When does a friendship group become a clique?

[Paint Me Proud]

After a discussion about livery yards I got to wondering.....

The term clique tends to have a negative connotation of that of a group of people who are dismissive or unfriendly towards people who they do not consider to be in their group.

Friendship could be considered a positive relationship between different people who (generally!) enjoy each others company, but the two groups have a lot of overlap.

We all know that livery yards can be bitchy places but when does, for example, a group of liveries who spend a lot of time together, begin being considered a clique? Or is it simply based on external observation in a purely subjective manner?

Interested to hear peoples thoughts

 

[_OC_]

My OH is always saying 'Women with horses are bitches'.....I mutter...'Yeah right'.
TBH any where women are together this always happens....my sister was a talented ballet dancer and made it to the Royal Ballet juniors at White Lodge...a big achievement .....and the back biting that she and my Mother endured was incredible.....just a woman thing...bet if you had a yard full of men it would be completely different.....as men on a whole tell it as it is...and less likely to form a clique.

 

[AngelitoCaz]

I think it's about the inclusion/exclusion of others, were on a small friendly yard and new people have said it's intimidating at first but everyone goes out their way to be friendly and everyone gets on now, it also helped that the people that did enjoy causing drama didn't stay long.

 

[weesophz]

never really had a clique at my yard as theres not a lot of us and everyone gets on pretty well! Some of us are closer than others and a few dont always see eye to eye but generally its all pretty friendly!

 

[Lintel]

That is my fear at the minute.
I'm afraid to get to friendly with anyone at the yard as I feel it ends up being a "clique" non intentionally.

I think it develops into a clique when that or they are the only people you ride with, talk to, go out with etc!

 

[VikingSong]

My OH is always saying 'Women with horses are bitches'.....I mutter...'Yeah right'.
TBH any where women are together this always happens....my sister was a talented ballet dancer and made it to the Royal Ballet juniors at White Lodge...a big achievement .....and the back biting that she and my Mother endured was incredible.....just a woman thing...bet if you had a yard full of men it would be completely different.....as men on a whole tell it as it is...and less likely to form a clique.

Having worked in male dominated enviroments, I can't agree with anything you said in your post. I have observed the same unpleasant behaviour in male groups. I'm an avid fish keeper, which is a male dominated hobby, and the same criticisms made towards "horse women" can be found in fish keeping circles too.

That's because gender has nothing to do with cliques/"bitching" etc. Some people are just unpleasant, irrespective of their gender, and whenever there are groups of people there will always be unpleasant people amongst them.

I've always been amused by men who refer to women as "bitches," or claim we gossip, when they do the exact same themselves - only it's called "banter" or "telling it as it is" (I utterly loathe the expression). It's nothing more than good ol' fashion misogyny and hypocrisy...

 

[Cowpony]

When you aren't in it?

I think when you see a group of people who know each other well and spend time together it can be a bit intimidating to make an approach, but if you are in the group you probably consider yourselves to be thoroughly approachable and friendly.

 

[Vodkagirly]

It only turns in to a clique if they make others feel uncomfortable. There are a few friendship groups on our yard. People go on holiday together and for nights out. Everyone still talks and is friendly to each other, so no issue.

 

[skint1]

I agree with the majority. It's a subjective thing, depending on your point of view!

I've been at same yard for 6 years now and i don't think it's cliquey at all, but we've had a few people who haven't stayed too long who say they found it so.

The yard is divided into different blocks, I feel that we are all friendly, there is no part of the yard I feel unwelcome, but we do tend to ride/socialise most frequently with our near neighbours, and now that I think of it, each block seems to have people on similar schedules. For example, in my part of the yard we mostly hack in the mornings before work and rarely use the school. In another block they tend to school in the evenings after work. There are also ladies of leisure who do longer hacks and don't have to get up quite so early. (bit jealous of them )

I've had it where someone has moved into the block furthest from mine and they've been there over a year before I even noticed them! Similarly, a lady who offers ad-hoc services (mostly at opposite end of yard) has been at the yard a couple of years at least and didn't even know "my" barn existed until one of my friends hired her! She knew us of course, but had no idea where we were all located. We're all in our own worlds, no malice or exclusion (though of course little arguments arise!)

 

[MungoMadness]

Having worked in male dominated enviroments, I can't agree with anything you said in your post. I have observed the same unpleasant behaviour in male groups. I'm an avid fish keeper, which is a male dominated hobby, and the same criticisms made towards "horse women" can be found in fish keeping circles too.

That's because gender has nothing to do with cliques/"bitching" etc. Some people are just unpleasant, irrespective of their gender, and whenever there are groups of people there will always be unpleasant people amongst them.

I've always been amused by men who refer to women as "bitches," or claim we gossip, when they do the exact same themselves - only it's called "banter" or "telling it as it is" (I utterly loathe the expression). It's nothing more than good ol' fashion misogyny and hypocrisy...

I'm glad you have said this. I've worked, lived and socialised in male dominant environments and they are just as bad, women being bitchier is just rubbish.

I think a group becomes a clique when they are unwelcoming to others.

 

[Bernster]

It only turns in to a clique if they make others feel uncomfortable. There are a few friendship groups on our yard. People go on holiday together and for nights out. Everyone still talks and is friendly to each other, so no issue.

I'd agree with this. Clique tends to be used negatively but friendships I'd hope aren't seen that way. I am closer with some people than others but we're all still friendly.

 

[Mrs G]

It only turns in to a clique if they make others feel uncomfortable.

This. For example, on my yard currently there are 3/4 women (late 20s to mid thirties) who practically gush with chatter and giddiness when together but can hardly muster a 'hello' or 'goodbye' to others and even worse when they suddenly go quiet because they are whispering in corners. Childish and rude and it def makes an uncomfortable atmosphere.

 

[fatpiggy]

Actually I think it exactly reflects herd dynamics. Don't we always worry about introducing a new horse to a herd because the liklihood is that it will be run ragged and generally given the cold shoulder? Then it locates the lowest existing member of the group, buddies up with it and gets a foot in the door. In the wild, the herds are mostly mares with colts at foot who are no threat, and there is always a dominant mare. If you can't be the head honcho then the next best position is to be the heads very best friend. Does this all sound familiar in the human world??

I rest my case!

 

[applecart14]

After a discussion about livery yards I got to wondering.....

The term clique tends to have a negative connotation of that of a group of people who are dismissive or unfriendly towards people who they do not consider to be in their group.

Friendship could be considered a positive relationship between different people who (generally!) enjoy each others company, but the two groups have a lot of overlap.

We all know that livery yards can be bitchy places but when does, for example, a group of liveries who spend a lot of time together, begin being considered a clique? Or is it simply based on external observation in a purely subjective manner?

Interested to hear peoples thoughts

I use the phrase in a negative way. You can have a group of bitchy people who are intent on making someones life a misery and that is a clique. You get these sort of people on social media, facebook for example, they will stalk people and are intent on making their lives a misery. As soon as one something is written by their 'target' they will alert all the others in their clique and they will lay into that person intent on making them bite and upset.

We used to get a lot of cyber bullying referred to us when I worked at a child protection administrator and it often involved an older person as head of the 'clique'. Because the older person was an adult and quite often in a position of trust we would intervene.

I don't think people realise the damage it can do, both to young and old people, especially if that person is already vulnerable. Having a lot of people continually putting you down, laughing in your face and trying their best to make you look stupid is a rotten and immature trick often done by people who have to make others feel bad to make themselves feel 'clever' and this is why you will see young people so affected by cyber bullying they have actually taken their own lives.

This is how I see a 'clique' and this is what the word makes me think of.

 

[Dunlin]

I'll give a very brief example of my opinion on a 'clique' from something that happened last night. I posted on H&H forum (tack room) asking for any recommendations on accommodation for Badminton this year as I was struggling to find something less than £100 a night. So many helpful replies from people. Unfortunately I also chose to post the same question on my local equestrian Facebook group. I shall list word for word (names hidden) the comments below;

You're an idiot, everyone knows you book Badminton the year before
Haha yeah too right *person aboves name* noob!!
LOL just camp and man up, not much of a horse person r u!
^^^ LOOOOOOOL *persons name*
I'm taking my horsebox up, sleeping in there as it's so much warmer than a tent, you can also sleep at least 2 in a 4x4
If *my name* can't afford £100 a night for hotel she so don't have a horsebox or 4x4, you still doing the mega BBQ this year *persons name above*
Yes *persons name above* bring a bottle all invited, Sat eve 8pm!
Except *my name* as she can't afford a bottle hahahahahaha

Oh my days. I'd love to turn around and say they were all younger girls but they weren't, they were all grown women and I am 35 years old. I thought I had left that kind of behaviour behind in the playground at school but apparently it is still rife today and in the adult world. The above is my definition of a clique, a bunch of people who obviously know each other be that in person or over the internet ganging up and bullying someone else, making them feel unwelcome, stupid, a lesser person than they are and uncomfortable.

 

[LHIS]

I'll give a very brief example of my opinion on a 'clique' from something that happened last night. I posted on H&H forum (tack room) asking for any recommendations on accommodation for Badminton this year as I was struggling to find something less than £100 a night. So many helpful replies from people. Unfortunately I also chose to post the same question on my local equestrian Facebook group. I shall list word for word (names hidden) the comments below;

You're an idiot, everyone knows you book Badminton the year before
Haha yeah too right *person aboves name* noob!!
LOL just camp and man up, not much of a horse person r u!
^^^ LOOOOOOOL *persons name*
I'm taking my horsebox up, sleeping in there as it's so much warmer than a tent, you can also sleep at least 2 in a 4x4
If *my name* can't afford £100 a night for hotel she so don't have a horsebox or 4x4, you still doing the mega BBQ this year *persons name above*
Yes *persons name above* bring a bottle all invited, Sat eve 8pm!
Except *my name* as she can't afford a bottle hahahahahaha

Oh my days. I'd love to turn around and say they were all younger girls but they weren't, they were all grown women and I am 35 years old. I thought I had left that kind of behaviour behind in the playground at school but apparently it is still rife today and in the adult world. The above is my definition of a clique, a bunch of people who obviously know each other be that in person or over the internet ganging up and bullying someone else, making them feel unwelcome, stupid, a lesser person than they are and uncomfortable.

I'm stunned - that's disgusting behaviour, and from adult women too! Urgh, what a bunch of (quite frankly) b*****s.
That's definitely 'clique' behaviour by my book too.

 

[Illusion100]

I consider it to be a 'clique' when my first thought when I see a group together is 'Oooh NagHags, wonder where they keep their cauldron?'.

Underneath all the gossiping, spite and general b*tch*ness, they are often very insecure people and being a generous person I do reserve a certain amount for pity for such individuals, sometimes.

 

[applecart14]

The above is my definition of a clique, a bunch of people who obviously know each other be that in person or over the internet ganging up and bullying someone else, making them feel unwelcome, stupid, a lesser person than they are and uncomfortable.

I know how you feel, it is really unpleasant and very upsetting. All you have to think is at least you are the better person, but its not much comfort. They must be very bitter and inadequate people themselves to do this to others, especially when they feel good about doing it.

 

[Annagain]

I'd say a clique becomes a clique when it actively excludes others.

Not really something I've come across in any walk of life since the early days of secondary school.

 

[applecart14]

TBH any where women are together this always happensbet if you had a yard full of men it would be completely different.....as men on a whole tell it as it is...and less likely to form a clique.

I work with men on a construction site (I am a site secretary) and there are no other women anywhere near. I love it because its totally different from working in an office of women. There is no bitchiness, no one trying to feel good about themselves by putting someone else down, or claws sticking out. You have to be able to take the brunt of the jokes from time to time but if you laugh along with them and give it back just as good then they respect you for it.

Like you say OC, men do tell it as it is. I have a good laugh and joke with the men at work, they are a lovely bunch. Thats not to say they never have a bad day or will say something you don't like, but they are respectful and don't hold grudges like women do. They are easier to talk to and have an attitude of 'tomorrow is another day'.

I got offered a job recently where I would be working on a site with a woman overseeing my work. I said not thanks, rather do my own thing and have a male boss any day of the week.

 

[indiat]

We had this at our last place. No one was unpleasant but the YO and her friends did make me feel as if I was constantly interrupting a private conversation. Being talked over or having people stop talking if you come into a room and stare at you until you leave is not pleasant. But I honestly don't know if they realised they were doing it.

 

[LHIS]

I work with men on a construction site (I am a site secretary) and there are no other women anywhere near. I love it because its totally different from working in an office of women. There is no bitchiness, no one trying to feel good about themselves by putting someone else down, or claws sticking out. You have to be able to take the brunt of the jokes from time to time but if you laugh along with them and give it back just as good then they respect you for it.

Like you say OC, men do tell it as it is. I have a good laugh and joke with the men at work, they are a lovely bunch. Thats not to say they never have a bad day or will say something you don't like, but they are respectful and don't hold grudges like women do. They are easier to talk to and have an attitude of 'tomorrow is another day'.

I work for a construction company too - I am the only woman in our UK branch and I love it. I had a job a few years ago and I was part of a big team of women, it was horrible, I left after 6 months.

 

[Luci07]

Still aghast at the FB post. Revolting but I have frequently seen (and on this board as well) when one person wades in, they are always quickly followed by their negative comments.

Oh well, the FB posters are incorrect about booking and who cares what they think...you certainly won't be going out of your way to meet up with them!

 

[Luci07]

I work for a construction company too - I am the only woman in our UK branch and I love it. I had a job a few years ago and I was part of a big team of women, it was horrible, I left after 6 months.

Can we please not just knock working with women. The best manager I ever had was a woman and I don't buy into the whole assumption that a group of women will automatically end up bitching. I have worked in exclusively male teams and there has been a lot of testosterone to deal with and that was not pleasant. There is no fixed rule, it's down to indivudual characters.

 

[applecart14]

Can we please not just knock working with women. The best manager I ever had was a woman and I don't buy into the whole assumption that a group of women will automatically end up bitching. I have worked in exclusively male teams and there has been a lot of testosterone to deal with and that was not pleasant. There is no fixed rule, it's down to indivudual characters.

We weren't knocking working with women all together, I've been temping for 25 years and I can honestly say that I have worked in more positions with women than men and have enjoyed working with women. But I also know that when problems in the workplace are afoot they are more quickly resolved with men than with women.

This day and age its very rare to get the same level as bitchiness as me a LHIS have had in the past because laws have changed and everyone is more PC and more socially aware of bullying and discrimination in the workplace. But it is still rife on social media, and always will be because hiding behind a user name gives a person the anonymity that they wouldn't have if they met you face to face, so they can get away with saying more and their mates also do the same. This is how it becomes a 'clique'. I always compare it to a colony of vultures.

 

[fatpiggy]

Can we please not just knock working with women. The best manager I ever had was a woman and I don't buy into the whole assumption that a group of women will automatically end up bitching. I have worked in exclusively male teams and there has been a lot of testosterone to deal with and that was not pleasant. There is no fixed rule, it's down to indivudual characters.

People are talking from experience though. If you have not been exposed to it then lucky you. I had a woman manager for a bit who was all pally with two other women in the team (they used to go out boozing at weekends together). On their own they were ok, but get them together and they would quite happily say the most horrible things about another colleague in the office. BUT on more than one occasion, if one of the three witches (as we called them) was away, the remaining two would bitch about the missing one. All women in the late 30s. I've always been happier surrounded by men. I went from an all girls school to one which was all boys but experimenting with having girls in the sixth form. Three guesses which one had the nicer atmosphere if nothing else. I didn't really realise how much I hated the girls school until I'd left.

 

[LHIS]

Can we please not just knock working with women. The best manager I ever had was a woman and I don't buy into the whole assumption that a group of women will automatically end up bitching. I have worked in exclusively male teams and there has been a lot of testosterone to deal with and that was not pleasant. There is no fixed rule, it's down to indivudual characters.

I cited mine as an example - it's not a hard and fast rule of course. Unfortunately for me though my sole experience thus far in my working career where I have worked with a lot of women was horrible. I have also worked in a mixed team of men and women and enjoyed that, and the women who I worked with there were all pleasant characters and there was no catty behaviour. For me personally though, I am happier in a male environment.

ETA - the bad experience I had working with a female team can be attributed to a few of the individuals within that team. They weren't all horrible, but the characters that were also happened to be the 'ring leaders' and therefore the fact that there were a couple of pleasant characters counted for very little when they were diluted by the not so nice ones.

 

[zebrahorse]

I consider a yard cliquey if the group(s) explicitly exclude people. I don't think all yards necessarily have cliques though, it's natural to form friendship groups, and so long as these groups aren't exclusive I don't see them as an issue or a clique.

I will be moving to a livery yard later this year for the first time in 5 years. I'm a little nervous about cliques because while I've had great yard experiences, I've also had some truly horrible ones. Fingers crossed for friendly yard mates!

 

[DD]

A friendship group becomes a clique when it fails to add new members without prejudice. Also when it judges others who do not conform to its own set of standards

 

[Bernster]

Haven't read the whole thread but disappointed if it's turned into a gender bashing thread. Plenty of good managers of either gender, and plenty bad too. I'd like to think I'm a good boss and have had plenty of people say that. Mainly worked in female dominated offices and yes there were issues but not always, and blokes are just as capable of being difficult just maybe in other ways. So please as we strive for equality and general fairness (yet women are still underpaid consistently for doing the same work) can we stop with the automatic stereotyping.