When is it time to call it a day, feeling desperate!!

I'm with Wagtail on this one. PTS would not be the first thing I'd consider at this stage. What he did at the gate is not unusual at all for 'normal' horses let alone ones who have had traumatic moments in their lives. The way a horse like this would be dealt with on my farm would be to separate that horse from all others, keep it out 24/7 in a very small paddock, fed by routine (small amounts, often), a halter would be left on permanently with a long leather or nylon grab strap. The horse would be reliant on the human for absolutely everything. This would continue for however long it takes to get the horse back under my wing, alongside a new work ethic, alone. This most likely runs totally contrary to what most people over in the UK would do and will likely be seen as appalling treatment, but I've done it numerous times, and it has always worked for me, and more importantly it saved a number of horses from death and turned them into useful members of the equine community.

It all depends how much you want this horse and how much you are prepared to go through to bring him back. 'Bring him back' being the most important thing here; the horse has been there before, no reason he shouldn't find himself again. Good luck whatever you choose to do.
 
I have an ex racehorse/eventer who is early 20's and semi-retired - he was extremely skittish around other horses, bargy and would bolt before you got a chance to properly undo his headcollar so ended up quite often running round the field with headcollar and leadrope attached. He didn't connect with other horses or people at all but, as a racehorse/eventer wasn't expexted to - he just had to show up to work each day - they didn't care if he didn't lead properly, etc., so long as he won! I worked on boundary's and leading and, although he is not ridden anymore, he has become so good at leading and boundarys that he now has a job teaching people how to lead! He will never retire out 24/7 as he actually prefers his stable - he has a choice in the winter as I have stables attached to a turnout area and the stables are left open - he will come out for a few minutes to stretch his legs, roll and eat but then he turns round and goes back in, especially if it is wet or windy! When he goes out to the summer field, he doesn't bolt off at the gate anymore as he waits for a treat - to start with he was getting a treat just for staying with me, then it was just as we went through the gate and now he turns to face me when we get through the gate and waits until I take the headcollar off before he gets a treat and then he wanders off - no more bolting off. The not connecting with people was something that a lady I have worked with over a number of years (Kathleen Lindley) spotted - he would just ever so slightly turn his head, or sometimes just an ear or eye, away from me as I approached him - it took time but he now looks at me. I know that my boy is no longer dangerous to be around (not from nastiness, just fear and anxiety (adrenalin rush) - which was encouraged for racing and eventing) but he will never be completely predictable.

I should counter all of above with the thought that sometimes things are in there so deep, you will never really get them out and you have to think of what is best for you and your horse - mental anguish can be just as painful as a physical one and if he could endanger himself, other horses or yourself or other people, then you need to think long and hard as it is not just his welfare that you need to consider - Kathleen once said to me "so only you can look after your horse", what happens if something happens to you"? I responded that I didn't know, and she said "your horse will end up in a can!" She went on to say that "what you want is a horse that anyone can do anything with", then he will be assured of a good home should anything happen to you". This really got me thinking and, what has happened to your horse when you had to find him a new home, is a good example of what can happen to a troubled horse - maybe making a choice to have him PTS now will save him from further abuse down the line, should anything happen to you!
 
You mention getting him a companion, does this mean he's on his own? Is he bad with other horses?
I'd be tempted to throw him out in a field with at least one other horse, make sure this horse likes people, and see if he'll let his companion educate him that people aren't so bad.
I've done this with 2 horses who I've bought out of pity, both got put out with my people friendly welsh piglet and both did come round.
If this didn't work, I'd consider pts at the end of the summer as at very least, he'd have had time to learn to be a horse again with a friend.
 
Just to add op, we often think nothing of pts a horse with health issues in their best interests. A horse with emotional issues is just as ill in my opinion and living in a fearful state can be torturous.

He 'might' come right enough given time and understanding, but I'd question whether the suffering and trauma in the meantime is worth it, not to mention the physical issues he has. With a young family to contend with then the job will be even harder for you.
I also think that there is often an element of us wanting to fix things and make them right as we often feel guilt at what has happened. It can be a great salve to our conscience to see a happy healthy horse again, but then the reality can often prove to be quite different, and the important thing in all of this is the happiness of the horse and your safety. It could potentially take months or even years to restore his confidence, if ever, and as horses live 'in the now' I'm not sure it is fair to subject such a traumatised horse to that.

I wish you well in whatever decision you make.
 
What a sad story OP. Poor boy.
I am another that, at this point would not pts. You have broken your heart over him for the last few years. Your persistence in bringing him home has paid off and by the sound of it the last four months have been very positive. Now within 24 hours things seem bad ( because of a muddy gateway!) I have a job getting mine through a puddle he's so precious about getting his feet wet!
Build up his trust by visiting as much as possible and NOT catching him. Treat him and walk away. Then move around him at a distance not even looking at him.
There is nothing more frustrating than a horse that won't be caught, reverse psychology works, chasing him around doesn't.
Hopefully once caught, maybe hours, days, weeks but fence off a much smaller area and start making him rely on you.
I sincerely hope things work out after all you have been through.
 
What a horrible situation for you and for him. I agree with the sedation to get the chifney off, but once you've managed that I'd give him a little bit more time and gentle persuasion before considering PTS. I'm not sure if it would work with your poor boy, as my old boy was the opposite to him - very arrogant and basically playing a game rather than frightened - but he'd go through phases of not wanting to be caught. I would take a bucket of feed, a chair and a book into the field, put the bucket under the chair, sit down and read my book. Within 10 minutes he'd be after the food at which point I'd ignore him for 5 minutes then get up and take the chair and the food out with me without acknowledging him at all. I'd then go back half an hour later give him one shout and he'd come racing to the gate! I wouldn't expect such an extreme reaction from yours, but maybe if you just sat on the chair and ignored him for a while - maybe with the bucket next to you rather than under it or maybe move it to your lap slowly? It might help him to build his trust in you again, maybe if you're seated you might seem less of a threat?
 
lots of very valid points here, thank you everyone. I am still keen to keep things going with him, tonight I was able to get him to eat his dinner from a bucket by my feet, then i lifted it to waist height, then fed him from my hands and after 25 mins or so of bringing him to me with treats then walking away and getting him to follow me he allowed me to slowly get hold of his short bit of rope that I always have on his headcollar and as is usual practice for him , he went to pull away but once he realised I had him and wasnt letting go he sighed and just stood there, I rubbed his head and was able to slowly slip the chiffney buckle open and he very promptly spat it out and turned tail and hot footed it, however he didnt go far away and to be honest I wasnt going to chase him again, what we acheived tonight is a step in the right direction...AGAIN, for now just back to going up with feed and treats, a pat, a watchful eye on the sore leg and then leave him be. I've decided I shall carry on with this routine till my small paddock is rested then take him from there. I do agree with alot of the comments that a little work would keep him ticking over so I will carry on with this in time and see what happens and if we have a successful summer then happy days, if not I will re-asses as and when. Got to give it one last ditch attempt but my eyes are very much open to what could be the end result. Thank you for all your comments and support, its very much appriciated.x
 
Spring Feather said:
I'm with Wagtail on this one. PTS would not be the first thing I'd consider at this stage. What he did at the gate is not unusual at all for 'normal' horses let alone ones who have had traumatic moments in their lives. The way a horse like this would be dealt with on my farm would be to separate that horse from all others, keep it out 24/7 in a very small paddock, fed by routine (small amounts, often), a halter would be left on permanently with a long leather or nylon grab strap. The horse would be reliant on the human for absolutely everything. This would continue for however long it takes to get the horse back under my wing, alongside a new work ethic, alone. This most likely runs totally contrary to what most people over in the UK would do and will likely be seen as appalling treatment, but I've done it numerous times, and it has always worked for me, and more importantly it saved a number of horses from death and turned them into useful members of the equine community.

It all depends how much you want this horse and how much you are prepared to go through to bring him back. 'Bring him back' being the most important thing here; the horse has been there before, no reason he shouldn't find himself again. Good luck whatever you choose to do.
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I am with you here, everytime I have been through this with him I have restarted by using a small well sheltered paddock with horses next door but on his own, (he isnt great out with company anyway, he gets bullied by boys and gets very attached to mares, he tends to become very much of a recluse), I make him rely on me and only me and work in the paddock with him, it has served me brillaintly over the last four months and we had grown a great bond again, I rushed it buy bringing him in and chaging his paddock but I had to as it was a mud pit and his poor legs where really struggling. I do agree with you though. :)
 
lunarlove said:
lots of very valid points here, thank you everyone. I am still keen to keep things going with him, tonight I was able to get him to eat his dinner from a bucket by my feet, then i lifted it to waist height, then fed him from my hands and after 25 mins or so of bringing him to me with treats then walking away and getting him to follow me he allowed me to slowly get hold of his short bit of rope that I always have on his headcollar and as is usual practice for him , he went to pull away but once he realised I had him and wasnt letting go he sighed and just stood there, I rubbed his head and was able to slowly slip the chiffney buckle open and he very promptly spat it out and turned tail and hot footed it, however he didnt go far away and to be honest I wasnt going to chase him again, what we acheived tonight is a step in the right direction...AGAIN, for now just back to going up with feed and treats, a pat, a watchful eye on the sore leg and then leave him be. I've decided I shall carry on with this routine till my small paddock is rested then take him from there. I do agree with alot of the comments that a little work would keep him ticking over so I will carry on with this in time and see what happens and if we have a successful summer then happy days, if not I will re-asses as and when. Got to give it one last ditch attempt but my eyes are very much open to what could be the end result. Thank you for all your comments and support, its very much appriciated.x
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Well done you! He's a very lucky horse to have you. I am of the opinion that horses actually think things over. I know many will think this is rubbish but I have seen it time and time again. Like when you are training them and they just don't get it, and then you bring them out the next day and bingo! They do it first time. You see a certain amount of reasoning in herd behaviour, when a naughty youngster is sent away for bad behaviour. This can go on for sometime until the herd leader decides to let them back in because they have had enough punishment. I bet your horse will think about you removing the chiffney.
 
Prince33Sp4rkle said:
Well done :) glad it's going a bit better today.
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This.... I personally wouldn't PTS yet either. I have seen many horses come back from the brink.... And have a living example of my own. So many people told me to give up and that he was dangerous. Now no one believes me when I tell them what he was like.

Everyone deserves a second chance... And you've come so far... I would give him the summer, get a good team of people around you to advise and help...I know some excellent people who specialise in helping traumatised horses. Depending on where you are... PM me if you want details.

If it runs too deep, reconsider. But it sounds to me like he just needs time.

I hope you crack it :)
 
lunarlove said:
lots of very valid points here, thank you everyone. I am still keen to keep things going with him, tonight I was able to get him to eat his dinner from a bucket by my feet, then i lifted it to waist height, then fed him from my hands and after 25 mins or so of bringing him to me with treats then walking away and getting him to follow me he allowed me to slowly get hold of his short bit of rope that I always have on his headcollar and as is usual practice for him , he went to pull away but once he realised I had him and wasnt letting go he sighed and just stood there, I rubbed his head and was able to slowly slip the chiffney buckle open and he very promptly spat it out and turned tail and hot footed it, however he didnt go far away and to be honest I wasnt going to chase him again, what we acheived tonight is a step in the right direction...AGAIN, for now just back to going up with feed and treats, a pat, a watchful eye on the sore leg and then leave him be. I've decided I shall carry on with this routine till my small paddock is rested then take him from there. I do agree with alot of the comments that a little work would keep him ticking over so I will carry on with this in time and see what happens and if we have a successful summer then happy days, if not I will re-asses as and when. Got to give it one last ditch attempt but my eyes are very much open to what could be the end result. Thank you for all your comments and support, its very much appriciated.x
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I dont have any experience of this kind of thing but i do think what you are doing is amazing. He is very lucky that you spent so long tracking him down and are now spending the time to get him settled and feel safe again - its sounds like you have a great bond. My younger riding mare took a very long time settling with me when i bought her - perhaps 6 to 9 months - and she has none of the trauma of yours, so a blip is always likely in 4 months. Only you know what is right for you and him but i wish you the very best and hope you can get to place with him where you think both he and you are happy - please update as to how are getting on.
 
Ceriann said:
I dont have any experience of this kind of thing but i do think what you are doing is amazing. He is very lucky that you spent so long tracking him down and are now spending the time to get him settled and feel safe again - its sounds like you have a great bond. My younger riding mare took a very long time settling with me when i bought her - perhaps 6 to 9 months - and she has none of the trauma of yours, so a blip is always likely in 4 months. Only you know what is right for you and him but i wish you the very best and hope you can get to place with him where you think both he and you are happy - please update as to how are getting on.
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Thank you very much appriciated, always helps to get a bit of advise when your feeling close to breaking. Will keep the updates coming :) x
 
I havent read all replies but i cried reading your OP. Hun firstly i want to hug you. But then just say ok try retirement and i hope he settles. But if you have to make that decision make it knowing you were there for him. Having made the decision to pts my lass basically due to the mental scars left by previous owner its hard but I was there for her. Listen to what he says to you. Has he had enough. Mentally is he tired. silly questions maybe but sometimes horses go through so much that to let them go peacefully and loved is kindest thing. Please pmif you wish and hey a huge hug x x
 
To be honest you owe this horse one last chance so take it, as for your ex friend could you give her a big kick up the ar*se from most of us, poor old buggar has been through Hell and back and I'm surprised he still trusts people.
 
You poor thing.

If he was mine I'd be thinking PTS. If he panicked I'd be worried what harm he could do to himself or others.

It's a dignified end where his anxiety will be stopped forever. It sounds like you're strong enough to do your best by him and have certainly given him a lot of your energy.

After him being passed around so much you finally know where he is and have the opportunity to keep him safe from harm forever.

Good luck - hugs!! X
 
He sounds traumatised, like he wants to strust you but he cant bring himself to fully do it and at his age with his history I highly think its unlikely he will ever give you it.

I would do the kindest thing for him and PTS, horses can be mentally broken and perfectly sound in body and this can be the worst thing as they are unpredictable and the next time he goes it could be over/through you and with your young children to think of its not worth the risk.

Very very sad for this poor guy, my heart goes out to you and him.
 
Well that's a positive update Lunarlove. I think you know what you're doing, and I think you're the perfect person to help him find himself. I'm glad you are giving him this chance. So many people are so ready to throw in the towel too easily (IMO) so it's a breath of fresh air to hear you saying you're going to give him a proper length of make-or-break time. I so wish you all the best!
 
What a difficult and sad situation. I am glad to hear as well that you are giving the horse a chance. I hope it all comes right. I had a situation with a horse ( will not go into the whole story here) who had lost his trust in people before I got him- some patience and work and in an amazing short time, he was different trusting and happy fellow. I do hope it all works out for you and your horse.
 
Spring Feather said:
Well that's a positive update Lunarlove. I think you know what you're doing, and I think you're the perfect person to help him find himself. I'm glad you are giving him this chance. So many people are so ready to throw in the towel too easily (IMO) so it's a breath of fresh air to hear you saying you're going to give him a proper length of make-or-break time. I so wish you all the best!
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^^^ This. Very best of luck. Only you will know when he has had enough... sounds to me like he really wants to trust you but almost doesn't trust his own judgement - based on his bad experiences......... I know an excellent Behaviourist (not mumbo jumbo) but don't know your area. If you are interested drop me a PM and I can let you know. Good luck and I hope the progress continues x
 
lunarlove said:
lots of very valid points here, thank you everyone. I am still keen to keep things going with him, tonight I was able to get him to eat his dinner from a bucket by my feet, then i lifted it to waist height, then fed him from my hands and after 25 mins or so of bringing him to me with treats then walking away and getting him to follow me he allowed me to slowly get hold of his short bit of rope that I always have on his headcollar and as is usual practice for him , he went to pull away but once he realised I had him and wasnt letting go he sighed and just stood there, I rubbed his head and was able to slowly slip the chiffney buckle open and he very promptly spat it out and turned tail and hot footed it, however he didnt go far away and to be honest I wasnt going to chase him again, what we acheived tonight is a step in the right direction...AGAIN, for now just back to going up with feed and treats, a pat, a watchful eye on the sore leg and then leave him be. I've decided I shall carry on with this routine till my small paddock is rested then take him from there. I do agree with alot of the comments that a little work would keep him ticking over so I will carry on with this in time and see what happens and if we have a successful summer then happy days, if not I will re-asses as and when. Got to give it one last ditch attempt but my eyes are very much open to what could be the end result. Thank you for all your comments and support, its very much appriciated.x
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So pleased to read this OP. Well done tonight and I'm sure your patience will be rewarded. He's a very lucky boy and lots of little positives in the right direction will get you both there eventually.
 
The HHO obsession with pts healthy horses really gets my goat. Fair enough if you can't be bothered with the hassle of this horse any more, OP, but what does he actually do that is so bad? He is good to ride and handle in the stable. He is sound. However he can be hard to catch and hard to lead and is a bit nervous. Like tens of thousands of other horses. Plus much of that is probably due to never being in a consistent home, worked regularly or with a consistent owner for most of his life.

Can you lead him in a bridle (keep an old one for the purpose next to his stable), or failing that, a control headcollar or with a leadrope round his nose so the chifney thing doesn't happen again? Consider moving yards or organising a setup where you have to lead him only a short distance to the field. Establish a routine, stick to it and try to spend at least 45 minutes with him every day.

What does this horse actually do that is so bad that warrants being pts when its only behaving as many other sensitive horses do when the first six months or so in a new place?
 
Good luck OP, you sound like a very kind and patient person and I'm keeping my fingers crossed for your both. He's a lucky boy and with any luck he will reward your kindness with his trust.
 
Mithras said:
The HHO obsession with pts healthy horses really gets my goat. Fair enough if you can't be bothered with the hassle of this horse any more, OP, but what does he actually do that is so bad? He is good to ride and handle in the stable. He is sound. However he can be hard to catch and hard to lead and is a bit nervous. Like tens of thousands of other horses. Plus much of that is probably due to never being in a consistent home, worked regularly or with a consistent owner for most of his life.

Can you lead him in a bridle (keep an old one for the purpose next to his stable), or failing that, a control headcollar or with a leadrope round his nose so the chifney thing doesn't happen again? Consider moving yards or organising a setup where you have to lead him only a short distance to the field. Establish a routine, stick to it and try to spend at least 45 minutes with him every day.

What does this horse actually do that is so bad that warrants being pts when its only behaving as many other sensitive horses do when the first six months or so in a new place?
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Pressing the like button here - pretty much what I'm thinking, especially about the rush to PTS. I often think people (including myself) anthropomorphise horses too much instead of trying to understand the way their brain works and accepting different temperaments as normal. I have a home bred 4 year old (have both dam and sire) who has lived with my small herd since birth and had the same treatment as all the other youngsters who are friendly, cuddly and generally well mannered. He on the other hand is a complete wuss who has never freely allowed handling and seems to think people are out to get him. If you had just met him for the first time you would swear he had been abused. He is in the process of being backed just now and is coming round with gentle care, but much more slowly than any of the others. He is not traumatised or deserving of a dignified death to put him out of his misery, he is just a scaredy cat sensitive boy who needs time.

Well done OP on the loving care you are giving to your boy.
 
well done OP - you obviously love the horse to have tracked him down. My advice would be just be patient and be very consistent. My WB was abused and he went through 5 homes in his first 5 years. He was so bad (dangerously aggressive) that I actually feared for my life everytime I handled him. He has turned around now, but this is 3 years on. I turned him away for about 11 months on his own - he was not in a fit mental state to be inflicted on another horse. It was a slow turnaround but turnaround he did and with a very consistent routine I became his bestfriend. Now he is nearly normal - well what is normal?! he is loving - he trusts me and I can do most things with him and he has a companion too.
 
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