What's wrong? Kissing spines? Ulcers?

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Evergreen

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I am going to have a chat with my vet tomorrow regarding my gelding who has recently had (unsuccessful) cortisone injections into both his spavined hocks.

There is obviously something else going on. These are his symptoms:

He is not lame. Hardly at all even after flexion and therefore not a candidate for nerve blocks. He has quite severe changes in both hocks however, hence the injections.

He has a saddle phobia which I have largely overcome with patience and clicker training. I have isolated the problem to his being girthed. Not when you actually do the girth up (he does not bite or kick or squirm or swish his tail), but when he tries to move after the girth is done up. He has to be girthed up one hole at a time and walked around inbetween. I have to ride with the girth quite loose. When I did it up from the saddle the other day he stood nicely, but then exploded when he walked forwards, bucking and rearing before freezing. I jumped off him and led him forward. He panicked again and his sides were quivering, but he was fine after a short lunge, when I got back on board.

He stands beautifully to be mounted.

He pins his ears and throws his head up when first being asked to trot. His trot is very pottery and his head carried high, ears back for the first few minutes, before he works beautifully.

He cannot canter very well and sometimes refuses to canter at all. He panics when being asked, pins his ears and the canter is very bouncy. He canters as though his hind legs are joined together. Again, this improves after a couple of minutes and he comes nice and round.

When ridden, he often stumbles behind and also treads on one hind with the other, but he does not do this on the lunge.

He hates the farrier, or having his feet picked out. He snatches his front legs away and kicks out with his hinds.

Teeth are regularly seen to.

Tack has been checked and both saddles fitted professionally.

Physio and chiropractor and vet all say he is not sore in his back.

I weight 9 stone 12 and he is a 16.1 hh 9 year old ex racer.

So, what do you think could be wrong? Could it be kissing spines as some have suggested on another thread, or ulcers? Or something else? Vet does not think it is either of these things due to no soreness in the back or other symptoms that could indicate ulcers, but could she be wrong?
 
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If he were mine, and were insured, I'd get a referral to Sue Dyson and ask her to try and figure it out.

ETA or, if not insured, retire/pts.
 
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Classic tying up! Yes often horses who are prone to it will be worse after a day off.

My boy is currently out of work because I have a broken knee, but when he's working, it's best to do something every day, and if he has a day off, really tone down the work level for a day or two.

Also have to keep him very very warm, feed him a no cereal, no sugar diet, and feed him lots of oil.
 
Is it not possible that all this is due to hock pain? It only takes one part of a horse to go wrong and it is only a matter of time before problems arise elsewhere through compensating. It might well be that his coping mechanisms for the hock problem aren't enough anymore and that if you can't fix the hocks, you won't be able to fix whatever has arisen due to that problem, if that makes sense.
 
Flame_ said:
Is it not possible that all this is due to hock pain? It only takes one part of a horse to go wrong and it is only a matter of time before problems arise elsewhere through compensating. It might well be that his coping mechanisms for the hock problem aren't enough anymore and that if you can't fix the hocks, you won't be able to fix whatever has arisen due to that problem, if that makes sense.
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Yes, it could well be. It is just so strange that he has not responded at all to the injections and his girthing problem is odd too. :confused:
 
Tr0uble said:
If you have a spare few hours, have a read of my blog....i started detailing the problems I was having with my boy....we've been through ulcers, unexplained issues...all turning out to be recurrent exertional rhabdomyolysis

http://parsnipper.blogspot.com/
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Thank you! Yes, I'll do that. Just going out to ride him now. I am trying a sachet of danilon to see if there is any change, but nothing the past two days.
 
In your other post I suggested kissing spine because your horse's reactions were almost identical to mine.

Neither my vet, McTimony or Physio could see a problem. There were no sore spots or muscle tension. I took my mare to my vets horspital because there was a back specialist visiting and we could get a second opinion. On trot ups and palpation he could see no problem and even remarked on how beautifully she moved, but thought he detected slight lameness on one hind, so suggested we lunge in the round pen.

I was tightening the roller and talking to him when, without thinking I tightened the roller quickly (instead of slowly, a hole at a time) and she exploded, nearly landing on top of us and then stood trembling. Both vets were stunned and immediately had her back x.rayed where it was found that she had 4 kissing spine under the saddle area.
 
I think possibly that if they have time to brace themselves against the pain then you don't get the dramatic reaction, but a sudden pressure, heavy weight or just a sudden turn means they don't have time to brace. I was told the pain is like an electric shock so no wonder you get such a dramatic reaction!
 
Thanks everyone. He is booked in for xrays of his back a week on Thursday. Hopefully nothing will be found and I can start to look for something else such as ulcers which are less invasive to treat.
 
I had identical symptoms with a pony mare a couple of years ago. She slammed me violently on the deck several times - and I don't bounce as easily as I used to! As she is the sweetest pony you could wish to meet in all other ways, I was sure there was a physical problem, not just temperamental.

X-rays didn't show anything wrong with spine. It was suggested that she should go down to Newmarket for deeper bone scans, but to be honest, I just couldn't afford it (already over insurance limit), especially as even that wasn't a guaranteed diagnosis, and merely the start of the next process, if anything did show up.

She's a full time nanny/companion now.

Anyway, the moral of the story is that the lack of anything showing on ordinary X-rays is not necessarily a definite NO for spinal problems, I was told. It merely eliminates Kissing Spines - there could be issues on the other facets of the vertabrae - which don't show on X-ray from above (evidently).

Good luck on Thursday. I hope you DO find something which can easily be sorted.
 
Just to let you all know, my boy was diagnosed with quite severe kissing spine. You would never think it to look at him stood there his chestnut coat gleaming and no tenderness at all along his back!
 
I am so sorry to hear this. My KS mare is chestnut, shiny, happy and retired to have babies. There is no constant pain or soreness from kissing spine, it's just when the bony spurs touch each other.

Will you be having surgery?
 
Really glad you have got to the bottom of this, and thank goodness you pushed for the xrays :)

Hopefully this is a lesson for everyone who gets the vet out, and the vet 'examine' the horses back and declares that there is nothing wrong with it.... or they don't get the vet at all and say their horse is cold backed.

My mare was diagnosed with kissing spines following intermitant explosive episodes, but was 'normal' inbetween, except that work appered to stress her. Fortunatly for her, as soon as told my vet about her behaviour he refered her for a bone scan.
 
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