ester
Not slacking multitasking
no, how strange as it seems to work for IHW!? the first one gives me allrounders tonbridge, the second allrounders huddersfield 
When did an 80/90 'eventer' become special?
- Thread starter ycbm
- Start date
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I’d be looking at neither. But might consider a trip if the first was half the price and local.
But this I would take a punt on if I didn’t have my giant in the stable
http://www.horseandhound.co.uk/clas...h/lovely-5yr-gelding-bred-to-jump-499236.html
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LeannePip
Well-Known Member
Yes same, very smart!
Meredith
riding reluctantly into the sunset
I thought this Ester. I am looking for my next horse and although I do not want or need the standard discussed here I have baulked at travelling to distant places. I have seen more suitable horses far from my home than close to it but the risk of wasted travel and the practicality of buying at such long distance defeats me.
{97702}
...
Ah things aren't what they used to be..... 
When I moved to Gloucestershire 20 years ago I could go to at least half a dozen local XC courses which started at 2'3" and went up to 3'6" (so is that 80cm and 110cm in today's money?)
Nowadays they are ALL shut. You don't get the opportunity to practice without going a LOT further afield at a much greater cost.... at least the same number of local BE events have stopped running for financial reasons so you have to travel further.... it costs a LOT of money to compete nowadays IMHO and hence I would rather have a horse I know can do it, even at lower levels
I am 47 now and have done all the aspirational stuff.... I remember being in tears with terror before the SJ in a Pre-Novice let alone the XC at Berrington Hall..... I want to have fun, relax and enjoy myself, and if people want to sneer that this is at BE80 and BE90 that is up to them, I'm not bothered
I took on my loan horse as a very green 6YO worth £1,500 according to his owner - I aspire to get him reliably consistent at BE90, maybe even the Championships, who knows - I don't care what he is worth (permanent loan thank goodness!) but I can see that he will be the sort of horse that people would pay money for.
In the same way as a recent thread in the Hunting part of the forum - things change? It doesn't make them wrong, just different
When I moved to Gloucestershire 20 years ago I could go to at least half a dozen local XC courses which started at 2'3" and went up to 3'6" (so is that 80cm and 110cm in today's money?)
Nowadays they are ALL shut. You don't get the opportunity to practice without going a LOT further afield at a much greater cost.... at least the same number of local BE events have stopped running for financial reasons so you have to travel further.... it costs a LOT of money to compete nowadays IMHO and hence I would rather have a horse I know can do it, even at lower levels
I am 47 now and have done all the aspirational stuff.... I remember being in tears with terror before the SJ in a Pre-Novice let alone the XC at Berrington Hall..... I want to have fun, relax and enjoy myself, and if people want to sneer that this is at BE80 and BE90 that is up to them, I'm not bothered
I took on my loan horse as a very green 6YO worth £1,500 according to his owner - I aspire to get him reliably consistent at BE90, maybe even the Championships, who knows - I don't care what he is worth (permanent loan thank goodness!) but I can see that he will be the sort of horse that people would pay money for.
In the same way as a recent thread in the Hunting part of the forum - things change? It doesn't make them wrong, just different
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I know from experiance that you cant easily find a made 90cm horse (as in has won at that level BE ) who Is approaching the prime of life with good conformation and paces with scope and to progress and correct safe technique for much less that 10k.
You will find lots of horses to view cheaper but you wont what to sit on many of them .
Mule
Well-Known Member
You're right. It's supposed to be fun. For most of us, horses are just a hobby. Whether someone wants to jump 1 foot or 3 feet it makes no difference to anyone else.Lévrier;13703346 said:Ah things aren't what they used to be.....
When I moved to Gloucestershire 20 years ago I could go to at least half a dozen local XC courses which started at 2'3" and went up to 3'6" (so is that 80cm and 110cm in today's money?)
Nowadays they are ALL shut. You don't get the opportunity to practice without going a LOT further afield at a much greater cost.... at least the same number of local BE events have stopped running for financial reasons so you have to travel further.... it costs a LOT of money to compete nowadays IMHO and hence I would rather have a horse I know can do it, even at lower levels
I am 47 now and have done all the aspirational stuff.... I remember being in tears with terror before the SJ in a Pre-Novice let alone the XC at Berrington Hall..... I want to have fun, relax and enjoy myself, and if people want to sneer that this is at BE80 and BE90 that is up to them, I'm not bothered
I took on my loan horse as a very green 6YO worth £1,500 according to his owner - I aspire to get him reliably consistent at BE90, maybe even the Championships, who knows - I don't care what he is worth (permanent loan thank goodness!) but I can see that he will be the sort of horse that people would pay money for.
In the same way as a recent thread in the Hunting part of the forum - things change? It doesn't make them wrong, just different
Remi'sMum
Well-Known Member
This100%. Having recently bought a new horse after 5 arduous and depressing months of viewing misadvertised horses, I can totally say that one that knows the job and does it well is worth its weight in gold. Sellers very often seem to have a totally unrealistic view of what they have got eg. 16.2, 6 yr old Irish with unrecorded breeding, glaring conformation faults, unschooled and so unbalanced, no hope of even getting round an intro dressage test with anything remotely resembling a reasonable mark, plenty of scope to jump (saw video of it jumping round a small course but seller declined to jump it for me at the viewing with no reasonable explanation) but conformation so worrying chances are it wouldnt stay sound. Advertised at£6k. That being just one example of the myriad I viewed where the price seemed totally disproportionate to the quality/training/experience of the animal being sold.
For some riders, me included, jumping round an 80 is an aspiration. On the horse I eventually bought, this aspiration becomes all about me, as the horse is very experienced, honest and takes care of his rider. I just need to hitch up my brave pants and crack on. Although learning to ride all over again as he's certainly not push button and very different in so many ways to my previous horse. But with many that I viewed, Id have been buying trouble and something that wouldve knocked my confidence further instead of helping me improve. Despite them being advertised as confidence giver, perfect RC horse etc etc.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
As I said before, RM, jumping 80cm was at one point in time an aspiration for every one of us. This is not about the rider.
This is about the fact that we seem to have lost sight of what was once common knowledge, that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry of a horse can jump 90cm with very little training. (Consistently winning at BE is a different story).
I think people have hit the nail on the head when they say it was when the smaller heights were introduced at shows.
Those smaller heights have led to people believing that it's now a special horse that can jump a course which is three or even four heights up in the schedule, 90cm. And now we have an industry of trainers, and 'Pro riders' riding at that height reinforcing that view.
I think it's great that so many people are getting out having fun, though.
This is about the fact that we seem to have lost sight of what was once common knowledge, that almost every Tom, Dick and Harry of a horse can jump 90cm with very little training. (Consistently winning at BE is a different story).
I think people have hit the nail on the head when they say it was when the smaller heights were introduced at shows.
Those smaller heights have led to people believing that it's now a special horse that can jump a course which is three or even four heights up in the schedule, 90cm. And now we have an industry of trainers, and 'Pro riders' riding at that height reinforcing that view.
I think it's great that so many people are getting out having fun, though.
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Bernster
Well-Known Member
I'm a bit in both camps in some ways. I know that jumping 80/90 courses really should be/is within the grasp of most sound horses and isn't that big an issue for them. But on the rider side, im still in those titchy classes and have been the whole time I've been riding. May well stay there as I can't seem to crack doing an 80.
Venues introduced smaller classes presumably due to rider demand, so it's a bit chicken and egg - riders somewhere along the way have changed and want something smaller. And as a result many peeps perhaps do think that 80/90 is a feat for their horse. And the market reflects rider demand for that type of horse. I agree there is a big range as these horses could go for 2/3k all the way to 10k. I'd generally expect to pay somewhere in the middle.
Venues introduced smaller classes presumably due to rider demand, so it's a bit chicken and egg - riders somewhere along the way have changed and want something smaller. And as a result many peeps perhaps do think that 80/90 is a feat for their horse. And the market reflects rider demand for that type of horse. I agree there is a big range as these horses could go for 2/3k all the way to 10k. I'd generally expect to pay somewhere in the middle.
ycbm
Overwhelmed
I think it's great that people have put new classes in for me now in too old to jump the big stuff
And seriously, bravery is about fear. It's not brave to do something you aren't afraid of, and there are a lot of 70 and 80 riders being braver than those jumping bigger stuff.
And seriously, bravery is about fear. It's not brave to do something you aren't afraid of, and there are a lot of 70 and 80 riders being braver than those jumping bigger stuff.
Ambers Echo
Still wittering on
I think it's fantastic that you can now event over smaller courses. It has made eventing accessible to people for whom Novice+ is totally out of reach. But is also means that people are advertising 'Eventers' when they mean PC/RC allrounders. And adding 5k to the price!
In my RC and in PC there are a tiny handful of riders who event at BE100, Novice or 1* and they have the ponies/horses at that sort of price range. But most of my riding friends are firmly in the 80/90/100 camp - but they are competitive there. They have normal horses and ponies and they do just fine riding horses who cost between 2 and 5K.
The more expensive horses are not necessarily going to be easier to ride. Just because one rider has proven that a horse can perform well at BE90 (ie a 'proven' eventer) does not mean that the new rider will be able to. You can detrain and unschool a horse very very quickly if you buy a horse who is a much better horse than you are a rider.
In my RC and in PC there are a tiny handful of riders who event at BE100, Novice or 1* and they have the ponies/horses at that sort of price range. But most of my riding friends are firmly in the 80/90/100 camp - but they are competitive there. They have normal horses and ponies and they do just fine riding horses who cost between 2 and 5K.
The more expensive horses are not necessarily going to be easier to ride. Just because one rider has proven that a horse can perform well at BE90 (ie a 'proven' eventer) does not mean that the new rider will be able to. You can detrain and unschool a horse very very quickly if you buy a horse who is a much better horse than you are a rider.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Yes this one looks a good buy as long as you want a very big horse that this one looks like he will make when mature.
I hope he finds a great home .
I want horse between 16 and 16.1 and finding good athletic horse at this height is not easy .
ycbm
Overwhelmed
The market for smaller horses does seem to be very tight, GS, doesn't it? Have people stopped breeding the 15.2-16.1 sports horse?
HufflyPuffly
Well-Known Member
Off topic but I found this ^ I went with buying unpopular breeding (carriage bred) and have the ride on two lovely talented horses who can turn their hooves to anything both under 16hh. The musing from breeders I've seen on fb (super reliable
) is that the small ones don't sell...On topic, I think I must mix in different circles (or maybe it's the DIY people I know?) but I'm not sure I know many people who would/have spent more than 5K on a horse. Most of us are the RC low level people being talked about, maybe it's regional, I'm NW? Round here spending 10K on a low level all-rounder would cause a lot of laughter and the phrase "maybe when I win the lottery"...
Orangehorse
Well-Known Member
You are right about this. In The Event Horse by Sheila Wilcox she says that any correctly trained horse should be able to jump the height of an event course (of course I realise that event courses have become much more technical).
There simply aren't the courses around now. Most hunts, riding clubs run Pleasure Rides, much easier to organise and much fewer expenses. The rules and regulations of putting on an event - ambulance and veterinary cover, getting all the fence judges, etc. etc. mean that it is a struggle for small clubs to arrange so they stick to what is easy and more lucrative.
There used to be a hunter trial nearly every weekend in spring and summer around here - sadly the only ones now are run at purpose built event courses (good) but they are getting fewer.
ihatework
Well-Known Member
I’ve got a rather stonking balou du Rouet 2yo that might only make that height! Might limit how much I can ride him. Good motivation to diet
Jango
Well-Known Member
There's a huge difference between horses that will happily get round a 90 with 4 faults and a mid 30s dressage and horses that are seriously competitive at 90. There is a fairly limited pool of horses that are trainable, can move well enough for sub 25 dressage, careful sj and bold xc. This is what you need to get to badminton and the uncomplicated ones cost a lot as a lot of people want this kind of horse!
windand rain
Well-Known Member
Well as my 13hh highland pony who isnt really designed to jump or do dressage can win and be placed at UA 90cm one day events I would guess most average horses if given the right rider could do the same having said that her rider was a total novice , pony was a 6 year old, at x country when they started out so not exactly experts either of them in fact the young lady in question was a bit scared and nervous for a start. My guess would be that its a market driven thing you pay your money and take your chance with horses and if you are daft enough to part with that kind of money then taking the gamble on whether it will do the job for you is probably what you deserve. There is a distinct lack of well mannered, capable grassroots horses around as everyone got into breeding flashy unridable wambloods that break easily so maybe it is a rarity value who knows. 50 years ago when I was eventing the jumps were far more challenging, bigger even if they were supposed to be 2ft9in and stopped far more horses completing the course. My second horse was the only one to complete in his first one day event He won on a penalty dressage score of 83 so far from a dressage horse but in those days all you needed was a great jumper who jumped clean and fast round both showjumps and x counrty fences and was fit enough to do the roads and traacks section if there was one. Fastest/ lowest penalties horse round won.
EventingMum
Well-Known Member
I agree with what people saying, eventing, and show jumping for that matter, are very different from years gone by. Training and education is more readily available to riders now which is obviously a good thing. I think in the past many of riders were a lot more gung-ho and just got on with the job rather than worrying were they up to standard and over analysing their performance and that of their horses.
The influence of dressage, as has been said, on eventing scores, has made a huge difference to the "ideal" low level eventer. In the past there were a lot of 3/4 bred to full Tb's who were bold and scopey which was probably the main factor in choosing an eventer. Now there are far more flashy horses with warmblood breeding, usually of continental origins who perhaps find the dressage easier and have flashy, more extravagent paces and gain better marks more easily - not saying that's the way it should be judged but IMO it often can be.
From what I've seen the fancier warmbloods with an extensive pedregree seem to comand a higher price even before they've proven themselves. A friend bought a super 4 yo from Cavan sales at a very reasonable price and he would compare well against his continental counterparts in my book with correct paces and a super temperament but perhaps lacks that "look at me" flashiness. He has limited breeding recorded and certainly doesn't have a five word van der whatever name but is an ideal type to be an eventer. Perhaps the inflated warmblood prices have started to rub off on the market in general?
I also think the professional producers have taken full advantage of the gap there was in the market and who can blame them? They can command high prices for nicely produced grassroots horses that perhaps lack the talent to progress but are ideal for the rider who wants to be competitive at the lower levels on a well schooled horse who looks the part.
The influence of dressage, as has been said, on eventing scores, has made a huge difference to the "ideal" low level eventer. In the past there were a lot of 3/4 bred to full Tb's who were bold and scopey which was probably the main factor in choosing an eventer. Now there are far more flashy horses with warmblood breeding, usually of continental origins who perhaps find the dressage easier and have flashy, more extravagent paces and gain better marks more easily - not saying that's the way it should be judged but IMO it often can be.
From what I've seen the fancier warmbloods with an extensive pedregree seem to comand a higher price even before they've proven themselves. A friend bought a super 4 yo from Cavan sales at a very reasonable price and he would compare well against his continental counterparts in my book with correct paces and a super temperament but perhaps lacks that "look at me" flashiness. He has limited breeding recorded and certainly doesn't have a five word van der whatever name but is an ideal type to be an eventer. Perhaps the inflated warmblood prices have started to rub off on the market in general?
I also think the professional producers have taken full advantage of the gap there was in the market and who can blame them? They can command high prices for nicely produced grassroots horses that perhaps lack the talent to progress but are ideal for the rider who wants to be competitive at the lower levels on a well schooled horse who looks the part.
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I’ve got a rather stonking balou du Rouet 2yo that might only make that height! Might limit how much I can ride him. Good motivation to diet
If You want to you will be able to sell him ten times over if he’s a nice natured easy person .
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
I think you are correct and why should a nice well produced horse who will arrive on yard and do a job not command a decent price lots of people want to ride a nice horse and don’t want to jump a metre twenty plus no problem with that .
Many of us drive lovely cars capable of performance we will never test it’s not a lot different .
Annagain
Well-Known Member
If share horse's owner and I had a pound for every instructor who have told us M is wasted with us and could have "gone advanced" (eventing) in the right hands we'd be very very rich. His owner bought him for peanuts as a very green 5 year old. We don't care, he is adored, lives the life of riley, going strong at 22 and we've had 16 years of fun out of him. How is that a waste?
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ester
Not slacking multitasking
Off topic but I found this ^ I went with buying unpopular breeding (carriage bred) and have the ride on two lovely talented horses who can turn their hooves to anything both under 16hh. The musing from breeders I've seen on fb (super reliable
On topic, I think I must mix in different circles (or maybe it's the DIY people I know?) but I'm not sure I know many people who would/have spent more than 5K on a horse. Most of us are the RC low level people being talked about, maybe it's regional, I'm NW? Round here spending 10K on a low level all-rounder would cause a lot of laughter and the phrase "maybe when I win the lottery"...
Similar circles, I know the odd person who has spent that on something that has consequently broke but when I say it is ok I am not talking for an all rounder, I am talking consistent enough to get someone as an 'ok' rider to badminton for at least a couple of years if they want to, as such 80/90 is probably way below their natural ability. Those that I have known buy around the 4-5k mark have either been masses of talent but requiring a lot of bringing on, or significantly quirky in some other way that you need to handle or ride them. They aren't a throw on the lorry on your own, go for a fun day out and still be consistently top 10 types. I know one horse like that but he has bilateral spavins so won't do it forever and wouldn't be worth the 10k as a result he is a really good egg sort though.
Bernster
Well-Known Member
Some great comments and discussion here.
Love the comment ycbm about bravery/fear. I never thought about it like that but I am def pushing my comfort zone in aiming for a BE80 (although still not sure I'll get there tbh).
In terms of the price range, seems like we're talking maybe a difference of £2/3 - top end maybe 5k more for what people think is a good price. Isn't that because there is a big difference with something that could get round an 80/90 in an ok fashion with a decent rider, versus a proven straightfoward eventer, doing it consistently and well, with a novice/nervous rider. Potential or possibility, versus a schoolmaster (who can stay a schoolmaster even with a less capable rider). That price range doesn't seem so odd to me.
ETA oh, and location too - suspect SE prices might be a bit higher!
Love the comment ycbm about bravery/fear. I never thought about it like that but I am def pushing my comfort zone in aiming for a BE80 (although still not sure I'll get there tbh).
In terms of the price range, seems like we're talking maybe a difference of £2/3 - top end maybe 5k more for what people think is a good price. Isn't that because there is a big difference with something that could get round an 80/90 in an ok fashion with a decent rider, versus a proven straightfoward eventer, doing it consistently and well, with a novice/nervous rider. Potential or possibility, versus a schoolmaster (who can stay a schoolmaster even with a less capable rider). That price range doesn't seem so odd to me.
ETA oh, and location too - suspect SE prices might be a bit higher!
PaddyMonty
Well-Known Member
I just wonder how long these push button 90cm horses bought for 12k upwqards remain so after perhaps less than helpful trips round courses with inexperienced riders?
Goldenstar
Well-Known Member
Here the knack is buying a horse who has been doing exactly the job you are buying him for .
So a amateur produced grass roots horse is likely to do that with a similar rider , buying a not quite good enough for the top levels horse from a pro is much more risky .
ApolloStorm
Well-Known Member
I am having a problem with people not wanting to pay asking for my mare! 6yo, 16hh good hunter stamp, has hunted and is a machine, but also happily doing prelim at comps and has basics of the lateral work, works round and through. Jumps anything with a decent technique, honest as the day is long, would go out and do BE90 tomorrow. No quirks or vices. She's the type to adapt to the rider, had a couple people who were nervous and they tried her, but she was " too steady" when they'd just watched her jump round a couple mtr fences with me.. the mind boggles! Asking is what both me & RI think is below market value! she's totally produced by me- a not very good amateur with the help of a good instructor! By the sound of this thread I should keep her, get her out at couple of 90s for summer and I could double my asking. Mad.
ester
Not slacking multitasking
get her out to a couple as soon as the season starts in March . It proves a fair few things, she might be very capable but tricky to start XC (know one of those, has never started properly) etc so if you have a couple of on the board people can see that it is all ok. I think that is the difficulty buying and selling, the seller might know that the horse will be absolutely fine doing everything, without a record it is hard for the buyer to know that so prove it and people start being much keener
. It proves a fair few things, she might be very capable but tricky to start XC (know one of those, has never started properly) etc so if you have a couple of on the board people can see that it is all ok. I think that is the difficulty buying and selling, the seller might know that the horse will be absolutely fine doing everything, without a record it is hard for the buyer to know that so prove it and people start being much keener
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ApolloStorm
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately I do really need to sell fairly soon! She's hunted, XC schooled. Everything except done an actual run, perhaps thats the missing link! personally I don't think £4k for something as safe and sensible with a reasonable level of talent is over doing it! I see things which are much greener than her up for £5.5-£6k! I just laugh when people ask if ill take £1k!