When do you give up trying to make them brave enough to do a job they’re not keen on?

[Boulty]

I think from the sounds of it you’ve tried hard to help her be what your child now needs but sounds like a bit of a square peg round hole kind of situation. Given that what she’s good at is in demand I’d be tempted to loan her out, stating that she won’t do things independently but loves being a leidrein pony & following others out hacking. With her age it may be as she gets older she may become more amenable to the idea but sounds like she’s no longer what your daughter needs & would be happier going back to doing what she loves to do.

CI Re Finn would be tempted to pick Joe Ms brain next time you have him out for a lesson to see if any weird & wonderful suggestions of things you’ve not tried yet. It could be that who he is and why he’s like that mean that it’s never going to be something he’s happy with or it could just be you’ve not found the right key to unlock the door yet. Maybe this Winter more arena work and less hacking might have to be the answer (maybe just try to really mix it up in terms of what you do in there to keep things fresh).

I am neither particularly confident nor talented but did eventually manage to teach the spooky, trigger stacky Welsh to hack alone (to the point that he actually enjoyed it) but it took me 2 years to get around to doing something about it and that was initially out of necessity (months and months and months of walk work on roads is rather tedious and doesn’t tend to be an activity anyone wants to join in with and I was SO over hand walking after the first month or so!). I think the first “hack” consisted of going to the bottom of the (not very long) driveway and back, took about half an hour and involved me getting on & off about 20 times. At various times in the beginning we had rearing in the gateway, trying to go backwards through the office window, trying to smash my leg repeatedly into the side of a barn, sooooo much planting, all the dragon snorts & about a squillion dismount / remounts. Although he DID have a history of spooking and then taking off with you at gallop if you didn’t have the reflexes of Spider-Man that issue was much improved by that point and he was very good on the ground so dismounting would always immediately diffuse the situation (& he would only escalate things under saddle if you put him under pressure).

As an aside to this the fuzzball has hacked on his own since day 1 as I initially had no hacking buddies. He definitely prefers tootling along behind (& we’re having a running argument atm about him taking the lead when told to do so) but he can and will do it. I’m still having quite a few issues having him go around a TREC PTV on his own without planting & getting stuck. I’m also having issues getting from lorry park to warmup to start without just getting off & leading. These things were never huge issues with the Welsh despite the difficulties I had initially with him (he could be nappy for sure but not to the point I couldn’t move him at all)

 

[Maesfen]

She never needs to hack alone, but she needs to be able to go first - in an arena, in a field, round a course of jumps on her own, in a warm-up without following another. Before we persevered with going in front out hacking she was unimpressed about going first AT ALL. Now she’ll do so in an enclosed space without too much reluctance, but the hacking issues persist. If we drop back and let her follow, I worry she’ll go back to wanting to follow in the arena again, so we’re basically stuck at lead rein stage.

That’s what the decision is about really - do we accept it’s just not her thing, and give up trying?

Haven't read all the replies but tell me; was she ever long reined out and about while she was broken in? As to me, that is one of the most important things to do, to teach it trust in the handler, obedience to word commands, independence from others, for traffic proofing and accepting it goes where it's put without any arguments and at what speed you dictate. Until that is established I don't even think of backing anything but I appreciate that's the old way nowadays!
If she wasn't long reined perhaps you can do some now to get her more independent of friends and used to being in front but TBH, otherwise, she sounds a saint of a pony and many parents would give their eye teeth for one like that.

 

[Goldenstar]

I buy mine as unbacked youngsters and they all hack well alone....they have to since I rarely have company. Back in the day I was also happy retraining nappers and planters to hack. I'm not saying that there aren't horses who won't hack alone, but I haven't really met one yet. If one has already developed a habit of stopping or napping then there is an ethical question about whether it is worth continuing with it when there are other options available, but certainly youngsters by and large hack happily alone pretty quickly and with minimal stress.

I think it depends where they live and what they have done in their lives and how they where started .
Certainly all my homebreds where great hacks and one of the TB’s who got kicked out of racing school for being impossibly nappy hacked alone beautifully I did not realise his previous owner did not hack him really much at all.

 

[maya2008]

Haven't read all the replies but tell me; was she ever long reined out and about while she was broken in? As to me, that is one of the most important things to do, to teach it trust in the handler, obedience to word commands, independence from others, for traffic proofing and accepting it goes where it's put without any arguments and at what speed you dictate. Until that is established I don't even think of backing anything but I appreciate that's the old way nowadays!
If she wasn't long reined perhaps you can do some now to get her more independent of friends and used to being in front but TBH, otherwise, she sounds a saint of a pony and many parents would give their eye teeth for one like that.

Long reined endlessly for weeks and weeks, as she was at my friend’s yard to wean her foal and I seized the day to do all the pre-backing stuff with facilities and a super busy road. It was a way of building a bond with a previously uncatchable and aggressive pony. She’s the most traffic proof pony ever - artic lorries, tankers, rattling work trucks with garden machinery in, agricultural vehicles, packs of motorbikes, the lot. Mostly at a walk or slow trot because I had to keep up, and with plenty of encouragement. She long-reined round the arena too in walk and trot. She was still in the ‘adults are terrifying’ stage then though, so upsetting me would not have been on her to do list.

To be fair, I have never known a lack of long-reining be an issue. I struggle to walk any distance, lunging clicks my hips out and I can’t run without making my left foot swell for weeks. Neither with those I have backed for myself nor the kids’ ponies (other than this one because her circumstances were different), have I ever lunged or long-reined beyond a couple of sessions so they know what to do. I pony them from one of the others for a few weeks so they know the tracks and have seen what happens, then we back them and off they go. And out of 4 we backed in 18 months, she’s the only one with significant long-reining and the only one who doesn’t want to go first.

I think it may well be related to her early experiences (which weren’t good) and needing a sense of safety as a result. But I will never know because she can’t talk! I’m going to give it a few weeks of boot camp and give it everything we’ve got … because we really do love her to bits. But if she’s still not happy then I think I’ll call it quits and let her find her easy life with a small person.

 

[J&S]

when she could do a job that didn’t involve this at all.

Surely this is your answer. It is just horses for courses isn't it. She will be of great value and be happy.

 

[Caol Ila]

I don't see the connection between that and training to hack solo being about rider confidence? Did you mean to quote me, CI?

Yes, but I had a multi-quote fail on my phone.

"If only" referred to hacking solo being a rider confidence issue. If only.................................

The thing about ponying was responding to maya's suggestion about ponying Fin from Hermosa. It's a great idea, in theory, but if you met a firetruck and a lorry on our narrow roads like we did today, you could kiss your a*rse goodbye. I ponied a lot when I had direct access to trails, about a million years ago, but it's not really viable now.

CI Re Finn would be tempted to pick Joe Ms brain next time you have him out for a lesson to see if any weird & wonderful suggestions of things you’ve not tried yet. It could be that who he is and why he’s like that mean that it’s never going to be something he’s happy with or it could just be you’ve not found the right key to unlock the door yet. Maybe this Winter more arena work and less hacking might have to be the answer (maybe just try to really mix it up in terms of what you do in there to keep things fresh).

Doesn't sound like I will see Joe until May 2024. He can't stop by us this month, and he says in next visit to Scotland will be in 2024. Blah. Fin is getting better at schooling so maybe he will tolerate more than two days a week in it. Let's not talk about riding in it in the dark under the floodlights. Let's pretend last winter just didn't happen.

To be fair, I have never known a lack of long-reining be an issue. I struggle to walk any distance, lunging clicks my hips out and I can’t run without making my left foot swell for weeks. Neither with those I have backed for myself nor the kids’ ponies (other than this one because her circumstances were different), have I ever lunged or long-reined beyond a couple of sessions so they know what to do. I pony them from one of the others for a few weeks so they know the tracks and have seen what happens, then we back them and off they go. And out of 4 we backed in 18 months, she’s the only one with significant long-reining and the only one who doesn’t want to go first.

Western trainers don't really long-rein, either. I keep telling myself this. Fin never went through that stage. His previous owner, who usually downplayed stuff, said he panicked in the long reins, which you can interpret to mean he was actually quite dangerous. She was honest about him but underplayed a bit. Taking that on board (and knowing Fin), I have not long-reined. But that's not a thing in other schools of horsemanship.

 

[Maesfen]

I think it may well be related to her early experiences (which weren’t good) and needing a sense of safety as a result. But I will never know because she can’t talk! I’m going to give it a few weeks of boot camp and give it everything we’ve got … because we really do love her to bits. But if she’s still not happy then I think I’ll call it quits and let her find her easy life with a small person.

You are the best type of owner - you are listening to her. I hope she realises how lucky she is.
PS: If ponying had been an option for me I too would have saved miles of walking behind, believe me!

 

[maya2008]

Boot camp day 1: Fine. In the field, getting fitter and going first.

Boot camp day 2: Son caught her in and she looked daggers at him, at me and at pony daughter caught in to ride. she went! Very expressive eyes, that pony! Behaved well, bit more forward than the day before.

Two days of daughter not riding her…by yesterday afternoon daughter was not quite coping…by this morning we had full scale not coping. Sat her on the Shetland while Shetland ate breakfast to sort her out (which thankfully worked!). And this is why I really really hoped pony would carry through to the next stage with daughter .

 

[Maesfen]

Lol, sounds like she doesn't like work!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Boot camp day 1: Fine. In the field, getting fitter and going first.

Boot camp day 2: Son caught her in and she looked daggers at him, at me and at pony daughter caught in to ride. she went! Very expressive eyes, that pony! Behaved well, bit more forward than the day before.

Two days of daughter not riding her…by yesterday afternoon daughter was not quite coping…by this morning we had full scale not coping. Sat her on the Shetland while Shetland ate breakfast to sort her out (which thankfully worked!). And this is why I really really hoped she would carry through to the next stage with daughter .

I'm not sure who all the 'she's and 'her's refer to but it sounds as your daughter needs the lead-rein pony, to nurse her along off the lead for a while longer. Can she not ride the other pony occasionally to begin to develop her skills while still thinking of the LRP as her own?

 

[maya2008]

I'm not sure who all the 'she's and 'her's refer to but it sounds as your daughter needs the lead-rein pony, to nurse her along off the lead for a while longer. Can she not ride the other pony occasionally to begin to develop her skills while still thinking of the LRP as her own?

Sorry !! Been a stressful week! Daughter rides off lead, in front, hacking and in the field/arena on our 12hh Welsh A gelding (who she stole off her brother) but his best attempt at helping her with her sensory stuff when she’s not coping is to offer her hay, which is sweet but not effective! So we have the perfect pony but he can’t regulate her, and I need one of them to do that. Shetland worked this morning though, so it’s something to think about. She can play on the Shetland completely independently. She’s a bit tall but still only 24kg fully dressed so not exactly too heavy!

 

[Pearlsasinger]

Sorry !! Been a stressful week! Daughter rides off lead, in front, hacking and in the field/arena on our 12hh Welsh A gelding (who she stole off her brother) but his best attempt at helping her with her sensory stuff when she’s not coping is to offer her hay, which is sweet but not effective! So we have the perfect pony but he can’t regulate her, and I need one of them to do that. Shetland worked this morning though, so it’s something to think about. She can play on the Shetland completely independently. She’s a bit tall but still only 24kg fully dressed so not exactly too heavy!

I assume from your reply that daughter has ASD. I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to move on the LRP, although I'm sure you would have no trouble finding a great home where she would be valued for what she is. The gelding doesn't sound as if he is the perfect pony for your daughter, after all.

 

[maya2008]

I assume from your reply that daughter has ASD. I certainly wouldn't be in a rush to move on the LRP, although I'm sure you would have no trouble finding a great home where she would be valued for what she is. The gelding doesn't sound as if he is the perfect pony for your daughter, after all.

The whole thing is such a twisted web of conflicting needs that I am not sure I can even see straight any more!!! Child needs one thing, pony needs another . Daughter is ASD and very hypermobile with the anxiety that can come with that. She learned to talk on the back of the Shetland because she was mute otherwise as a toddler, and her adored older first pony sadly died in 2022. The one this post is about replaced her in many ways (we already had her as was initially bought years ago as a companion).

However, old first ridden cheerfully went first in an arena etc and this one doesn’t. No issue hacking over the winter, but then daughter wanted to do competitions this year - to trot round a course of jumps by herself, maybe to do some walk trot dressage, join PC this autumn. All this involves being able to ride without following someone else. So she set out to make her new friend braver and bolder so they could do it together.

She has done everything in her power to make it happen, and I cannot see anything she is doing wrong. Big brother gets the same response but can kick harder so wins sooner, unfortunately the second you let pony go behind for even one ride in any situation, we’re back at square one again. This is supposed to be fun, not endless frustration. She’s crying tears of sheer frustration some days, having put her all into it, and I do think maybe we are trying to put a square peg in a round hole with the pony. Pony does regulate her though…

In contrast to that endlessly frustrating slog, Welsh A gelding has spent the summer very deftly teaching her to have reins at all times, to sit a spook, which he started small then ramped up , to jump nicely (up to 55cm so far), steer round courses and do some solo schooling. He’s been patient and kind. She can follow behind one day then go first the next - his behaviour does not change. She’s doing everything on him she wanted to on the OP pony - only thing he can’t do is regulate her. Which the Shetland can actually do, I realised in writing the post above. I also have a bigger 2yo sitting in the field who half does the job from the ground, so we will have a replacement in time. That one will definitely go first - kind and sweet but bold as brass and completely happy on her own.

We’ll continue with boot camp and see. I still hold out hope we might manage to turn this around, but daughter refused OP pony completely this afternoon and picked the sweet Welsh mare I am supposed to be finding a new home for.

 

[Caol Ila]

Out of curiosity, how does a pony regulate an ASD child?

 

[maya2008]

Out of curiosity, how does a pony regulate an ASD child?

OT would say it’s about movement helping the senses regulate - but it’s not just that because it’s not every pony that can do it, and sitting on a standing Shetland did the job this morning.

Closest I can come to describing it is the wave of calm a good lead mare projects (mine can calm the fears of the young ones if needed and our proper lead mare created total harmony in the herd in, like, 2 minutes of meeting them all - it was like they all sighed in relief and instantly relaxed), or that zen feeling you can get from a horse you connect to. I connected to my TB and now to little NF but not to the others I have owned. Pheromones maybe??

Humans do similar - feeling settled next to a partner you love, that feeling of comfort and being ‘home’ sitting next to a loved one (child/parent/good friend). Endorphins from hugs…

 

[maya2008]

Today we did…

Along with a lot of kicking by daughter who managed trot in both directions and a small jump. Pony actually goes better if there is no one else in the school!

 

[Jenko109]

Not read all replies, but you don't seem to know how lucky you are.

If this pony hacks nicely behind, then will she jump behind something else nicely too?

Pairs XC, hunting, fun rides etc. Sounds like there is loads of fun stuff that this pony should be suitable for.

 

[ycbm]

Today we did…

Along with a lot of kicking by daughter who managed trot in both directions and a small jump. Pony actually goes better if there is no one else in the school!

Keep an eagle eye on the jumping. If this is a one off photo then there's no problem. If she is persistently taking off from the right hind only, then there's is probably a physical problem your vet hasn't yet found.

Lovely little thing I can see why you like her.

 

[maya2008]

Keep an eagle eye on the jumping. If this is a one off photo then there's no problem. If she is persistently taking off from the right hind only, then there's is probably a physical problem your vet hasn't yet found.

Lovely little thing I can see why you like her.

No, that was just that jump (thankfully, I just reviewed the videos in a panic!) - sometimes it's both back legs together, sometimes off left hind, sometimes off right hind. Seems to depend on the approach as to what you get. She's not jumped much in her life so going to give her some more practice with my son on and see how much we can improve it. I would at least like to send her off as a steady first ridden type if we decide that's what is happening. Took her down the road with daughter on and watched her completely ignore the artic lorry and coach that came past - she definitely has her strengths, especially given she's seen nothing but farm traffic for months!

 

[maya2008]

Not read all replies, but you don't seem to know how lucky you are.

If this pony hacks nicely behind, then will she jump behind something else nicely too?

Pairs XC, hunting, fun rides etc. Sounds like there is loads of fun stuff that this pony should be suitable for.

We just honestly have 4 of them - similar heights, all sweet and good with children. There were once 3… the perfect number. Then the Shetland responded amazingly to the miracle drug and came back into work, and we took on one who was struggling in the home he was in. So two more than we need. We did 3 rides today, and it’s just exhausting. Plan is to sell one, find some little kids to ride the Shetland and go back to a happy number of ponies. Debate is which one to sell! I was figuring selling the smallest was the most sensible plan, had taken photos etc and written an ad…but the one this thread is about is being outgrown in ability rather than size so it’s hard to choose.

 

[maya2008]

Well… we gave up and advertised her. No one was enjoying trying to get her more forwards, not the kids or her.

First family to view loved her and wanted her. She’s going to teach a small person to ride, in an experienced home. She had a wobble cuddling into me at first, then gave the adults a chance and decided she liked the mother a lot (very gentle and kind). Kid didn’t want to get off! So when we go to collect our new purchases from handling livery, we’ll drop her off on the way. It will be sad to see her go, but she’s going to do the job she loves, looking after a small person and keeping them safe.

That scared little feral creature that arrived on our doorstep two and a half years ago, has turned into the most amazing pony. So proud of her watching her be grown up and caring for a new child.

 

[DabDab]

Sounds like a great result for you, pony and her new family.

 

[blitznbobs]

Out of curiosity, how does a pony regulate an ASD child?

The research is currently being done but this what is known at the moment,

A person with ASD has a lower level of Oxytocin in the brain than a neurotypical person. Oxytocin is the “love” hormone, that feeling you get when you see the person who you are seriously attracted to or a bowlful of puppies.

sensory stimulation in anyone increases oxytocin as does certain movements and activities. Rocking a pelvis is one of these movements. If you have ridden a collected canter or a really excellent piaffe and it doesn’t feel amazing you are an outlier . This is true of everyone INCLUDING people with ASD. Increasing level of oxytocin in the brain inhibits the production of cortisol. Cortisol is the stress hormone. So ANY action that decreases Cortisol will help to regulate anyone but if you have a low level of OXytocin to start with then your chances of not coping (dysregulation) is higher… so hence animal and movement therapy reduces dysregulation.

I am currently looking at doing a PhD into comparing rates of oxytocin production with various activities (in neurotypical and neurodiverse populations ) but this hasnt been done yet so we simply do not know if horses are better than dogs etc but some ASD people won’t / don’t want to hug a human but hugging an animal is less confrontational to them.

 

[Maesfen]

That's brilliant news; so glad you found an answer that suits everyone.