What's wrong with breaking the law?

[polyphonic]

say it how i see it. YOU are breaking the law, regardless of how petty, absurd and completly off centre the law is. Coming on the HHO forum and makiong these statements are the reason people are most likely to call the police and send letters to the press. To be honest this martyr act doesnt wash. Laws are laws, regardless if you believe them to infringe your beliefs. If the law is adbsurd lobby and campaign your petition in the right way

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Well the simple answer is no. I'd rather just go out and commit crime.

I can't see who's going to stop me. I'm no martyr though, if they enforced the law I'd probably shoot the deer as required. After all i like a bit of venison! Fortunately (for the deer) they don't enforce the law.

As I said before I'm not from Tollpuddle but don't forget that the rights you enjoy today were won for you by criminals willing to flout unjust laws.

If it wasn't for people willing to break the law we'd still be serfs scratching in the dust for our feudal overlords.

Maybe also you could lighten up ba bit. Some crimes are just a laugh aren't they. There's nothing wrong with breaking the law if it's just for fun and you're doing no harm.

Would you kill for no reason just bhecause a bunch of ###holes in westminster can't make a decent law?

Have you ever thought of committing a crime Flintus? Go on! Give it a go! Loosen up, be a devil!

 

[polyphonic]

im sure many rapists have used the same defence in court that it was just abit of fun.]

i spent many of my teens committing crimes to pay for a habit, (certainly not proud of any of my actions or to the very people that i betrayed and hurt and misplaced their trust!) so yes, i have broken the law and its NOTHING to be proud of

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I think that is really my point. Rape is a disgusting horrible thing to do. That's why it should be against the law.

Refusing to kill a deer when there is no need to is not a disgusting horrible thing to do. That is why it should not be a crime. Going out with yopur pet dogs and letting them have a good run around of the lead is a wholesome, healthy thing to do. Just because it disturbs a few of the wild residents on a wood is not a good reason to ban it.

If they passed a law saying that you had to rape people then that law would be absurd. Refusing to obey such a law would be the right thing to do.

It is quite quite wrong to insist that people should obey absurd laws.

The law says that you can only flush out deer if you then shoot them. That law is absurd. I thinki we can all agree on that. It's not on a par with a law requiring rape but there are distinct similarities. I've heard hunting compared with slavery. In that vein the hunting act is like a law that says you can keep slaves but only if you shoot them when they run away. There's nothing wrong with refusing to kill deer. Refusing to obey the Hunting Act is the right thing to do.

I'm not particularily proud of breaking the Hunting Act but I do think it is both funny and worthwhile to break it. If I was one of the tollpuddle martyrs I'd be proud.of what I did. Those guys were criminals. They played a key role in getting you the rights you have today by breaking an unjust law.

I have a habit too. It involves going out with my dogs in the fresh air and having harmless wholesome fun.

 

[endymion]

Celt, just ignore him he's talking out of his backside. I have corresponded with the police in his area who have assured me they take illegal hunting very seriously and that Giles is not as open about breaking the law with them as he would like us all to believe.

 

[polyphonic]

Celt, just ignore him he's talking out of his backside. I have corresponded with the police in his area who have assured me they take illegal hunting very seriously and that Giles is not as open about breaking the law with them as he would like us all to believe.

where has this come from and who is giles?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

No Endy you wrote to the police claiming I had said that I handed in a film of myself hunting which of course I never have. They wrote back to you implying that I hadn't and I haven't.

You did say to me that you would find a link to where you allege I made such a claim. Of course you can't do that because your lying.

I think it is completely despicable that you should lie to the police in such a manner. How low can you go?

So you wrote to the police saying something that wasn't true and they wrote back saying it wasn't true. So what exactly?

As you are well aware all I have ever told the police is that I flush out deer with my four dogs and that rather than shooting the deer I allow my dogs to chase them.

How do you suggest I should prevent my dogs from flushing out deer Endy? If I do still flush out the deer do you think from their point of view it woulkd be better for them to be shot or to escape unharmed?

Personally I think I should just carry on flushing the deer out without shooting them. I thinkl that's the best thing to do all round.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I'm Giles Flintus.

Endimion is the guy who wrote to the police about me flintus. He claims that I've stated that I have handed in a video to the police. I've done no such thing. He's lying. If he wasn't then he'd be able to point out where I've made that claim.

BTW I'd be careful what you say about your past and various crimes.

He's a grass.

 

[polyphonic]

well ive was caught and punished for mine so im out the picture! but thanks for the warning!

 

[Tia]

Flintus;

If he kills the deer then he is NOT breaking the law.

If he does NOT kill the deer then he IS breaking the law.

Which would you choose to do? I would choose to break that law every day as I have no wish to shoot a deer just because my dogs happened to come across it whilst out for walkies.....

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Oh ok. Watch him though, because not only does he write to the police, he also lies to them.



He's quite fun to wind up though, I've made an art form of it! When he gets REALLY annoyed he get's very personal, accuses me of having no mates keeps saying that he's going down the pub with all HIS friends and rounds it off with 'I'm not debating with YA no more!"

HA HA!

As I was pointing out earlier antis get very annoyed when I mention the fact that the Hunting Act only allows deer to be flushed out if they are then shot.

I suspect that there's just an anomally in the law. It would be mad for me to shoot a deer if the people who made it had just made a simple mistake.

Animals shouldn't have to die for such a stupid reason.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

That's exactly it Tia!

It's a little ironic that some 'antis' seem to find me so offensive! Of course if they really put animal welfare first they'd be able to admit that I'm right. It's better not to kill the deer!

Unfortunately they put 'politics' (or is it just their over inflated ego) first.

 

[celt]

The Act makes it an offence for a person to hunt a wild mammal with a dog unless the hunting is exempt. For the purposes of the Act, the word ‘hunting’ has its ordinary English meaning, which includes searching for wild mammals, chasing them, or pursuing them for the purpose of catching or killing. The Act makes clear that a person will be hunting a wild mammal with a dog if he engages alone or participates with others in the pursuit of a wild mammal and a dog is employed in that pursuit, whether or not under his direct control. As hunting requires the intention to search for, chase or pursue the quarry, it is not possible to hunt by accident.



This is an extract from the Hunting Act of 2004 and it is clearly legible to any literate member on this site that you are only committing a crime if you purposefully go out to flush the target species i.e. deer as is the case in question. So for you to conveniently oversimplify the act by saying that any dog that flushes deer whether by accident or not can be disposed of is ludicrous, as is you’re claim that these flushed animals have to be shot.
I simply cant fathom you’re argument as infect you simply haven’t got an argument to put across.
If you are unable to control you’re dog’s when out in the field then I would suggest that you seek the aid of a dog trainer, I have many years experience in dog training and would be only too willing to assist you, just give me a call.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I've not said I accidently go out and flush deer. I flush deer out on purpose. I allways have done and I always will do. I do it by walking my dogs round my farm.

I've never said that if deer are accidently flushed out the law is being broken. I've saiod that if deer atre flushed out on purpose then the law is being broken and also that the law requires people to prevent their dogs flushing out wild mammals. Please don't misconstrue my argument, it's not constructive.

I could control my dogs to prevent deer being chased. I couldn't control them to prevent them flushing out deer. If I go into woods without dogs I still flush out the deer in them. Going into woods with dogs and not flushing out the deer is completely impossible.

However yes please could you explain to me how it would be possible to control dogs to prevent them flushing out deer. I don't think that is possible.

The Hunting Act means you have to stop your dogs flushing out deer. You can't just go into woods knowing they will flush out wild mammals and claim it was an accident. That's nonsense. If I could do that then I could go out with a pack of hounds knowing they were going to kill a fox and claim it was an accident.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

This is an extract from the Hunting Act of 2004

Also as an aside, that's NOT actually an extract from the Hunting Act 2004. I am actually literate. I've obtained legal advice from the Government about what the act means for me and have been told in no uncertain terms that I must now either stop my dogs flushing out deer or shoot the deer. I quite rightly refuse.

My question is why shouldn't I refuse to obey the law? Why would anyone take action against me for deliberately flushing out deer with dogs and letting them escape? The only thing they could force me to do is limit the number of dogs I use and shoot the deer. Why would anyone want to do that?

It can only be a good thing that I break the Hunting Act. I get wholesome exercise, my dogs have a great time and it reduces deer dammage to my coppice. There just isn't a downside to my particular crime.

This is the actual text of the law, if it helps:

http://www.opsi.gov.uk/acts/acts2004/20040037.htm

 

[endymion]

Flintus Giles like to have people believe that he openly flouts the law when in fact he only breaks it in secret away from the law. He is not the brave martyr he likes to make out, just a weak coward like the rest.

Come on Giles break the law in front of the police and show us all you are not full of sh*t!!

p.s I will happily grass up anyone who breaks the hunting act, in fact it is my mission to do so. However, when I wrote to the police in Giles's area it was a response to his claims that he had spoken to the police and they had told him to carry on hunting and that they wouldn't act. I wrote expressing my concerns that they were not enforcing the bill and they wrote back assuring me this was not true and that they would definitely act if sufficient evidence against Giles was found.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

No I don't break it in secret. I've never used my dogs to kill a wild animal and I never would. I'm not really sure that I even could, they are collies.

All I do is floush out and chase wild mammals with the dogs. Oh and search for them and scent trail them (although they are pretty bad at the scent trailing). Oh and also dispersing them.

I can't really understand why you insist that I am being secretive when I keep telling you exactly how I break the law.

You posted thnat you wrote to them claiming that I had said I handed a video in to them. Where did I make this claim?

 

[Ereiam_jh]

"Come on Giles break the law in front of the police and show us all you are not full of sh*t!!"

I did ask the police if they wanted to come down with me to my woods and watch me breaking the law. I've made that offer to IFAW, the RSPCA and LACS as well. However both have declined.

You'd be very welcome to come and film me breaking the law Endy. Just PM me and you can come down anytime. Don't worry I don't bite. We could have a beer in the pub afterwards. I'm actually a rather nice guy.

I'll pay your petrol expenses if you like.

I'm not sure how else I could break the law in front of them. Hunt for moles in the Constable's garden perhaps?

 

[endymion]

I think I've answered most of this in the above thread.

Thanks for your kind offer. I don't drive unfortunatley but if you could kindly arrange for a friend to film you and send it to me I would be more than happy to take on the role of complainant (sp?). Just remember to include the date (a shot of a newspaper would do) and visible shots of yourself or whoever else is involved. Crying the dogs is also quite helpful but silence will do, anything that clearly shows you a aware of the hunt but failing to call your dogs off.

Cheers :grin:

 

[Ereiam_jh]

I don't have an friends, remember?

I'll happily pay your bus/train/plane fare for the round trip and all reasonable expenses.

I'm quite serious. I'll book you on Flybe now if you are coming from Edinburgh. I can pick you up from Exeter.

I'm sure you could get down to Devon if you make it to Essex.

BTW did you write to Nigel as a result of the 'Get Giles Arrested!' post on the NELS site? That really would be deliciously ironic...

 

[endymion]

I'm in London at present actually so not that far after all! I'm sure we can come to some arrangement although not until uni ends in June as I'm too busy for holidaying in Devon at the moment. I could easy arrange transport Giles but I would of course bring a friend or two with me.

So roll on summer, this should be interesting.....(don't tell me that you only chase deer for fun in the hunting season??)

 

[Ereiam_jh]

That is brilliant! I'm really looking forward to it. Bring as many freinds as you like. We'll have a laugh and can go down the pub afterwards. If you like you can camp at my place, I have a summerhouse with a stove and there's a great view. Often you see the deer that I flush in the early morning across the valley.

I'd obviously like to keep it good natured so please none of the really nasty 'scum scum scum' crowd. I'm not 'scum' I'm a perfectly good natured human being and deserve to be treated as such.

Maybe we'll even end up as freinds eh?

 

[polyphonic]

now now ladies!! lol
i think this is just a personal debate between two people now!!

 

[endymion]

erm, well, miracles do happen! Why don't we get Thomas Faggus down and have a party, haha! Thats a joke by the way, I don't really want to do drinks with the Lord and High Protector of Exmoor.

No scum crowd will be invited, perhaps it will give you the opportunity to see all anti's aren't nut cases but many of us are just normal people who oppose hunting.

Get back to me on it around early July-ish and we'll sort something out.

Please remember that while I'm not gonna shout/scream/generally be a mentalist, I will report any illegal activities, even if we do get on. I don't want to be accused of doing anything underhand so I just want to lay my cards on the table.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Great stuff Endy. I do know not all antis are the 'scum crowd'.

I'm married to one and have two lovely anti children and one lovely pro ish child. I'm actually a lot more open minded than you might think. Yes maybe Tom would come down who knows and yes I'd be very happy for you to report any hunting related illegal activities. If you spot a dodgy tax disk or something then maybe not that!!

 

[wurzel]

Thats all right.

I don't believe you will ever come to Exmoor.

 

[Ereiam_jh]

Now now Tom, you KNOW the season for hitting antis on the National Park ends march 17th.

In July we smile nicely, serve them scones and cream and take the shekels.

 

[endymion]

You better watch yer step Faggus or yer going on my list of 'Not Very Nice People'. :grin: :grin: :grin:

 

[wurzel]

Nice ?!!!?!?

I can't think of anything worse.

Mr Floyd was out today. Full of conversation as usual!