jilly2024
Active Member
This is 100% exactly what I dont want to happen. Id maybe be less pessimistic about forelimb suspensories but hindlimb... I cant see a sound horse in 12 months time.
Thanks for your reply, it really helps x
When is enough enough
- Thread starter jilly2024
- Start date
Thanks for your reply, it really helps x
jilly2024
Active Member
I dont personally think he is too sore to be turned away. He is in good spirits, walks sound and tracks up in hand. So I will suggest this, but ultimately i dont want to prolong the inevitable but equally ill give him any chance I can. So thank you. Was yous an accute or chronic susp injury? Did you have other compounding issues? Xo
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Yes, you do know, and I think you’ve known for some time - doesn’t make it any easier, as everyone reading all this knows. You take care of yourself and your other one, time to focus on that. X
jilly2024
Active Member
Thank you, sometimes the self-care bit gets totally lost amongst the vets bills and worrying.
Thank you again x
GypsGal1718
Well-Known Member
I would give him some time off with painkillers and out 24/7. You say you don’t want to delay the inevitable but he may be totally comfortable in the field and have a great life. He does not need to come back to ridden work. It is better for him to be happy in the field than die. Nature does wonders. If you do not want to keep an unridden horse then hand him to a rescue. He deserves a life .
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alibali
Well-Known Member
OP in relation to the previous post I'm sure that you are as aware as everyone else living in the real world that there are no reputable rescues out there with the space or resources to have horses with multiple serious physical issues offloaded onto them. You sound as if you have already gone above and beyond both emotionally and financially in efforts to heal your horse and despite this are struggling to get and keep him even field sound.
No one can make these difficult decisions for you but sometimes the hardest decision to make is the kindest one not just for you but for your horse as well.
No one can make these difficult decisions for you but sometimes the hardest decision to make is the kindest one not just for you but for your horse as well.
lme
Well-Known Member
I think it depends on how important it is to you that he can have a ridden career and also on whether he can be turned away comfortably. PTS isn't a welfare issue, but it sounds as if you may find it hard. One of my horses is a 4yo, who is field sound but wouldn't stand up to ridden work due to issues that aren't fixable. However, I have other horses in work and, if he is no longer happy, he will be PTS.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Pardon, have you actually read and understood the case history?
Furthermore, do you appreciate the difference between being signed to a reputable rescue charity - all of which are full to overflowing - and being kept on the breadline by little better than an animal hoarder?
This horse has been used to the best of attention, treatment and care, HE certainly deserves better than that, and his conscientious owner does NOT deserve your guilt trip.
Furthermore, do you appreciate the difference between being signed to a reputable rescue charity - all of which are full to overflowing - and being kept on the breadline by little better than an animal hoarder?
This horse has been used to the best of attention, treatment and care, HE certainly deserves better than that, and his conscientious owner does NOT deserve your guilt trip.
GypsGal1718
Well-Known Member
Sorry did not mean to upset.
J_sarahd
Well-Known Member
As someone who went through something very similar, you have my complete and utter sympathy. It’s so hard when you try so hard and wonder “what if the next thing I try works?” But how long can you keep going like that, kicking the can down the street as my vet put it? We only ever want whats best for them and sometimes whats best for them is to let them go.
dapple_grey
Well-Known Member
Really sorry to hear you're in this position. I was in a similar one last year, and it's hard feeling like you're 'playing God' with them.
Turning away doesn't always work and it can be difficult to assess how comfortable they are out in the field. I tried turning mine away for a lameness that we couldn't get to the bottom of despite every diagnostic tool going. It looked like it was working a few months in until he suddenly went rapidly downhill and I had him PTS. If you do choose to turn away make sure they are checked properly as it can happen so quickly. There were other horses out with mine that I personally thought looked way too lame to be comfortable out in the field.
It does sound like the time has come for yours and there's no shame in calling it a day. Hugs x
Turning away doesn't always work and it can be difficult to assess how comfortable they are out in the field. I tried turning mine away for a lameness that we couldn't get to the bottom of despite every diagnostic tool going. It looked like it was working a few months in until he suddenly went rapidly downhill and I had him PTS. If you do choose to turn away make sure they are checked properly as it can happen so quickly. There were other horses out with mine that I personally thought looked way too lame to be comfortable out in the field.
It does sound like the time has come for yours and there's no shame in calling it a day. Hugs x
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jilly2024
Active Member
Yes I am totally aware, I unfortunately bought one who was retired young previously and he is out with my older boy in a field, but he wouldnt go anywhere else. This is for me to deal with, and me only x
jilly2024
Active Member
This is exactly where I am, that what if.
He had his scans, there are changes in both but vet wants to get a proper discussion about the whole case with the referral vet, then we can consider and discuss recovery stats/probability and what is best for the horse (and maybe me too) x
jilly2024
Active Member
Totally agree, my old boy is out on retirement and I do keep an eye constantly on him. This would be no different. Vet said would be ok to turn away for a few months but the problem wont resolve itself so it would really be to get some space and perspective than to expect a miracle recovery.
playing god is a great description, he is in great form and is totally unaware we are having these discussions bless him
alibali
Well-Known Member
I wish every horse was lucky enough to have an owner that stepped up to their responsibilities this way. There would be far fewer heartbreaking for sale/loan adverts and emptier pens at the bin end markets. I hope you don't think for one second I thought any differently in relation to your previous posts, I only posted in response to the previous poster who wanted you to pass your responsibility on to a rescue ....
jilly2024
Active Member
So, to anyone who has made it this far!
He has his ulstrasounds and has "moderate chronic changes" in both hinds, worse left hind.
The figures ive been given are:
75-80% of horses return to work provided its the only source of lameness (with his history, I know he had that fracture and I know he has SI changes, is it plausible that fixing this would bring him sound?)
Literature says 6-8 months recovery time but in the vets experience its typically shorter.
I go between PTS and move on, its all far too much after already being 12-18months in with other issues, and "sure whats 6 - 8 more months"
God forgive me for saying this but it wluld almost be easier if he had a catastrophic field injury as there isnt the element of choice or a decision to make. Selfishly, I want to ride. I dont have another ridden horse, just retirees and i dont have the funds for another retiree.
Sorry- I also appreciate yous arent therapists but I am pulling my hair out over this. We have barely got started in our ridden career together
feels awful to consider just stopping trying
He has his ulstrasounds and has "moderate chronic changes" in both hinds, worse left hind.
The figures ive been given are:
75-80% of horses return to work provided its the only source of lameness (with his history, I know he had that fracture and I know he has SI changes, is it plausible that fixing this would bring him sound?)
Literature says 6-8 months recovery time but in the vets experience its typically shorter.
I go between PTS and move on, its all far too much after already being 12-18months in with other issues, and "sure whats 6 - 8 more months"
God forgive me for saying this but it wluld almost be easier if he had a catastrophic field injury as there isnt the element of choice or a decision to make. Selfishly, I want to ride. I dont have another ridden horse, just retirees and i dont have the funds for another retiree.
Sorry- I also appreciate yous arent therapists but I am pulling my hair out over this. We have barely got started in our ridden career together
feels awful to consider just stopping trying View
Well-Known Member
It’s easy for me to say because it’s not my decision to make.
But you know it’s not the only injury. Horses are incredibly stoic, and from my personal experience of a chronic issue, I had no idea of what pain free was like until I was pain free after the operation.
You are under an incredible amount of stress, and will likely not know how much until the stress has been removed.
Nobody here will blame you if you make the PTS decision- that’s not a welfare issue. A peaceful way out is the final act of kindness we owe our friends.
But you know it’s not the only injury. Horses are incredibly stoic, and from my personal experience of a chronic issue, I had no idea of what pain free was like until I was pain free after the operation.
You are under an incredible amount of stress, and will likely not know how much until the stress has been removed.
Nobody here will blame you if you make the PTS decision- that’s not a welfare issue. A peaceful way out is the final act of kindness we owe our friends.
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
You are being sensible. The vets are basing the recovery time on what they see now. You are aware that he has come this far in his recovery, and may not improve any further. I suppose it depends on what you intended to do with him. He may be a happy hack for two or three rides out per week, but if you considered jumping or eventing, then realistically, he's not going to stay at that level of soundness for very long. Awful situation to be in, but you will do the right thing.
jilly2024
Active Member
I think Im just looking for some validation for the decision I know in my head is the right one, I really appreciate your reply. Will get through Xmas and then have a very direct conversation with the vet x
jilly2024
Active Member
Yeah and honestly as a hack he is like jekyll and hyde, and I dont think he would be a particularly safe happy hacker and certainly not one Id be confident taking out myself. I want to school, I want to jump, I want to not worry and just be able to ride like everyone else!
Thank you for your reply xo
ycbm
Einstein would be proud of my Insanity...
You have it here. I wrote this yesterday but didn't post it.
20-25% of horses will never return to work after the treatment.
Of the 75-80% who do, how many of those are back in the work they were in, or should have been capable of, before the PSD was found? And how many are now only up to pootling round the block?
How many of them are "sound enough". Vet-speak for "lame but not so lame that we won't tell you the horse shouldn't be ridden" ?
How many of them break down again within a couple of years?
Anecdotally the break down again number is big but as with other operations there seems to be little data around about long term outcomes.
It's also my understanding that acute changes are more treatable than chronic ones. Acute changes suggest a recent injury resulting from a one-off event or a set of circumstances which might be able to be changed. Chronic suggests something long term and ongoing as a cause, which might be difficult to stop and therefore make the PSD impossible to resolve.
It isn't selfish to want to ride, most leisure riders are using riding, to a greater or lesser extent, as a stress relief from the other cares in life. It isn't selfish to need that stress relief, and once you've owned your own it's difficult to find that level of stress relief by riding other people's.
Of course only you can look him in the eyes and decide his fate, but there would be no shame at all in calling it a day now with this horse. I'm so sorry that you are in this situation, horses are such heartbreakers. What a dreadful decision to be making on Christmas day, I hope you can have a good time with your other loved ones.
.
Birker2020
Well-Known Member
You could throw in a field like I have done with Lari my missold boy and hope for the best or bite the bullet and pts. No shame in doing the latter.
I for one couldn't put my broken boy down so gave him a chance at retirement. He's had issues and it's been far from plain sailing and it means I will always have 'a chain around my neck' in terms of costs but he appears happy, is a good weight, gets on with the others, bar one that kicks, we've seen him trot and canter, roll and buck and fart. He's independent and thriving this winter bar a recent kick.
As long as he's happy which he appears to be, I will keep him going.
The reason I didn't keep my boy at the livery yard where I kept him before he went to a retirement yard was because I found it incredibly hard knowing i had nothing to ride and seeing people having fun on their horses and it just twisted the knife in more and more. It was so hard and I felt a number of emotions, pure hate for the woman who sold him to me and put me in this position, envy that my friends were off competing and having fun, seeing people ride and jump when all I could do was watch from the sidelines and do endless groundwork which never made him sound enough to ride. If I'd have had 17yrs riding out of him like I did my Bailey, it would have been different, but I had 17 rides on him in total.
Everyone is different. If the urge to ride is so great and you can't afford to keep two horses (I'm looking for another but can only afford it as Mum pays 2/3rds of Lari's costs ) then you must pts. No one will think bad of you. Just don't go down the rabbit hole of mental pain, self doubt and anxiety looking for false hope to be able to ride agsin, like I did because it does you no good, the worry and stress. Some can't be fixed, sadly it's as simple as that.
I for one couldn't put my broken boy down so gave him a chance at retirement. He's had issues and it's been far from plain sailing and it means I will always have 'a chain around my neck' in terms of costs but he appears happy, is a good weight, gets on with the others, bar one that kicks, we've seen him trot and canter, roll and buck and fart. He's independent and thriving this winter bar a recent kick.
As long as he's happy which he appears to be, I will keep him going.
The reason I didn't keep my boy at the livery yard where I kept him before he went to a retirement yard was because I found it incredibly hard knowing i had nothing to ride and seeing people having fun on their horses and it just twisted the knife in more and more. It was so hard and I felt a number of emotions, pure hate for the woman who sold him to me and put me in this position, envy that my friends were off competing and having fun, seeing people ride and jump when all I could do was watch from the sidelines and do endless groundwork which never made him sound enough to ride. If I'd have had 17yrs riding out of him like I did my Bailey, it would have been different, but I had 17 rides on him in total.
Everyone is different. If the urge to ride is so great and you can't afford to keep two horses (I'm looking for another but can only afford it as Mum pays 2/3rds of Lari's costs ) then you must pts. No one will think bad of you. Just don't go down the rabbit hole of mental pain, self doubt and anxiety looking for false hope to be able to ride agsin, like I did because it does you no good, the worry and stress. Some can't be fixed, sadly it's as simple as that.
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Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Nobody on here will tell you that you shouldn't pts if that is what you decide is best. You have tried everything that you could and he still isn't truly sound.
View
Well-Known Member
You have your validation.
YCBM has very eloquently given all the reasons why I wouldn’t press on with treatment and rehab.
Some would say that I am cold hearted because I have made that decision much sooner than others would. But I have also been the one wincing and crying for the horses, cats, dogs et al kept going too long.
But you also need to look after yourself - and sometimes that means we make the call now, not in 6 months. Don’t beat yourself up - you will make the right decision for you both in your specific circumstances.
jilly2024
Active Member
Thank you so much for this. I also think acute seems to be more successfully treated, which doesnt apply to us unfortunately.
The vet texted to ask if i needed another chat through and ive text back to say yes but that I cant see him coming/staying sound and we need to discuss other options (which Im sure is fairly clear).
This is my first forum experience and honestly am blown away by how supportive, knowledgeable and direct/honest everyone is. So thank you
jilly2024
Active Member
This all rings so similar. Sorry you are having such a rubbish time with Lari, people who miss-sell are just hateful, but at least he has you now and you clearly care very deeply for him.
I have an old horse on retirement already, so unfortunately this isnt likely to be a long term option for B. But its not totally off the cards as my yard have started offering grass livery. He is full ID tho so living out on good grazing is not really practical or healthy for him longer term.
Will speak to the vet today/tomorrow, but same as you- I dont want to be on the sidelines watching anymore.
Thanks for your reply and hope Lari is okay x
Pearlsasinger
Up in the clouds
Just be aware that these days vets seem to be reluctant to say pts unless the owner suggests it first.
Highmileagecob
Well-Known Member
It also depends on whether your vet is independent or working for one of the large group practices, who may have differing criteria for ending treatment. I'm thinking of the policy that everything and the kitchen sink should be thrown at the problem before calling it a day. Stay strong.
Exasperated
Well-Known Member
Jilly, you are having the most agonising and protracted time with all this, having done your evident utmost for the horse. You now need to take care of yourself.
If any demurring from the vet - for whatever ‘reason’ - simply call the local hunt. Non-judgemental and very, very used to tactfully dealing with both horses and their owners.
TheMule
Well-Known Member
This is total rubbish- vets will advise on treatment options unless the horse meets the BETA guidelines for immediate PTS for welfare reasons. Of course, if you want to consider PTS before that point (as would I) then that is absolutely fine, and I'm sure the vet will be happy to discuss that too. It really has nothing to do with who the vet works for.