When CAN'T a horse go barefoot?

dressagelove

dressagelove

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After having a good read through that thread the other day (not sure if I got the end of it mind), plus events which have happened today with my horse who is barefoot behind (dressage instructor thinks he CAN'T go barefoot) got me thinking.

I'm still learning about all this barefooted stuff, and was wondering, yes horses are individuals and you would judge them as such, but when, in particular can a horse not manage barefoot? Is it because of conformation, or what?

Not trying to start a fight, just want to learn :)
 
When the owner isn't able to provide the management needed (in the form of exercise, surfaces and diet) to keep the horse comfortable.

I firmly believe every horse has the potential to be rock crunching barefoot, but the way we manage are horses doesn't make it easy in a lot of cases. And most people are limited by the yards/grazing available to them
 
I'm not sure I'd trust anyone who didn't specialise in feet, so say whether my horse could/couldn't go barefoot.
My trimmer will be the one who tells me if my horse can handle it or not, which he said himself he'll do if she can't.
There's so many outside influences that affect whether your horse can do it successfully - so for me the answer to your question is - when the situation isn't right.
 
Have a look at www.hoof-help.co.uk, Sally Bells website. I,too,am new to barefoot, but Sally sort of 'came with' the horse I bought last October. My cob, Molly, certainly seems happy barefoot. Also look up Lucinda McAlpine, dressage rider. Her gorgeous horses are barefoot, rugless and totally happy and content. Good luck.
 
There are many instances when a horse can't go barefoot but conformation isn't one of them.

Having a healthy barefoot horse, anyone will tell you, is as easy as having a shod one. A hi-fibre, low sugar/starch diet. You may need to tweak it a bit according to each ned's needs.

If you can't provide that simple diet needed, then perhaps keep the shoes on because the bare hoof shows up sensitivities more easily which will manifest in discomfort when walking e.g. when fed grain or performance feeds, or access to lush grazing which can't be limited.

It's all about the diet - isn't everything? Although, there may factors that mean a horse can't go barefoot through injury for example.

Shoes are there to protect when the hoof cannot protect itself but in the main, a hoof is very capable :)

So, what makes your trainer think your horse cannot go without shoes?
 
Thanks for the replies :)

Tallyho- its a long story! My horse had his hind shoes off a month or so ago, was extremely lame and footsore immediately. He has come sound now, but is still unhappy doing the amount of work he was doing before... even on a surface. I had a dressage lesson today on him (which I now realise he can't do yet, his feet aren't good enough the do the same amount of work he was doing before I suppose).

But my trainer said she doesn't think he is the type of horse who can go barefoot. He has NO heel, terribly under-run heel, long toes, usual TB story. And he has unusual hind leg conformation, his hooves are miles forwards of his actual leg if that makes sense. I can post a picture if needed :) And although the theory for barefoot is only for an 'ideal world' (her words) not all horses can do it, and mine can't.... I tried to fight the barefoot corner, but I am still learning myself and couldn't be very convincing yet! Still unsure whether my boy can, hence this thread :D

Re. having the right conditions to transition, I think I do... we have our own farm, lots of land, few different surfaces etc... and Im willing to address the diet.
 
Given time, the hoof adapts incredibly! It's amazing to watch for the first time.

Yeah, why not post a photo, the more experienced members (trimmers, farriers, owners etc) may be able to help. Not saying you can and should go bf but perhaps people could point you in the direction of getting a healthier hoof whether or not barefoot comes into it :)
 
I don't necessarily believe it is all to do with the 'right diet' to be honest. A horse is supposed to live on a diet of grass (mixed grasses) not well fertlised pasture and they are supposed to walk for it so our domestication of the horse affects this natural behaviour and unless you have very large fields then most horses do naff all to get their food and also pastures these days are probably too rich in most instances. So, I think it plays a part.

However, we have 5 horse and 12 acres of i would say mixed grass, it doesn't get fertilised just gets rested (split in to two paddocks). 3 of the horses, a youngster 3, pony, 26 and TB x Lusitano 12 have very good feet, nice and solid and we don't really have problems. However, my horse who has been on the field for about the same time as the piny (17 years) has crap feet and always has. They are not flat but in fact quiet upright and we can have a nightmare shoeing him as he'll suffer nailbind and abscesses on occasion. He has think walls i am told and that cannot be changed by diet. He would not be able to go barefoot - his feet can be brittle and crack (not so much these days as I have supplemented him) and he can lose chunks but more he is just soo sensitive and will 'hobble' if he even touches stoney ground without a shoe on.

People try and say it can take 6 mths or longer for them to 'get used' to not having shoes but I for one would not put my horse through the pain and discomfort of that. Pkus I think our use of them - hacking on a lot of roads and stoney tracks plus jumping and XC does etc can wear feet down a lot more than a horse who is roaming miles in the wild as it's more unnatural.

On the flip side i am going to try and keep my youngster without shoes for as long as posisble but mainly to let his feet grow a natural shape. If he does manage without shoes then fine but if not then he'll have shoes on.

It also worries me that there are these people out there cliaming to be 'barefoot trimmers' yet they have little training in what they do. Even more worrying is people wth no more knowledge than me thining they can go read a book and get the tools and do it themselves!! A farrier can trim feet properly - farriers do not HAVE to put shoes on and they have trained and qualified in their job. Of course, i know some trimmers have the training but there seemed to be a heck of a lot out there who are "self taught". That worries me.
 
Not keen on the barefoot evangelism, BUT I have 3 horses who are not shod. Shoes were invented 1,800 years ago FOR A REASON. However, the vast majority of modern horses do not need to be shod: some do.
 
Going through the barefoot route myself I believe there are a lot of factors but given the chance to grow a new hoof (12 months or so) without shoes I think most horses who are also given the right environment will adapt. Other factors such as thrush may play a part. Diet is key, environment eg lots of movement, different surfaces too. I do also think that shoes can mask a lot of problems.

Horses who only work on the road every day eg police horses or carriage horses working the seafronts, I imagine must need shoes?
 
Jericho said:
Horses who only work on the road every day eg police horses or carriage horses working the seafronts, I imagine must need shoes?
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Not necessarily :D
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success_Houston1.html. Also I believe police horses in Winnipeg (Canada), Phoenix (US) and Perth (Australia) have unshod working horses. I don't have offroad hacking, so all my hacking miles are on tarmac, suits my horses's feet very well :)
 
ladyt25 said:
A horse is supposed to live on a diet of grass (mixed grasses) not well fertlised pasture
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A horse is designed to live on a diet of scrub, not grass, and to roam 20 miles a day finding enough scrub to eat. That's why so many horses have foot sensitivity problems on grass of any kind, and many are best kept off grass during daylight hours when the grass sugars are highest.
 
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dressagelove said:
And he has unusual hind leg conformation, his hooves are miles forwards of his actual leg if that makes sense.
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This kind of conformation can take 9 months to rebuild the heels on the back feet enough to put the coffin bone at the right angle to the floor. He possibly has negative coffin bone angle and it's unfortunately not a quick fix. Does the front of his foot bow outwards?
 
cptrayes said:
This kind of conformation can take 9 months to rebuild the heels on the back feet enough to put the coffin bone at the right angle to the floor. He possibly has negative coffin bone angle and it's unfortunately not a quick fix. Does the front of his foot bow outwards?
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Here a pic :)

IMG00360-20120405-1535.jpg


Does that help show what I mean?
 
cptrayes said:
A horse is designed to live on a diet of scrub, not grass, and to roam 20 miles a day finding enough scrub to eat. That's why so many horses have foot sensitivity problems on grass of any kind, and many are best kept off grass during daylight hours when the grass sugars are highest.
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Ah, you know that's the point I was making. Grass, scrub, whatever - basically I was saying they were not designed to be enclosed in paddocks with rich grasses (that mixed with stables and hard feed).
 
So, so far from replies, any horse CAN go barefoot with the right conditions, diet, surfaces, work etc? I was getting the impression from that other thread that people thought some horses could not go barefoot? But I'm confused as to why?
 
A lot depends on owner, horse and discipline. I think a lot is often discussed here about owner, diet, ability of the individual horse etc, but as regards discipline I find it interesting to compare. There are dressage horses at high level that are barefoot. I believe the stallions from the Spanish riding school are barefoot for example, and there was one GP rider that was competing internationally that had a few horses barefoot - will post her name if I remember. There is a racing stable that races them barefoot on the flat and over fences too. Again can't remember name! Lots of endurance horses are barefoot at high level from what I understand. But I have never heard of a horse go round Badminton or top international level eventing or GP show jumping barefoot though would be interesting if anyone can come up with some :)

I think with some dressage riders, in my experience anyway, they push youngsters quite hard - perhaps beyond what foot structure can take at that time. Often the muscles of a youngster will adapt to the demands of training quicker than the hoof. They put on shoes and say the horse moves better and is more confident with shoes - which may be the case, but given time, correct stimulus and correct diet, perhaps the horse could be barefoot. Maybe not though.

I had had some of my horses barefoot and some shod according to what I was doing with them. I do find if on long grass barefoot horses can slip a little and I do prefer studs on some cross country courses, though have ridden round intermediate courses barefoot before with no problems. Each to their own really :) I MUCH prefer barefoot on roads as more grip. Being older and less competative these days my preference would be barefoot with my next horse. However, if I had a horse that was not comfortable and could not do the job I wanted barefoot, I would not hesitate to shoe.
 
As always there are exceptions to every rule my wb is bare behind and has great feet but my 21 year old has to have shoes on as she has arthritis in her hocks and the way they were fusing was causing uneven wear on her hoof wall and sole on her barefoot hinds after looking at her exrays with vet and farrier we decided to put backs back on as she was getting very sore. That was 6 years ago and she is sound, had joint injections too, and running around like a two year old.
 
Brightbay said:
Not necessarily :D
http://www.thehorseshoof.com/success_Houston1.html. Also I believe police horses in Winnipeg (Canada), Phoenix (US) and Perth (Australia) have unshod working horses. I don't have offroad hacking, so all my hacking miles are on tarmac, suits my horses's feet very well :)
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Thats really quite interesting - thanks for posting - again its the horses ability GIVEN TIME to grow its own hoof as nature intended which seems important and amazing (although as the poster with the arthiritic mare showed nature does sometime need a helping hand !)
 
Iv got bare foot horses who cope fine and will never be shod but iv also got a horse who will not cope without shoes. The time he was bare foot iv never seen him so un happy, footy, lame, and unable to do any work at all. Now I know some off you would say " well he's got under laying problems" well maybe but nobody can leave a horse that uncomfy and now he's re shod he's back in work and enjoying myself back to normal.
I don't believe all horses can go bare foot and the fact you get many threads on here saying their horses are sore and footy makes me wonder if horses are suffering in the hands off people trying.
 
I'm coming round to the whole barefoot thing in a big way. My TB mare is hopping lame without shoes, I always dismissed it as just being her and that there was nothing 'under lying'... now she is heading to the vets foir a lameness work up and it looks like she does have front foot issues. Maybe I should have paid more attention when she lost a front shoe and became 3 legged. If she is diagnosed with foot problems then I will take her b/f, in fact even if she isn't I'm tempted to do it anyway... I guess what I'm saying is that I thought my girl couldn't go b/f but now it might be her only option....

I pulled shoes off my other TB in Jan as he had a history of swelling in his legs... his feet are changing daily and he is super sound and moving beautifully on them. It hasnt taken long and I plan to keep him b/f. It does take a bit of effort but it's gotta be worth it in the long run.
 
thatsmygirl said:
I don't believe all horses can go bare foot and the fact you get many threads on here saying their horses are sore and footy makes me wonder if horses are suffering in the hands off people trying.
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As opposed to all shod horses suffer nothing whatsoever? It's an interesting point of view I'll give you that.

"footy" means different things to different people so I don't know if thats a good marker for level of sensitivity people want to convey. Maybe a scale is needed. Even shod horses get footy...
 
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dressagelove said:
Here a pic :)

IMG00360-20120405-1535.jpg


Does that help show what I mean?
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Well that's a HUGE yes then. Your horse has bullnose feet. In my own experience these are related to metabolic issues with horses getting more carbohydrates (mostly sugars) than they can safely digest.

The lump on the front of the foot is, I believe, where the point of the pedal bone is poking into the front of the hoof instead of pointing slightly downwards like it should be. If so, it's there because his heels are so weak and have too little depth to them. This foot conformation is not genetic, it can be changed, and should be. It is very, very often associated with back pain. The back pain is a result of the wrong coffin bone angle, not the cause.

This kind of foot takes a diet change (strip sugar/molasses completely, restrict daytime grazing, consider mineral balancing) to get right and even then it takes 6-9 months of consistent work on surfaces that will stimulate the rear of the horse's feet.

If you got xrays of those feet I think you would see that the coffin bone is at the wrong angle and be advised to shoe him with wedges on the hind feet. This would make him immediately looser in his back - and solve nothing longer term.

I would persevere with barefoot but look very, very closely at his diet.


ps some people will tell you that he is just wearing his toes in your arena surface. That is not the case. Toe wear generally takes off the bottom third of the hoof wall. To get the bump that you have half way up the foot, in my experiece, is a bullnose due to weak heels unable to hold the pedal bone into its correct angle.
 
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OP - it's taken five months for my mare to even be not footsore behind - you have no idea how I thought about giving up and putting shoes back on her. Admittedly she wasn't in work and only getting a few hours turnout each day due to the weather and her leg ailments, but she is now bouncing on the long lines down the road every day - she wears hoof boots on the fronts which she thinks are the equivalent of Nike Airs, but not a hint of footiness behind, even on the stones on the narrow lanes..... it's your decision at the end of the day - if your horse is happier in shoes, then so be it - I agree with barefoot (or unshod - whatever you want to call it) and the principles and I did it because of all the conditions my horse has - but if she hadn't got those conditions, and hadn't been lame, I would probably have carried on shoeing, oblivious to the fact that she could be happy without shoes. I don't agree with every horse being able to go barefoot, I really don't.
 
well...i guess im lucky i have a on shoes off shoes horse lol, hes shod all summer because hes in hard work...then when work slows down over winter hes barefoot, and tbh after 3 months off he came back to work with no shoes and managed great...over stones and grass and every kind of terrain....but last month he had shoes put on cos basically i felt his hoof was wearing dwn too much as his work was upped.....come oct hell be shoeless until feb march ! all horses are diff hes a dales but my youngster...tbx has also been bf all winter and only had shoes on last month, the ish tho well shes had shoes all year cos i just dnt think shed manage bf !...unless i gave her a year off slumming in the field (which will not be feesable) :)
 
horseandshoes77 said:
well...i guess im lucky i have a on shoes off shoes horse lol, hes shod all summer because hes in hard work...then when work slows down over winter hes barefoot, and tbh after 3 months off he came back to work with no shoes and managed great...over stones and grass and every kind of terrain....but last month he had shoes put on cos basically i felt his hoof was wearing dwn too much as his work was upped.....come oct hell be shoeless until feb march ! all horses are diff hes a dales but my youngster...tbx has also been bf all winter and only had shoes on last month, the ish tho well shes had shoes all year cos i just dnt think shed manage bf !...unless i gave her a year off slumming in the field (which will not be feesable) :)
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I have found the more a hoof is worn down (either from road riding or rasping the more it grows. But it does take a day or two to "catch up".
 
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