When do you call it a day? (rambling, sorry).

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Cedars

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Had diagnosis of chronic arthritis in our big boy's hocks today.

Nerve blocks on Thursday to establish where exactly it is although pretty certain hocks. Then potentially steroid injections to keep sound for a year, maybe two. Eventing career out window anyway.

He is never leaving us, never being sold on, but when do you call it a day? Previously I would have said when not continuously sound, but now I can't bear to lose him and I'm thinking well, is it when not hacking sound? When not field sound? When not field sound on painkillers?

Sorry, what a ramble =[
 
well in my experience obviously your horses quality of life is the most important i have 2 that have had bad arthritis and i have another who has it at the mo and if i cant keep her comfortable in the field then i am afraid i have no other option arthritis must be one of the most painful things to live with ask some old people!! i have found with my last 2 they they have actually told me that enough is enough if that makes sense you just have to know them well enough to tell !! just remember however hard it is it is the last nicest thing you can do for them if they aren't happy and you must only keep him alive if he is happy and comfortable and not because you love him so much tough call i know but quality of life is important i am sure if you asked 10 people who have serious arthritis and nothing can be done for them they would prob agree how painful it is but we musn't think of ourselves xxx
 
I think there is still hope with arthritis. My pony was diagnosed with arthritis of the hocks last summer and with injections, tildren (drip) and a joint supplement she is absolutely sound and doing dressage and jumping with no problems (touches wood). The farrier rolls the toes on her shoes and seats out (I think) the hinds to ease breakover, and she has a massage pad to keep her muscles loose and help her keep moving correctly (mostly because I am soft). So in my experience there is a lot you can do for your boy, and even if you can't event you won't necessarily be limited to hacking.

As far as when to call it a day is concerned, only you will know what is right for you and your horse. I have always said for me and mine it will be when she isn't happy any more. She is a bit odd and would rather work than be turned out, so if I have to retire her in the future (like you and yours, she's my forever horse) if I can keep her happy in the field and she adjusts, great, if not, well you know. But that's only what's right for us, and you might make a different decision, and that's ok.

But for the moment, cross each bridge as you come to it. Find out what the exact diagnosis is first and then you will be able to formulate a treatment plan with your vet and see what the long term prognosis is for your boy. I hope it all works out.
 
A picture of the big boy.

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At the moment he's super happy. Just lame. He LOVES his work which is what I'm worried about, literally when he sees jumps he starts leaping at his door and is so excited. I'm thinking that retirement isn't going to suit him very well - more so if he cannot hack out because he will be a complete field ornament. Will have to see what happens. Views just totally skewed now =[
 
I am sure that when he has recovered from his flexion tests! that he will feel a whole lot better. Danilon is a good painkiller for long term use, he will most likely be field sound if not hacking sound. That is if you are not giving up on him already.
 
unbalanced said:
I think there is still hope with arthritis. My pony was diagnosed with arthritis of the hocks last summer and with injections, tildren (drip) and a joint supplement she is absolutely sound and doing dressage and jumping with no problems (touches wood). The farrier rolls the toes on her shoes and seats out (I think) the hinds to ease breakover, and she has a massage pad to keep her muscles loose and help her keep moving correctly (mostly because I am soft). So in my experience there is a lot you can do for your boy, and even if you can't event you won't necessarily be limited to hacking.
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This is really really good to hear as Frank lives for his jumping. Even if its only to pop a fence in the school. This is the horse who last summer jumped out of his field, over the top of an electric fence stand. SIX TIMES!!! Little bugger! When he wants out, he'll jump a lorry lol!

I am feeling cross tonight that our farrier hasn't picked up on it. I know thats probably unreasonable.
 
flamehead said:
A picture of the big boy.

SAM_2065.jpg


At the moment he's super happy. Just lame. He LOVES his work which is what I'm worried about, literally when he sees jumps he starts leaping at his door and is so excited. I'm thinking that retirement isn't going to suit him very well - more so if he cannot hack out because he will be a complete field ornament. Will have to see what happens. Views just totally skewed now =[
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well i think you have answered your own question if he is happy then brill keep doing everything you can for him xx
 
Pastie2, please **** off if you're going to make comments like that. We will NEVER give up on him until he is no longer happy. If he lives til 30 eating us out of house and home and never leaving his field, thats fabulous. But it is important that we're prepared, particularly as he is my OHs baby boy and it will be the hardest decision he will ever have to make. I'm just trying to get my head around when I decide that. He gets blue now if he's sat in his box or field for a few days without being worked.

Oh and P.S. he's back to being fully sound again tonight. Well, you know, no worse than he was this am before the flexion test.
 
he is absolutely beautiful, remember arthritis didnt happen overnight so treatment and supps will also not work overnight so dont be in a rush and give it all time, it will be okay - lots of turn out 24/7 as long as he moves about in the field if he tends to stay in one place a good 30min walk in hand with turn out is better than no movement at all, keep legs warm in winter mind, keep up the supps, and dont let him get too fat this wont help either, dont give up too soon.
 
What a lovely horse he is Flamehead! My 21 year old gelding has arthritis in his hocks (oh how I laugh when I read the phrase "needs to work more from behind" on his dressage comments). I've tried loads of supplements - you name it, I'll have tried him. The only one I rate is Aviform Suppleaze Gold - you have to load it in for a month or two at the beginning and it'll be about three months at least before you see any results, but my boy is sounder now than he was at the age of 12.

I know you said that the vet has mentioned steroid injections, but have they mentioned Hyaluronic acid injections into the joint? Might be worth asking about - it's not a steroid, and it's something the vet hospital have mentioned to me as my mare has been diagnosed with it in her fetlock at the age of 8. She hasnt' had any yet, but they've told me that it might be a course of action in the future - for now, I've started her on the Aviform....
 
He is already on a joint supplement (My Joints by HorseFirst) which is obviously not helping anymore. We shall be looking into stronger ones definitely though. He's only 12 so I don't think bute is feasible long term. Hmm.

Oh, and he moves about alright! Charges around like a complete nutter lol!
 
Holly Hocks said:
What a lovely horse he is Flamehead! My 21 year old gelding has arthritis in his hocks (oh how I laugh when I read the phrase "needs to work more from behind" on his dressage comments). I've tried loads of supplements - you name it, I'll have tried him. The only one I rate is Aviform Suppleaze Gold - you have to load it in for a month or two at the beginning and it'll be about three months at least before you see any results, but my boy is sounder now than he was at the age of 12.

I know you said that the vet has mentioned steroid injections, but have they mentioned Hyaluronic acid injections into the joint? Might be worth asking about - it's not a steroid, and it's something the vet hospital have mentioned to me as my mare has been diagnosed with it in her fetlock at the age of 8. She hasnt' had any yet, but they've told me that it might be a course of action in the future - for now, I've started her on the Aviform....
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Thank you =] that photo totally sums him up - beautiful boy but full of character bless him loll!!

Vet hasn't mentioned that but I will write it down for us to talk about next Thursday. xxx
 
flamehead said:
Pastie2, please **** off if you're going to make comments like that. We will NEVER give up on him until he is no longer happy. If he lives til 30 eating us out of house and home and never leaving his field, thats fabulous. But it is important that we're prepared, particularly as he is my OHs baby boy and it will be the hardest decision he will ever have to make. I'm just trying to get my head around when I decide that. He gets blue now if he's sat in his box or field for a few days without being worked.

Oh and P.S. he's back to being fully sound again tonight. Well, you know, no worse than he was this am before the flexion test.
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FH please dont speak to me like that, I was offering constructive advice, and I dont think for one moment I was being rude enough to recieve such a nasty reply. Get on with it FH and I hope you get the answers you are looking for, you seem to be attention seeking in most of your posts and I dont think for one moment that you want this horse to be a field ornament, a happy hacker or anything else, I think your mind is already made up. Good luck with your decision.
 
I used to ride and ex-eventer with arthritis in his hocks. He did not need to be medicated but was on cortaflex. He is 23 years old now. Retirement did not suit him at all and he went batty, would stand by the gate and would not graze until he had been ridden etc. He was brought back into work a couple of years ago and he now regularly hacks out, goes up the gallops, does the odd showjumping or hunter trial. He can be a little stiff the day after, but he lives for a busy life and will not settle otherwise. The vet is happy for him to be doing the work he is doing too.

Obviously I have no idea how bad your boys arthritis is, but just to let you know it isn't always bad! Ditto what Beeswax said, if you can turn out 24/7 that would be better than staying in. At least know you know what is wrong with him and you can work with your vet to keep him happy.

ETS: I also reckon he could still event to a low level, but obviously he is getting on a little bit now and he may be very stiff for a couple of days afterward, so he just has to settle for hunter trials and showjumping now!
 
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It is so hard at times isn't it hun :(

When Tiggy was diagnosed with the chronic damage to her rear susponsories, I thought I'd have a field ornament. I was worried about how she would cope with the others going out.

When I saw that she could not stale or turn properly, then it was time to call it a day :(

It's a case of see how it goes.
 
FH - have you noticed that it's when they're diagnosed with something and you seriously have to think about their future that they start charging round the field!!
My boy is the eldest in the field at 21 - he's known as Grandad to the other liveries as he really does rule the roost but in the kindest possible way. We have a yearling in the field which he adores and he makes time to play with all of them - in fact he's the liveliest one out in the field! He's a bugger to catch unless he's the last one out, so he can make sure that everyone else is in first. If I want to catch him in the middle of the day it's a game of hide and seek, lots of carrots and lots of subterfuge!
 
Pastie are you having a laugh?

This horse was my OHs first horse. He bought him as a 6year old. He was originally shared, then it went nasty. He fought tooth and nail to buy the other half of him. After being beaten up, he finally got the other half of him. Then his parents divorced, and he was the only thing in my OHs life that was holding him together. Then because of him, we got our other horses.

We moved to Gloucestershire for Frank. We bought the house for a place for Frank. We built the school for a place to work Frank. He is my OHs whole life. We are not giving up but I will also not see him suffer.
 
flamehead said:
Pastie2, please **** off if you're going to make comments like that. We will NEVER give up on him until he is no longer happy. If he lives til 30 eating us out of house and home and never leaving his field, thats fabulous. But it is important that we're prepared, particularly as he is my OHs baby boy and it will be the hardest decision he will ever have to make. I'm just trying to get my head around when I decide that. He gets blue now if he's sat in his box or field for a few days without being worked.

Oh and P.S. he's back to being fully sound again tonight. Well, you know, no worse than he was this am before the flexion test.
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oh bless you yes we do seem to go poor coz of them!!! another thing is it possible to turn him out 24/7? this really helps as they can move about when they want? i have chucked my girl out as i felt it was better for her to be mobile all the time she has a big rug on and being cold is really only something we feel more than them . as long as he has food to eat he will keep warm but being able to choose to move is much better i find anyway xx
 
flamehead said:
Pastie are you having a laugh?

This horse was my OHs first horse. He bought him as a 6year old. He was originally shared, then it went nasty. He fought tooth and nail to buy the other half of him. After being beaten up, he finally got the other half of him. Then his parents divorced, and he was the only thing in my OHs life that was holding him together. Then because of him, we got our other horses.

We moved to Gloucestershire for Frank. We bought the house for a place for Frank. We built the school for a place to work Frank. He is my OHs whole life. We are not giving up but I will also not see him suffer.
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By the tone of your posts he doesnt seem to be "suffering" just unsound. Many an unsound and not suffering horse can lead a comfortable life and quite hack............. if you want them to!
 
During the summer they're out 24/7, in the winter they're in during the night and occasionally during the day but he's fine when he works. He could always have my youngsters area next winter so he can have a wander around when he feels like it. I'm hoping he'll be much better in the summer when he's got some warmth on his back, grass in his belly and he's out 24/7.
 
But the vet said that he currently is not comfortable enough to be a hack - and the steroids may not work. What I'm trying to understand is what we do if that happens - because right now my heart is saying fight at all costs, but I know thats not the right thing for him, not really, not when he's suffering.
 
Arthritis isn't the end by any means - an old lady on our yard still rides her 32yo pony who supposedly had arthritis aged 20. She detoxes her pony every so often and doesn't use supplements or balancers as it was aggravating the inflammation around the joints. I guess some are just more sensitive.

Steroids can cause ulcers too so maybe look into a change of diet? I honestly don't think it's time to call it a day - just look at all the options. These days, so much research is out there you might find something that could work for frank.
 
It is the hardest decision to make and this time last year I posted a very similar post.
We called it a day with Jesper in July but I think in actual fact he called it a day. He retired eighteen months before this and was having a lovely time as a field ornament. There were the odd days when he needed bute but he was happy, full of life and putting on weight like mad (think TB who was always previously lean)! I had said he'd be with us as long as he was happy. He was 12yrs old with collateral ligament, SI, suspensory and numerous other issues but he was my baby.
One morning I went down to find him very quiet and very lame. He didn't chase me round the paddock when I poo picked and he was tucked up. I knew then we'd lost the battle but wanted to give him a chance. That afternoon despite bute he was no better and wasn't weight bearing evenly. I called the vets who agreed to come out 36hrs later and we picked up metacam that evening so he could have a happy pain free last day. He picked up on the metacam but still wasn't quite his usual self, as I say it was like he was telling us.
In short you and your OH will know when it's time. It's heart breaking but when you love them you do the right thing by them. I hope you and your OH have lots of happy times to come before you have to make the decision.
 
Hi! Can i just ask (may seem a very stupid question) - is chronic arthritis of the hocks the same/just another term for bone spavin? I assume so as it's all the same isn't it. Have you seen the x-rays and seen which bones are affected and how far along the arthritis is? It will be about 20 years ago now my first proper i shall say, pony was diagnosed with this. We were told they were generally lame once the bones were going through the process of fusing but, once fused, although the horse would be stiff due to the limited movement but not in pain as such.

My pony was 12/13 when diagnosed and, back then they just treated with bute - no option of injections was given. He however reacted to the bute after being on it daily for a sustained period so we took him off. He was however, in that time hacked as normal and jumped and did xc but i would limit him/or he'd limit himself really to a certain height fence wise.

To cut a long story short, he had a bad fall (in a water fence) xc and a week or so a was after was horrendously lame behind and I thought his ridden life was over. However, we got a very good physio out who worked on him for a long time. To cut a long story short, after two treatments he was sounder than he'd been for years!

I would strongly recommend some physio treatment if you vet agrees as, die to them compensating for the stiffness in the hocks (or one hock if worse than the other) they can actually cause additional stiffness that makes their movement worse. In my pony's case it really improved blood flow to the area - the lady had me feel the difference in temperature going down eahc side of his quarters (one side - the better side -was warmer than the other). After treatment, and she hadn't touched the quarters where i felt, the area was warm as the blood was flowing freely through where it hadn't before.

It is definitely something i would recommend to anyone with an arthritic horse. Arthritis in the hocks certainly isn't the end of the world. Ok, he is unlikely to be a top eventer but there's no real reason why he can't hack happily and maybe do lower lever jumping.

Good luck!
 
tallyho! said:
Arthritis isn't the end by any means - an old lady on our yard still rides her 32yo pony who supposedly had arthritis aged 20. She detoxes her pony every so often and doesn't use supplements or balancers as it was aggravating the inflammation around the joints. I guess some are just more sensitive.

Steroids can cause ulcers too so maybe look into a change of diet? I honestly don't think it's time to call it a day - just look at all the options. These days, so much research is out there you might find something that could work for frank.
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good advice but cant stress enough the importance of him being out all the time if possible spring is here and best to turn out now as the grass is coming thru than when the grass has come thru believe me he will will much happier and you do run the risk of him seizing up a bit sorry to go on but someone has spiked my drink with alcohol!!!!! AGAIN!!!!!!!! XX
 
I felt EXACTLY as you do now in January.....My boy went lame in early Dec Last year, I assumed it was 'just another abscess' (he has typical WB feet and thus gets abscesses at least once every season!) when the farrier found nothing, poulticing brought nothing to the surface and he still hadn't come sound 3 weeks later I booked him in at the vets for a workup. I took him there early January and was told (after numerous X-Rays etc) that he had bad arthritis in the fetlock and pastern joints of his near fore. The vet at the time didn't seem very positive and told me he'd probably just be a field ornament (Bear in mind he's 20 now so I assume this number had something to do with the vet's opinion!). He had a course of 4 Cartrophen injections and is on a management dose of Danilon at the moment. He's also on Cortaflex (but he's been on this since I got him). He's currently back in work and doing fine *touch wood*, I don't for one minute think we'll be out jumping BSJA courses again but this doesn't bother me in the slightest, I just know he'd never be happy as a field ornament so I'm so glad that he doesn't have to be.

If you've got to the end of all that waffle, well done! What I'm trying to say is, Arthritis isn't the end of the world and with the right care, determination and sometimes medication, an arthritic horse can continue enjoying a working life.
 
Just a thought to put into the mix............I have used Suppleaze Gold on mine for a number of years (has navicular and kissing spines), there is also "talk" that turmeric is good for arthritis so I use that (from cotswolds herbs - cheap as chips), I also use magnetic leg wraps for the hinds of my ex racer/hunter, not the hock ones as sure they would fall down, but just normal mag wraps on hind legs - they say that the magents dont have to be on the specific area. Years ago I had a copper chain ( fitted onto fetlock) that I used on my 40 year old, but he lost it in the field one day (suspect he got mugged for the bling) and I havent found a replacement for it
 
I would say that almost invariably horses tell you when they have had enough. I can thoroughly recommend magnet boots for arthritis. If you would like further details PM me (although I'm going to bed soon, lol!)
 
I've read the first couple of pages and you mentioned bute. I didn't see how old Frank is, but we have a 21 year old ex masters horse who has had a very hard life hunting and now has athritis is his knees and hocks. He is on half a sachet of bute twice a day and is sound. He won't jump again, because we have decided that he has done enough in his life, but he hacks out and is happy.

Good luck with your boy and don't despair.
 
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