When does the teenage phase end?

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littlen

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My youngster (5yo) is going through a serious case of the Kevin's at the moment.

Everything is a drama, from coming into the field to being ridden and everything in between. She has discovered she can overpower me on the ground now too and is very difficult to lead, planting and spinning when coming in from the field. She is obsessed with the herd and won't leave it which has never bothered her before and her seasons are so much worse than they previously were. Ridden wise she is sometimes very good and sometimes very bad depending on her mood that day.

Is this likely to be a phase or is it more than that?
 
At her age, it could certainly be a phase and nothing more, but I find it's always best to keep an open mind so that you don't miss it if there is something underlying.
 
Mine went through it at 5, then at 6 and I thought once he reached 7 we were over the worst but the past three weeks since we moved to a new yard he has had the worst temper tantrums he has ever had. Your girl sounds almost saintly by comparison. The farrier commented he was 7 going on 3 as he dodged his back feet last week. He has been a complete nightmare and I want to give him away.
 
It might be a phase at the moment. But if the 'kevin' stage isnt managed correctly and she becomes aware she is stronger than you, and learns that doing bad behaviour means she is able to do unwanted behaviour, or not do wanted behaviour then you could get a problem horse.
 
Thankfully my children are nowhere near this stage yet!

She is really horrible. I wonder if a moody mare supplement may help as she's so grumpy.
She genuinely argues about everything from tying up, to coming in, going out and being ridden. It's more low level type behaviour than huge explosions but constant testing me every day. It's starting to really take the fun out of owning her as everything a chore and I'm avoiding working with her now!

Previously she was going sweetly. Everything has been checked so it's not that's the only change is a new horse in the herd but she is boss and it hasn't seemed to bother her for more than a day or so!
 
If she's herd bound could you start bringing her on over night/for a few hours a day?

My 5 yr old was living out with a herd until a few weeks ago. She could be a bit difficult and, although I never had issues, the yard staff did apparently have serious issues leading her on a couple of occasions (up on back legs, screaming, soaked in sweat etc.). She's now started coming in over night and there was seriousl histrionics at first, but a few weeks down the line It's made a big difference; she's chilled out a lot.

I think when they're young and still lack confidence they can get very herd bound which can create issues.
 
I have tried a few times Jungle but she is hysterical, door banging and leaping at the doors. She is as quiet as a mouse when the others are in.

She tends to not want to be caught and then plants. She then tries to spin and tank back to her friends. Once tacked up she is ridable but very edgy with no confidence. It's like she can't think for herself without them around!

She also does not hack alone but this has always been the case.

How do I build confidence just let her get on with it?
 
littlen said:
I have tried a few times Jungle but she is hysterical, door banging and leaping at the doors. She is as quiet as a mouse when the others are in.

She tends to not want to be caught and then plants. She then tries to spin and tank back to her friends. Once tacked up she is ridable but very edgy with no confidence. It's like she can't think for herself without them around!

She also does not hack alone but this has always been the case.

How do I build confidence just let her get on with it?
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If does sound like she needs a lot of work on confidence being alone. There will be various ways to do this, and it will take a bit of time.

Something I've done is a boomerang type exercise. So for example lead her from the field, go just a short distance and walk back, but don't let her go. Then lead her away again, a bit further, and then back. Keep practising this and her confidence should grow. This can be done hacking too.

If she's strong then a dually or rope haltershould help with control.

With horses like this it's handy to keep some oral sedative in case there's ever an emergency when she needs to be in on her own so you can leave her safely.
 
It's pretty much always horse related when she's naughty. She takes all of her confidence from others and won't lead past something scary unless I lead a friend past first.

She hates leaving the herd as I said previously. She hates being alone without another horse in eyesight hence won't hack alone.

She panics if other horses canter to the fence to investigate her when hacking. This involves an absoloute meltdown.

She overreacts to meeting horses on hacks, lots of panicked snorting and trying to shoot forwards out of the way.

She also is silly if other horses canter or jump near her in the school. Shoots forward in a blind panic and will rear if not allowed to follow said horse.

She's basically a massive pain in the bum!
 
Have you checked her eyesight? My Appy is incredibly spooky at times and the vets think she has limited vision in one eye. There isn't anything obvious when they've looked, but you can't exactly pop a horse in front of various charts and ask them to read the bottom line of letters.
 
littlen said:
It's pretty much always horse related when she's naughty. She takes all of her confidence from others and won't lead past something scary unless I lead a friend past first.

She hates leaving the herd as I said previously. She hates being alone without another horse in eyesight hence won't hack alone.

She panics if other horses canter to the fence to investigate her when hacking. This involves an absoloute meltdown.

She overreacts to meeting horses on hacks, lots of panicked snorting and trying to shoot forwards out of the way.

She also is silly if other horses canter or jump near her in the school. Shoots forward in a blind panic and will rear if not allowed to follow said horse.

She's basically a massive pain in the bum!
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Then it's your job to give her that confidence, it takes time, it takes patience, it is a long road and any time she faces difficulties she may revert to this behaviour but she isn't being bad and this isn't bad behaviour, I think you maybe need a mindset change. She is not confident in herself and at the moment you are not giving her enough confidence in you either and whatever methods you are currently using are not helping, time to employ new tactics.

These behaviours are long term and can sometimes be attributed to a traumatic weaning experience or other trauma along the way.
 
That's really interesting Wheels. I don't know how she was weaned.

How would you suggest confidence building?

At the moment I ask nicely, give her a moment and a pat to work it out then finish with a sharp tap and a growl to make her go if she still won't. Still sometimes she does win the argument as she is strong and quick on her feet especially when she is in panic mode.

Friends tell me to make her do it but I am frightened of making her worse.
 
I think you maybe need to have an assessment with and then continue to work with a behaviourist type person who can help you come up with a plan and to break things down into bite sized chunks.

If your horse is unhappy leaving other horses just to come into the stable for a haynet or groom then how unhappy do you think it makes her having pressure put on her to go out for a solo hack? It must be blowing her mind. People who have never had to deal with severe separation anxiety will not understand but it can be very dangerous for the handler so you need to get some help.
 
littlen said:
That's really interesting Wheels. I don't know how she was weaned.

How would you suggest confidence building?

At the moment I ask nicely, give her a moment and a pat to work it out then finish with a sharp tap and a growl to make her go if she still won't. Still sometimes she does win the argument as she is strong and quick on her feet especially when she is in panic mode.

Friends tell me to make her do it but I am frightened of making her worse.
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Wheels said:
I think you maybe need to have an assessment with and then continue to work with a behaviourist type person who can help you come up with a plan and to break things down into bite sized chunks.

If your horse is unhappy leaving other horses just to come into the stable for a haynet or groom then how unhappy do you think it makes her having pressure put on her to go out for a solo hack? It must be blowing her mind. People who have never had to deal with severe separation anxiety will not understand but it can be very dangerous for the handler so you need to get some help.
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I agree you need someone to help you get her over this, you say you "give her a moment and a pat to work it out" this to me could be causing more harm than good, a well timed pat can give reassurance but if wrongly timed can reinforce her lack of confidence, if the pat is while she is stood thinking rather than when she has taken a step forward then you are telling her that standing and looking is fine, which it is, but if that is then followed by you tapping and growling your signals are confusing at least.
I never pat mine when they are taking in the problem, they get a reward once they have thought it through and moved forward or wherever it is I want them to go.

I helped one of my liveries a while ago who was having problems with traffic, the pony was going backwards a few steps away from bigger things, she was trying to reassure him by patting him, he went back even more, by changing her reaction to being totally passive he stopped going backwards, he then got a pat once he went forward, he quickly stopped being bothered by the traffic as she had stopped rewarding him for going backwards, it was not obvious to her that her timing was causing some of the issue once she realised is was easily changed, you may not be contributing to your mares behaviour but it is worth looking at from a different perspective.
 
If it was my mare I'd be doing some ground work with her. It doesn't need to be anything fancy or for long, but a few minutes spent with a rope halter on in the arena, moving her feet and getting her to focus on you would be very worthwhile trying. Have a look at Richard Maxwell's work. Horses really want a leader they can trust and you just need to work out how to become that person.
 
Thank you to both of you.

My reasoning was that it was just a faze as she has previously been more than happy to leave the herd, be tied up and groomed and I have spent he past 7 months working her without issue. She has been building confidence in her work slowly and was working reasonably well most of the time (bar the usual baby type moments!)

However, in the past 4-5 weeks she has become very unsettled and difficult and seems to have lost every bit of confidence she has ever had. I'm unsure as to what the issue is but I have had all the usual checks done to find nothing. She has already had a full work up last month for an unrelated issue so I'm confident it's behavioural and not physical. It's like she is obsessed with the others and can't survive without them.

I am going to contact a behaviourist and go from there!
 
It's so difficult to know what sets them off with something like this

I would maybe check the teeth again as there is a lot going on in the mouth at this age. my last horse had his teeth done about 8 times between age 4 and 6 and always needed something doing - his mouth settled down after that.

It maybe nothing physical - maybe big arguments or changes within the herd that you will never know and never be able to work out what is going on but have to deal with the consequences all the same
 
Could you have a look at her mineral balance i.e. test your forage - magnesium is often sold as a one-off calmer but allegedly most horses in the UK are magnesium deficient. I don't think it would solve your issue but wouldn't do any harm to have a look and balancing her diet might just take some of the edge off.

I don't know whether to be reassured or worried by this thread - my four year old has just decided to be a Kevin about leading out and it's nice to hear that I'm not alone with this type of problem but horrific to think it might repeat or even get worse in her later years.
 
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