when 'freestyle' is taken a bit too literally!

I think it's a bit hard to see dead eyes at that distance and in a video. I agree that some of the youngsters might be a bit overwhelmed, but I do think that sometimes people mistake relaxed for something shut down. Ears don't have to be pricked forward for a horse to be relaxed and thinking. Any horse can look hesitant and nervous when working in an arena in front of a crowd, particularly when they haven't done it much. All of our competing horses started somewhere (and possibly in some cases not as gentle an introduction as this).

I think the aims of this are really good, and these little babies should make great ridden horses one day. If you can manage to deal with the fact that dressage is just as much about asking a horse to do something as this is (possibly more testing on them sometimes) then I don't see anything wrong with this at all. I saw some lovely ponies treated much worse by children, under instruction, at a clear round jumping evening only last week. Why the need to pick everything apart so critically in minute detail on this forum? I see much more unhappy and shut down horses than this every time I go to a competitive event in this country. Which is why I don't go often.
 
Okay, so some of it is slightly wacky but, overall, I see youngsters, both human and equine, bonding and going through desensitising games that will lead to these mustangs going on to live useful, productive lives. For me, this is better than them going into cans to feed pampered pooches. How radically different is this really from police horses going through training, kids doing handy pony classes or Le Trec?
 
Don't get me wrong. Promoting the breed in this way will do them huge favours and hopefully stop so many of these intelligent horses ending up in dog food. I also think that training horses to do things like this is great and will defiantly help them to go on to be bold ridden horses. Maybe ' dead behind the eyes' was too strong but there are a couple (not all) who look sedated, maybe im just used to lively youngsters but one or 2 just dont look right, to me. It's only my opinion I'm not saying I am right just what it looks like to me. I totally agree I see 100 times worse at the local clear round
 
My 4yr old at the first big horsey gathering she has attended. About one minute after I took her off the trailer. She went on to complete a 20km ride under the allowed time without breaking a sweat. She then plodded back onto the trailer! She just doesn't get her up about such things. It's a good thing!

 
Some of the things were for show and I can't say I was totally comfortable with all of it but thats because I'm viewing it from a human perspective not a horse's.

Trouble is in this country we prefer our youngsters to be bargy, rude, rear, drag you up the field, get away from you when leading in/out, roll in the middle of the path back from the field (yes this happened at my yard this week). At least that's my experience of watching a lot of youngsters being brought up by non-professionals.

Later on in life there are so many horses that won't be tied up, won't load, nap going out of the yard, bad in ttraffic, spook and spin at the slightest thing what joy it would be for the 90% of average leisure riders if they had a horse that was trained like this.

We don't leave children until they are 16 before starting to educate them so I don't really understand the ethos that anything under 3 should not have to do anything except cavort around a field joyously showing its heels to your face.
 
I think thats great, no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but no whips were used and the horses didn't look forced, just perhaps a bit confused at times, I did like the one in the tutu! :eek:
 
Maybe it's a cultural thing?

A lot of the stuff those kids were doing in the video are things I have done with my horses, back when I lived in the US, as part of general ground training and densensitizing work. It is all within the realm of normal to me (and weird that people don't do it here!). This includes stepping up onto things, going over, under, and wearing tarps, walking over teeter-totters, picking up and handing me objects, pushing an exercise ball around, wearing anything and everything I can work out how to attach to them, all the yielding in hand exercises seen on the video (leg-yield, turn on forehand, turn on haunches, mainly), yielding shoulders or haunches while handler sits on a high fence (or truck, or whatever, but I used a fence), sidepassing over a pole, doing various cavaletti configurations in hand, backing up in an L shaped channel of poles.

Just for the record, there are things in that video I haven't done. These include attaching a boat to the horse, lunging from the top of a pickup truck, crawling underneath the horse, and wearing a very very short skirt.
 
KatPT said:
There aren't many things that wind me up (ok, that's a lie, but I don't usually post on them) but it really bothers me when people think that getting your horse to jump in hand, or stand on podiums, or pick things up is any more degrading than dressage or showjumping. It's all asking the horse to do something we want it to do (admittedly I have seen my horse do a fine passage in the field, but I have also seen him climb on his podium out there too). What that video says to me is those miss have spent a huge amount of time and patience on those horses, something many horses sadly miss out on. I find it far more degrading that many (not saying all or even most) people run up to the yard, throw tack on their horse and go straight to riding it in circles without a thought of its mental stimulation, then throw it back in the stable.
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I'm not disagreeing that time has been spent, just that I found it a bit circus like.

And yes I do a lot of work to make my horses bombproof too. The horse that I event would easily do handy pony.

Elsiecat said:
Out of interest, do you feel the same about Dressage?
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Yes, at top levels I find it uncomfortable to watch 75% of the horses. I have to say I felt the same when I saw a Spanish Riding School show too once they got to the airs above the ground part.

Only my opinion and what I thought watching. Glad a lot of you liked it. The horses weren't harmed, obviously. I'm not saying I thought it was cruel, just a bit ugly.

TBH, I've probably seen some ponies dressed up as allsorts of things over the years in fancy dress competitions that are as bad!
 
Tiffany said:
Found some of the video uncomfortable to watch :( When you watch dog agility they usually look excited, their tales wag and handlers struggle to keep up with some of them. IMO some of the horses looked unhappy, no life in their eyes and a few looked a little hesitant and nervous.

I'm sure it's harmless but it's not for me.
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I sure as heck wouldn't want to be struggling to keep up with an excited baby horse. I enjoyed it immensely, those horses won't have any trailering issues in future.
 
I think some people are viewing this round the wrong way ... These are kids who have had only 90 days to train these "wild" babies as a way to showcase what is possible and to show the ability and versatility of the mustang breed. So many of these unwanted horses end of going for slaughter, this is a way of showing what can be achieved in a short space of time with these smart little horses. So what about the silly costumes? And it's their choice not to wear helmets (although I think I draw the line at running beside a horse with no shoes on :eek:) .... I think it's great to see these kids learning responsibility, patience and dedication and to see these horses put to a use and on the stepping stone to become lovely, calm, well mannered riding horses. Rather that than in a cheap burger (heehee!) or in a can of dog food .....
 
I enjoyed most of it, I was amased by the second horse on the see-saw! I agree some of the horses looked a bit overwhelmed, but so do many youngsters at their first show in the UK. If this is the alternative to them going for meat then even better. Perhaps someone should set something similar up for Dartmoor Hill Ponies in the UK.

The one thing I thought was outright dangerous was the girl who bounced onto her horse's loins! I thought that had potential to do some serious injury to both her and the horse.
 
Caol Ila said:
Maybe it's a cultural thing?

A lot of the stuff those kids were doing in the video are things I have done with my horses, back when I lived in the US, as part of general ground training and densensitizing work. It is all within the realm of normal to me (and weird that people don't do it here!). This includes stepping up onto things, going over, under, and wearing tarps, walking over teeter-totters, picking up and handing me objects, pushing an exercise ball around, wearing anything and everything I can work out how to attach to them, all the yielding in hand exercises seen on the video (leg-yield, turn on forehand, turn on haunches, mainly), yielding shoulders or haunches while handler sits on a high fence (or truck, or whatever, but I used a fence), sidepassing over a pole, doing various cavaletti configurations in hand, backing up in an L shaped channel of poles.

Just for the record, there are things in that video I haven't done. These include attaching a boat to the horse, lunging from the top of a pickup truck, crawling underneath the horse, and wearing a very very short skirt.
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Definitely cultural IMO.

I'm not enamored by the current trend of Americans coming here and teaching "grandmothers to suck eggs".

But there is a cultural lack of doing things with ponies/horses when they can't be ridden.

Somebody I know at the moment can't ride her pony (bad rug rub on the withers). So she doesn't do anything with him other than grooming/short walks. It's as if when the main focus (riding) is missing, the time spent with the pony gets less and less, the yard time is spent on other things.

I think it has a lot to do with the weather and lack of space/facilities though.

It's bloody freezing standing in a field teaching your pony to lead nicely, walk by your side without barging, get them desensitised to the scary chopped down tree stump ect.

And how many schools where people have to share, are OK to have a loose pony in them for a long time learning stuff?
Lunging yes, that's seen as "proper".
 
Well, absolutely train young horses to be brave, well behaved and deal with obstables. I just don't like the style of training - as I said, it looks rough and ready, the horses look confused and unhappy, and the handling tends to lack sensitivity.

In contrast, here's a young horse doing something similar, but the training has quite clearly been very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q34mHS8I8JQ&list=PL2xRzJnr6Q22DIzVJgiMSHxKDWYUCt5PN
 
Honey08 said:
Yes, at top levels I find it uncomfortable to watch 75% of the horses. I have to say I felt the same when I saw a Spanish Riding School show too once they got to the airs above the ground part.

Only my opinion and what I thought watching. Glad a lot of you liked it. The horses weren't harmed, obviously. I'm not saying I thought it was cruel, just a bit ugly.

TBH, I've probably seen some ponies dressed up as allsorts of things over the years in fancy dress competitions that are as bad!
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Interesting. I must admit, there has been occasions where I have pitied high level horses. More so because of the way some are treated eg. individual turnout. Just as if they're not allowed to just be a horse.

I did enjoy the video though, especially as these were completely unhandled horses. It just goes to show what some dedication can achieve!
 
Clava said:
Me too. Lifeless, trained to death horses.
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Quite ironic don't you think that you have said this yet if they hadn't had this training they would in fact have gone to the slaughterhouse and actually be dead?

Also they have come from the wild and have only been in training for 3 MONTHS!

How is this 'trained to death' ???

Not my cup of tea at all but I think to a wonderful thing to see and amazing that these kids and horses can bond in such a short amount of time.

Ok, some of them are looking a little confused at times but I certainly wouldn't have a clue where to start with a completely wild yearling and I think they have done a fantastic job promoting the wild mustangs as a useful breed :)
 
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Im not sure of what happens in the junior version but have watched a DVD of the adult Mustang challange and found it amazing and inspiring. The bond that forms between the Mustangs and the trainers is just superb:)
 
All groundwork is good groundwork (obviously not involving harshbtechniques etc etc)far as I'm concerned. People may see it as pointless stupid acts, but it's all good grace and preparation for a solid reliable thinking horse when older IMO.
 
Aarrghimpossiblepony said:
Definitely cultural IMO.

I'm not enamored by the current trend of Americans coming here and teaching "grandmothers to suck eggs".

But there is a cultural lack of doing things with ponies/horses when they can't be ridden.

Somebody I know at the moment can't ride her pony (bad rug rub on the withers). So she doesn't do anything with him other than grooming/short walks. It's as if when the main focus (riding) is missing, the time spent with the pony gets less and less, the yard time is spent on other things.

I think it has a lot to do with the weather and lack of space/facilities though.

It's bloody freezing standing in a field teaching your pony to lead nicely, walk by your side without barging, get them desensitised to the scary chopped down tree stump ect.

And how many schools where people have to share, are OK to have a loose pony in them for a long time learning stuff?
Lunging yes, that's seen as "proper".
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I am perpetually surprised by the lack of emphasis on groundwork and the way people regard it as silly and frivolous, or not even on their radar. The way I grew up with horses, it was just the done thing.

For example, I had advised the owner of a horse I'm riding once per week to spend some time doing groundwork with the horse. Both horse and owner are green, so when the owner rides horse in the arena, it results in frustration for both of them. However, I thought (and think) if the horse were lead through and around various obstacles and pole-on-the ground configurations and worked on the yielding exercises, she would become more accustomed to new things and get a better sense of where her feet were. The horse's biggest challenges are that she's very spooky and very klutzy and unbalanced. But I think what I said was so outside the owner's cultural frame of reference that she couldn't quite get her head around it as a concrete thing.

I would venture that this type of work is more common in the Western US than the East, or at least it was back in the early 2000s. I also think that my boarding barn put a lot of emphasis on doing this sort of work. I had a trainer who was a TTEAM practitioner at one point, for instance, and a few years later worked with a trainer who had been a student of Buck Brannaman. Even the more "traditional" dressage trainers at the place had, for instance, studied Sally Swift (Centred Riding). Anyway, I digress...

All the silliness can pay off. Back when I was showing, we were at a multiday dressage show in Upstate New York and the horses were in the temporary stabling. My horse was in a corner stall and a bit of the big canvass tarp that formed the roof of the stabling had come loose in that corner, and about two feet of it was hanging in front of my stall door. Also, it was cleverly set up so the pole holding the structure up prevented the door of my horse's stall from opening all the way. Thus, my horse had to push through the flappy tarp and walk through the narrow doorway to get to her stall. This she did, unfazed, for the whole three day show. Several other competitors commented on her cool attitude and were happy they weren't in that stall.
 
Tiffany said:
Found some of the video uncomfortable to watch :( When you watch dog agility they usually look excited, their tales wag and handlers struggle to keep up with some of them. IMO some of the horses looked unhappy, no life in their eyes and a few looked a little hesitant and nervous.

I'm sure it's harmless but it's not for me.
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Thats what I think. Reminds me of that "competition" which was on Horse & Country TV a few weeks ago where 3 men had to back their "wild" horse in only about 4 hours total... sure it can be done but I think you have to break the horses spirit to do it! In fact I think it was the adult version of this kid one. The horses all looked way to young to have done all this stuff anyway.
 
Brightbay said:
Well, absolutely train young horses to be brave, well behaved and deal with obstables. I just don't like the style of training - as I said, it looks rough and ready, the horses look confused and unhappy, and the handling tends to lack sensitivity.

In contrast, here's a young horse doing something similar, but the training has quite clearly been very different.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q34mHS8I8JQ&list=PL2xRzJnr6Q22DIzVJgiMSHxKDWYUCt5PN
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What training, he's just following a handful of feed around, there's no training, I could go out and do that with one of my cows tomorrow.
 
The horses are clearly confused (or perhaps doubting is a better word) at times - but also clearly trust the handlers enough to get on and give it a go, and those handlers clearly aren't using force. It's not all elegant, no, but that's not really the point.

Horses don't generally "tolerate" things out of the goodness of their heart - usually if they're "tolerating" some sort of foolish human behaviour, it's because the human has taken steps to introduce it in an acceptable way.

I don't believe that horse was beaten into accepting being dressed up in a boat - I think it was introduced slowly and carefully, just as we would introduce any other peculiar human behaviour, like expecting a horse to clamber into a mysterious box that moves, or having sheets of fabric strapped on to it, or having metal nailed on to its feet.
 
I'm not keen on any of it and certainly not with babies. That is a personal thing though but I don't think any of them I watched are happy even the food trained Exmoor I'm afraid. A lot of head shaking going on there. I didn't watch much of either videos though. I do think it's hard to get a horse really engaged in this sort of stuff myself. I have yet to see a video I feel the horses are truly happy. Perhaps I am projecting my views which is quite possible. I've never quite got over my youthful aversion to training dolphins and whales etc.to do tricks.
 
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