When loaner won't give the horse back....

Thanks ever so much for everyone's advice.

Sorry I'm in a bit of a state so not thinking/typing clearly. No they don't own the yard and there are 3 witnesses there who knew me before I loaned her out who can vouch that she is mine.

The months notice was what we verbally agreed at the time of the loan just to be fair to both parties. I said it today on the phone trying to be fair to them really. I don't know anyone with transport and new yard is 14 miles away so I would have to hire a box which isn't a problem as such but it's not as handy as having someone on hand to just hook up and go at the drop of a hat.

I do have their home address yes. I think its more likely that they are going to take my stuff away than the horse (new saddle which cost £1000 for one thing) to be spitful or thinking it's some sort of insurance/bartering against me taking the horse.
 
I feel for you...have been through this exact same situation..I myself...walked onto said livery farm headed for the field walked in amongst another 30 horses (placing head collar on wrong horse)
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, then realising it was wrong horse..lol, I found my mams horse and walked him off to the end of an extremley long never ending track, then boxed him and left....in the frame of mind I was in at the time..nobody on the livery stood in my way....the loaner was on her way with a horse box at the time...apparently with a police escort...this did not deter me in the least.
We also had no written contract.
We dealt with the legal implications through my mams solicitor and won.
 
Well, I wouldn't worry about the 1 months notice at all then.

Try and get transport asap, even call your new YO, maybe she'll know someone who'll help you out. Go and get your horse, and worry about the tack later. That can be replaced. Call them once you've taken the horse and maybe they'll calm down and be reasonable.
 
Ahhh.....that made me smile (the wrong horse bit!!) . God if anyone is reading this and doesn't have a contract PLEASE draw one up. I didn't think I'd need one as I've known the loaners for a long time but it just goes to show what can happen.
 
if i was not over 4 hours away from devon i would of helped with horse box. perhaps there might be someone on here a bit nearer. you sound very nice but you must be strong its yours and you want it back FULL STOP.
 
Haha...did feel like a bit of a tit doing that...lol...I also took the wrong head collar from the livery stable door and later returned it, once the horse was off.
I electricuted myself on the fencing too
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...the anger and adrenaline helped numb the shock
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tye_bo i really feel for you, and I hope this gets sorted out amicably, and most importantly, so that you get your horse and tack back safely. Good luck, and please let us know how you get on!
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Did you keep the horse at the same livery yard?
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Does the YO know that this horse is on loan?.
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When does the YO come back?
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Have you got the piece of paper or whatever it was that they signed?
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If you have what does it state?
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Without all this sort of info its hard to give an honest opinion as to what you can or can't do. How long have they had your horse on loan to these people?
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Doesn't the law infuriate you. Grrrrr
 
It would be conversion. Theft is when you take something belonging to another with the intention of permanently depriving them of it. Conversion is when you have something legally in your possession, but not actually belonging to you and then you begin to treat it as if it were your own - i.e. sell or attempt to sell a loan horse. You don't necessarily need a written contract to prove ownership; you can often do that by other means i.e. your receipt and witness statements, photos of the horse, you and the horse etc. As long as you have not done something commensurate with giving the horse to them as a gift or having sold it to them, then the horse remains yours. And you do have something as I understand it to say the horse is on loan, however scrappy? I assume it is common knowledge that your horse is out on loan?

Technically if you take it before the agreed time, you would be in breach of contract, but I wouldn't worry about that just yet.

Possession is not nine tenths of the law. The horse does not belong to them, never had and never will, no matter how long they have it. There is no set period after which a horse passes in to someone else's ownership automatically. This is an urban myth along with "common law wife" (a particular bugbear of mine - you are either married or in a civil partnership or you are not. Common law spouses do not exist, though they did at one time).

You should alert the society where you got the passport from (though the passport as someone said is not proof of ownership) and they should have a record of it and be able to produce evidence of this or a duplicate in the circumstances. Beware the loaner getting a duplicate from another society, as can happen, but then it will be dated after the start of the dispute - or should be.

You would be committing a trespass if you went on the yard uninvited, so alert the yard owner to what is happening and ask permission to go onto the yard and remove your belongings including the horse. Do not touch or take anything belonging to the loaners. If the yard owner sees anything happening or movements, then she must tell you immediately. Alert other yards if they are likely to be moving the horse. The police are unlikely to want to get involved unless there is likely to be a breach of the peace, but one of these new Community Support people might be spared to go along with you if you get permission to remove the stuff and horse. It is always a moot point as to whether you write to the loaners and state when you will be coming for the horse - if you have the yard owners permission to enter the yard, you may not need to bother. You have already served written notice as per the "contract".

You can get an order from the court for "delivery up" but this would be a last resort. Once you have the horse back, if the loaners want to allege theft, they'll have to go through the police and the CPS will have to take a decision whether to prosecute or not. Doubt they would.

Try not to get involved in long arguments over the phone, texts etc. They will only be misrepresented. Keep copies of everything and timed notes of anything that is said/phone calls etc.

Always a difficult situation tactically/in reality and even the tightest loan agreements are useless if someone does a moonlight with your horse and can't be found - they will of course be good evidence if the horse/loaner is traced.

Hope this helps. Got to go and do my own horses now.
 
P.S. Forgot to say - could amount to theft once horse no longer legally in their possession, usually after end of notice period. At the moment they could argue horse still legally in their possession until end of notice period and they were always intending to give it back. Sorry!
 
I haven't read the entire post however it appears that you have the bill of sale thus proof of ownership & a document that states they have the horse on loan.

They have the passport & vaccination card which actually does not prove ownership. You will probably see your name is on it anyway.

You are rightly concerned that they will attempt to seize your horse. I would advise you to telephone the police & inform them of the situation. They will inturn tell you that at the present time it is a civil problem & go & see a solicitor. Then you need to tell them that you have arranged transport & intend to go to the yard to retrieve your property i.e. the horse & your tack. Tell them you would like an officer present to ensure that there is no breach of the peace then they may well attend. Officers have attended similar incidents in the past when baliffs have had problems.

I would also be tempted to take croppers to remove any padlock that is securing your tack but I would take a replacement padlock & keys to resecure the door should you need to crop it.

Oh yes...don't go there on your own, pick several level headed people to go with you & remain calm throughout, no raised voices, be business like.

Good Luck
 
I would turn up at the yard with H'box and company (including passport), start loading the pony/horse. If things get ugly someone will call the police.
At that point you can produce your passport and wait for the outcome!t
If you have a copy of all your paperwork sent/texts etc it must make your claims stronger.
 
Er... wouldn't be too sure on the bolt-croppers! Going equipped, breaking and entering, criminal damage.....!
 
Oopsie! just read the post and realised you don't have the passport, sorry!
All the same I would turn up with lorry and your loan paper and get your horse back.
 
[ QUOTE ]
Did you keep the horse at the same livery yard?
confused.gif
Does the YO know that this horse is on loan?.
confused.gif
When does the YO come back?
confused.gif
Have you got the piece of paper or whatever it was that they signed?
confused.gif
If you have what does it state?
confused.gif
Without all this sort of info its hard to give an honest opinion as to what you can or can't do. How long have they had your horse on loan to these people?
confused.gif
Doesn't the law infuriate you. Grrrrr

[/ QUOTE ]

Thanks ssooooo much for everyone's replies and for understanding.

YO is back Monday. I have the paper that we both signed - it says loan agreement, has horses details and both our names and address and signitures and the date. They've had her for 3 years.

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Just to add the place where my stuff is locked away isn't a padlock its a big locker and has a locker key so bolt cutters wouldn't help.
 
Passport is in my name but I was under the impression it needed to stay with whoever was looking after the horse and when they moved yards I gave it to them.
 
Going through something similar
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With the exception that my loaner is now refusing to speak with me at all and has moved the damn horse :*(

I wish you the best of luck with it. I know for sure i will never ever ever loan a horse again which is quite sad when you consider the number of genuine loaners out there :*(
 
Hi
I had a similar situation with a horse that went out 'on loan with view to buy' twelve months later the horse was still not paid for dispite offers of a pay as you go type arrangement (it was for a kid so I was reluctant to take her back) I turned up with a hired lorry that we parked on the road side and simply collected her there and then. I was called every name under the sun but at the end of the day they were given plenty of opportunities to buy the horse and chose to avoid me. I am certain that had I arranged to pick her up she would have disapeared. I will never let a horse out on a trial again.
I would suggest that as soon as the yard owner returns you collect your horse when the loaners aren't there, even if you have to pay a haulage company an emergancy premium (most are quite resonable anyway) the loaners will be trying it on and are unlikley to persue the matter once the horse has been taken.
Call the passport authority and tell them the situation in case she tries or already has re-registerd her. If she has then take the horse anyway - it is yours - and report the passport stolen.
 
Oh blimey Tierra, you do have my sympathies. I take it you don't like close enough to camp outside their house and follow them to find out where the horse is?
 
Nope. They've sold their house (which had stables and fields) and moved themselves and the horses elsewhere, although im told from rumour that they havent gone far.

Ive still got her passport but thats apparently no legal proof of ownership. She had no other papers (i had her from being 4 years old) and our original purchase receipt has been lost over the yeards (shes like 19 now).

I tried to contact them before they moved house (and i know they received the letter) but i never got a reply. Managed to get hold of her by phone once but she immediatly hung up and now wont answer my calls (and since its an international number that shows up for her, its pretty easy to avoid
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)

My OH has been investigating the legal side of things but im not sure we're going to have much success
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As i said, I will never loan a horse out again. She was with me for most of her life and as we've just bought our own yard, i wanted her to come home and live out the rest of her years with me; as i promised her she would. As it stands, i dont even know if shes alive. It certainly would explain why the loaner wont speak to me i guess :*(
 
[ QUOTE ]
Nope. They've sold their house (which had stables and fields) and moved themselves and the horses elsewhere, although im told from rumour that they havent gone far.

Ive still got her passport but thats apparently no legal proof of ownership. She had no other papers (i had her from being 4 years old) and our original purchase receipt has been lost over the yeards (shes like 19 now).

I tried to contact them before they moved house (and i know they received the letter) but i never got a reply. Managed to get hold of her by phone once but she immediatly hung up and now wont answer my calls (and since its an international number that shows up for her, its pretty easy to avoid
frown.gif
)

My OH has been investigating the legal side of things but im not sure we're going to have much success
frown.gif


As i said, I will never loan a horse out again. She was with me for most of her life and as we've just bought our own yard, i wanted her to come home and live out the rest of her years with me; as i promised her she would. As it stands, i dont even know if shes alive. It certainly would explain why the loaner wont speak to me i guess :*(

[/ QUOTE ]

God that's terrible. She's in a different country then? Can't you get an investigator or local police involved?
 
For anyone thinking of loaning or who has a horse out on loan I had tto inform my insurance company (Petplan) that I had loaned my horse. They advised me that i must keep the passport and send them a copy of my loan agreement which I did. So if there is ever a problem I can contact them for help.
 
tye bo, where abouts are you??? i cant drive it but have a trailer and 4x4 that can be used if you want to go and get the horse. id go with the turn up no warning, the moment trouble starts, call the police,
 
Yea shes in the UK and we moved to Denmark last year. I didnt want to bring her with us initially as my main horse was going onto a competition yard with little turnout. Due to an accident she had several years ago, she has a mechanical lameness and was retired... so keeping her in a lot just wasnt fair.

I basically passed it all over to my OH as its really upset me. In the last letter that she definitly received i begged her to just let me know that the horse was ok.

A friend in the Uk is trying to track her through the local horsey grapevine for me and if she gets an address, my mum is going to go and have a nosey to try and spot her in the fields.

Where i stand legally though, im unsure :/ Its a complete nightmare situation and atm, id just be happy to know whether shes still alive or not :/
 
Applechaff - I'm with petplan which is why I got a loan agreement. They didn't tell me to keep the passport but I wonder if it's worth me ringing them for advice?

jhoward - thats very kind thank you I have pm'd you.

Tierra - that's horrible I'm so sorry for you. Have you posted on here what area/details etc? Maybe someone would recognise them or the horse?
 
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