When should I give up on our spavins & PTS?

catembi

catembi

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Very sad post. Adrian has spavins in both hocks, worse on the right, described as 'narrowing of the TI joint'. He was treated in Oct/Nov with injections into the joints & a course of adequan & I'm supposed to be working him.

So far, there has been zero improvement. He has never been particularly lame as it's both hocks, & the vet says he's now sound, but... he's kicking & biting to tack up & he really doesn't want to work. He'll trundle about in walk but the second I put any pressure on him, e.g. nudge with the leg, touch of the stick, he'll kick out, buck or whip his head around & snap his teeth.

He won't trot on the normal aids...he will grind to a halt. He also shakes his head in an angry manner & does all his work with his ears in a 'cross' position. Sometimes he stops & paws the ground.

He *will* trot, but the only way to make him do it is to wave the reins & 'sssshhhhh' at him cos all other methods result in a halt. The most canter I can get out of him is a strike-off & maybe one more stride.

The whole time he's working, he won't take a steady contact. He wants to go overbent & behind the bridle or poke his nose & lean on my hands.

He lives out & has started madly wood chewing which he hasn't really done before, suggesting to me that he's quite uncomfy & is trying to do something to distract himself.

I did manage to hack him out last w'end & he was slightly more forward going out of the school, but he was kicking out a lot, bucking, bunny hopping & napping & he's never napped before. We did quite a lot of canter work, and he felt as if he was holding himself stiffly & he would only canter with his head & neck in left flexion.

He's currently on MoveFreePlus and StrongBone from Global Herbs. I've got 5kg & I think by the time they've run out, I need to have decided what I'm doing. Am I being premature? Is this the darkest before dawn stage?
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He's only 7.
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i would disuss your concerns with your vet and get thn to give him a good check up. i would also start by hacking him out quietly rather than in the school as having a horse with bone spavin i also find it difficult to get him to settle in the school. In my experience horses with bone spavin tend to struggle in alot of areana surfaces.

just another thought would be to get his back and teeth checked and also get the vet to check him to see if he has any gastric ulcer as they cause the horse a lot of pain and discomfort so the horse may not nessicary be in pain due to his spavin good luck and please keep mme posted on how he is getting on.

i also have to piont out that no one knows your horse like you so go with your gut instinct
 
My horse had successful spavin op and his joint fused .Talk to your vet first or maybe turn away for year to allow them to fuse naturally.If you need any more info on op please pm .manage his pain with pain relief if vet thinks hes uncomfortable.
Schooling is far to hard for him lots of walking out in hacks is the best way forward.Your vet should have told you this
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Can't he take bute? I had a horse with spavin who was two years working sound on bute and has now fused and is sound without, including flexion tests. Far too early to put a 7 year old down.

Echo the concern about your vet's help.
 
Thank you for the replies.

My vet said that he needs to be hacked hard or hunted...and recommended that I sent him to a lady up the road...who also happens to be her trainer... Errrrr, yeah, I really want my showjumper to have a winter of being a hireling with me paying for full livery (he lives at home) while the vet gets some free lessons out of it...

I'm afraid I've totally lost faith in that vet after that conversation. Maybe I need to get the practice owner out... he's very experienced, older, pragmatic & was brilliant when I was losing Catembi.

V hard for me to hack cos I work in the City, so it's always dark. Also altho the road going past our house is only a road between a village & a hamlet, people do seem to think that it's a racetrack, so I only dare venture out if o/h comes on his bike. I know, feeble, but I really don't feel safe out there.

He *could* be turned away for a year cos the mortgage stays the same no matter how many I've got, so it would only be shoes, food etc. But then I'd really want something else to ride. My other horse is 37 & can't do much.

If I'm not riding for a year, it brings up a whole load of other q's like what to do with the lorry. Sell it? Won't do it much good standing there for a year, but then a month ago we had to do an emergency run to Rossdales cos Adrian decided to ring the changes by having a colic...

The vet at Global Herbs said not to make him canter if he doesn't want to, & now he doesn't want to trot, perhaps I should stop that too.

The thing that's really confusing me is that the vet who said to hunt him said that we're 'managing' the joints rather than aiming at fusion...apparently fusion only applied to hunters in the 'olden days' & we don't do that any more...?? But I don't get how he's going to go sound if the joints don't fuse...??

Has anyone got a horse with fused spavins that is jumping at a reasonable level, i.e. N/C, 1 m 15, Fox... or does this never happen?
 
I would say from your last post, that possibly his behaviour being ridden could be due to the colic rather than his spavins?

My chap developed spavins in both hinds at 10 it took two years to get him back jumping and he went on till he was 18 competing (Grade A tracks),before dying of a heart attack at 20.

Could you not bute him up, and see how he is to ride then, if still ratty being ridden, leg on side, upset with saddle then maybe get the vet back for further investigations back teeth etc.

I have one now that had colic a week ago and although recovered he is still not back to himself, it was also recommended by the vet to get his back checked asap, as stomach cramps and holding themselves can cause muscle to ache after a colic attack.
 
After moving vets this week and getting fresh eyes looking at my horse , it was the best thing I ever did. Maybe a move of practise of your not happy?

I dont think PTS yet, Id be trying allsorts especially getting a second opinion from a completely different vet
 
As above, speak to your vet about the next move. Even if you can't get him sound enough for what you want to do, that doesn't mean he couldn't do a less strenuous job for someone else. I've seen some schoolmasters with spavins you could see from a mile away and, managed carefully, they were able to keep on living useful lives.

If you're really at the "fish or cut bait" stage, I'd look at two options. Unfortunately they're in conflict so you'd have to weigh them up in conversation with your vet.

Have you done a bute trial? Quite a heavy duty one? It's generally pretty useful for spavins and would give you some clue if that's the root of the matter. Of course, the complication is that it will work on any inflammatory process so it's not definitive. Does he react to flexion tests? You could try the trial with regular flexions. Again, not definitive but closer.

The catch is, of course, that if it is ulcers (which would be a likely place to look if you didn't know about the spavins - horse can have two things wrong at once) then the bute will make it worse. In which case you could try ulcers first then, if that seems clear, a bute trial.

I don't know if your vet would go for it but another possibility would be to block the hocks out, ride him, and see if you see an improvement. Again, a bit tricky as it can take a few rides for a horse to stop expecting to hurt but it should still produce a recognisable improvement. I don't know if it's even possible for hocks but I had a horse with a severe neck injury blocked out with lidocaine, short term, so he could start to do his physio without losing his mind. Worked a treat - he had one round, started on his rehab, then never needed another.

Is there the option of turning him out? It is one of those things that can come right with time so it's not like you're just avoiding the issue. Again, might help, might not, but if you're going to be done anyway, it can't hurt.
 
Thank you everyone...

Please don't get the impression that I WANT to get him PTS... I don't, but with hindsight I do think I carried on too long with Catembi. He had protein losing enteropathy (bowel disease) & the dreadful thing about it is that the horse gets better & worse in about a 3 or 4 day cycle, so I just about decided on PTS & then he'd suddenly perk up, & I'd just about be satisfied that he was going to recover when he'd have a relapse.

I suppose I'm getting frustrated cos we've been in limbo for months. I've got no idea whether this is as good as it gets, whether he'll get better, whether to buy another one...

Maybe the best thing to do is to get the old vet out & DECIDE on a course of action. Spavin op, turn away for a year, work on bute for a year... Then at least I'll know what we're doing. If it wasn't for that old vet, I'd def have changed practices cos the others treat me in quite a high handed way. I've never even seen his x rays & it's absolutely impossible to get a straight answer out of them.
 
Has that vet checked for anything else pain wise???

My mare was treated for spavins...and treated and treated and just kept getting worse - it turned out she also had PSD in both hinds and major sacroiliac disease both sides. Your lads ridden behaviour sounds horribly similar :-(

As an aside...I'd change vets, because the one you've seen sounds like a complete *rse
 
if you were describing his behaviour (without disclosing his spavins) my first reaction would be to get his saddle checked and his back looked at x
 
Saddle has been checked (WOW), properly qualified chiro has been out. He does have a sore back, but vet, chiro & saddler have all said it's cos he's trying to use his legs from the hip rather than flexing the hocks, so he's causing it himself, if you see what I mean... I was thinking at the start of all this that it was maybe kissing spines, but the chiro said that his sore spots are typical spavin sore spots.

I would be surprised if he has ulcers as he's not at all stressy, is out 24/7 with hay & gets fed Alfa-A with all meals, so he doesn't fit the profile, but that will be something to think about.

If only they could talk...
 
Time is a great healer. The weather is awful, and you say you work in the city and can only ride in the dark. Give yourself and your horse a break , take the pressure off yourself and start trying him again late spring or summer. You have nothing to lose :-)
 
Years ago my pony had spavin (before injections came in) He was ok, just a little stiff and I competed as normal, just knew his limits.

However, he (we) had a fall xc in a water fence (he disappeared under) and a week after that he appeared to be totally crippled. i thought his spavin must be the problem. Had brilliant physio out, she did two sessions - he had torn muscles in the fall - but after two session with her he was more supple than he'd been for years. I think they over-compensate when they have spavin and can cause them to be stiff and uncomfortable in other areas so a goo physio session can help and worked wonders for mine.

Before the physio he was on one bute a day but it affected his liver so we took him off it and he was no worse. Once the bones have fused then a horse is generally ok, just a bit more restricted in their hock flexion.

I wouldn't give up on him yet - I would however get hima decent physio session, either by a McTimoney or a sports massage type person not a chiro.
 
I'd immediately get a referral to a specialist centre hun. I wouldn't trust a vet who tried to get me to send my horse to a pal either. Second thing I'd do is find out about the surgery to fuse the joint to stop the pain of bone grinding on bone. When I'd found out about it, I wouldn't do it. If surgery can hasten the fusing of the 2 painful surfaces (when the pain stops) then the horse's body can do it itself, though it will take longer. That's why the vet is saying to work him hard. But working him hard is making him miserable so I'd then do what has been suggested which is just take him on gentle little walking hacks, 10 mins if that's all he's happy with. Once he realises you're trying to understand, he'll settle a bit and not dread being ridden. Then I'd bute him up to the eyeballs while his body mends because a horse in pain is miserable 24/7. Take his pain away and immediately he'll start enjoying life again. But I'd also start him on a maintenance dose of Coligone. His high stress/pain levels have likely given him a low grade belly ache that will be adding to his misery. Coligone is magical stuff - exactly the same as Gaciscon for people. Get the peppermint powder rather than the aniseed liquid - it works out at only pence per day and you'll see an immediate improvement.
 
Sounds like my lad - he has bone spavin and became really miserable when ridden, so i retired him. If you can afford to keep him on grass livery then i'd do that, i think its beneficial for them to keep gently moving and he sounds reasonably sound?
 
Just a note...my vet, another vet, a very highly regarded physio and a bowen practicioner failed to spot the other issues.....
 
Wow, lots of replies...

Thank you to everyone for your suggestions. A lot of ideas to consider. I think our first port of call should be the older vet to discuss some of the options put forward here. I'd be happier if there was some sort of plan.

Poor Adrian. He is such a good boy & it's horrid that I'm not doing a very good job of helping him.
 
Echo Twirly - some other causes are not obvious. Also as Flame suggests check the fronts as well as he may be lame in front - if bilateral and low grade hard to spot at all.

I would want a full lameness workup on all legs and maybe xrays of spine/pelvis so you know exactly what you are dealing with. I would certainly be looking for a specialist vet for this. Good luck.
 
I agree with box of frogs. if your horse is in pain and telling you he is buting him up short term is the kindest thing you can do for him. i would imagine the pain is giving him secondary problems. wood chewing may indicate tummy issues.

I would say you need to take a step back and give your horse time to heal. this type of condition takes more than a few months to right itself and I'm afraid it is a waiting game.

If not being able to ride or compete is grating against you every day then I would suggest turning your horse away and either borrowing or buying another one whist your horse heals. My 4 year old went lame in both front legs a year a go. i was beyond devestated and like you wanted to do everything I could to help but at the same time found the whole situation incredibly frustrating.
the out look on my mare is guarded (colateral ligament damage), and it is unknown whether she will ever come sound.
Like you I have my own land so the only extra cost of having another horse was feeding and shoeing. Foe my own sanity i decided to buy another youngster who I am currently backing. my lame mare is turned away. I still find it hard looking at her in the field but my focus on my nre mare allows my lame horse to heal in her own time without the added pressure of me willing her to get better as quiclly as possible.
Unfortunately they heal when they are good and ready.

I would definately say give your horse a lot more time and this will all become a horrible distant memory. But do seriously think about decent pain relief for him and stress relief for you (in the form of riding another horse).

Good luck with it. i know how hard it is when things don't go the way you planned
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as some of the others have said is there another cause of pain as this is not a happy horse. PSD could be likley just been dealing with one horse with very simmilar symptoms to what you have said he was sound to trot up in stright and lunge hard and soft yet when you rode him (had to do this for the vet to see) was as you have discribed kicking out at leg bucking very unwilling to go forwards napping biting as tacking up. had always been quite easy beofre this. did throw ood step in front ocasionaly but that was it. phyiso suggested PSD vet agreed could be possiable. just had full workup and show susepenory ligs fine but had quite advanced spavin in both hocks (plus few other abnormalities) and negative sole planes in fornt. so he was trying to compensate for all these different problmes and no longer could resulting in everything hurting every leg and back. in different shoes now and intesive mediacation for hocks looking better already fingers crossed. Really sounds as yours has something else going on too if uncomftable in every leg will look sound get vet to see being ridden? at theend of the day you know your horse and you know something is not right so try and find out what it is but really not sounding like just spavin
 
My mare is rising 10 and has bone spavin in her right hock and is unlevel behind. I keep her out 24/7 and hunt her every week. After hunting she has a couple of sachets of Danilon same as bute but covered with sugar so they take it in the feed and also does not cause the gastro problems that bute can, and this takes away pain or stiffness. You must keep a horse with spavins/arithis moving, same as people otherwise they stiffen up completely.
 
I agree that you need to keep an arthritic horse ticking over but I would wary of a vet who advised you to send a horse with his condition hunting. I would definetely get a second opinion. I'd also get a physio out regularly.

My mare was on box rest for months during treatment for PSD and she was tight all over afterwards. You can see the relief in their faces when they get a good physio work over.

I had her done every month after she was allowed turnout.
 
oh hun I feel for you!! I am wondering if there is something else going on here. If you had just posted what he was doing now without the spavin I would have said it sounds so like EPSM almost identical to my old lad just a thought as he has not been working for a while he is more likely to develope it

www.ruralheritage.com have a look see what you think. All you would have to do to test is feed him lots of oil certainly wouldn't hurt to try
 
I think I'd look at changing vets TBH. Mine has spavins in both hocks and I was told to bring him back into work very slowly, with lots of time to build back up because the steroid injections can actually be quite painful for a while afterwards. He also recommended a course of osteopathy and then physio to deal with all of the sore muscles he had from compensating for the spavins. I did about 6 weeks of just hacking, starting off with 20 mins in walk and building up to about 2 hours in walk and trot. Mine has ringbone in front as well and when I said I wanted to hunt him reasonably hard he said the spavin would be unlikely to cause a problem but the ringbone would (he was unfortunately proved right and horse now retired from hunting
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). Either way, he said that the spavins themselves don't usually cause much trouble once fused / treated.

PM Mooch on here because her mare has spavins in her hocks and she's had real trouble with them. I'm pretty sure she's still being rested and she was diagnosed before mine (mine was diagnosed in June last year and was back in work 2 weeks after treatment)... I think her vet is waiting for them to fuse.

Has he had any osteo or physio treatment since? Mine only has mild spavins but was incredibly sore all across his SI, lumbar and withers from compensating so it's worth having a course of physio / osteo (don't rate chiro, sorry!) to deal with any potential sore muscles. Could there be something else going on as well as the spavins though?

Mine is back working and up until the Xmas lay off, was doing really well though we're never going to be jumping 1m15 tracks, just play around up to 3ft so probably not much help to you!
 
'Before the physio he was on one bute a day but it affected his liver so we took him off it '

Has he had recent bloods done to check the liver has repaired?

Is the insurance still covering him. I would push for a full referral to Rossdales and get a full body workup including scoping for ulcers. The bute may have caused ulcers as well as liver damage.
 
Thank you for all the replies. There seem to be an overwhelming number of things that could also be wrong with him!

My trainer is coming out at lunchtime to check that it isn't all in my head (!) & then I think we'll have a chat with the practice owner & then move on from there.

O/h has said that I can have a youngster, so if A needs chucking in the field, I can put my bl**dy patchwork away (started a quilt to keep me busy while not competing) & go out & do something.

It's sooooo frustrating cos he really does seem 'wrong' but he can't tell me why. He's my fave ever horse even above Catembi...it's more like having a pet person than a horse as he v rarely ever does stupid horse things, & he's only scared the living daylights out of me a handful of times in nearly 3 years, whereas Cat could do it daily!
 
My horse was diagnosed in Nov 2008 with bone spavin. It affected all three bones in the hock joint and it was classed as mild. He was given three tildren infusions over a twelve month period, adequan and intra articular injections of HA and steroids. My vet came out about a month ago as he was tail swishing on the right rein (his worse affected hock) and rushing and generally unhappy. The vet declared that his treatment has not worked and recommended a bute trial of a fortnight which I had to cut short due to the bad weather and not being able to ride. I gave him two bute saturday evening and two sunday morning and took him to the riding club and jumped a lovely steady clear round where as normally he'd be pulling like a train and rushing like a mad thing so the bute obviously worked well. I also did a few small circles on his bad rein and he was fine. So to cut a long story short, this is now where I am at, faced with giving my horse bute everytime I want to compete or a bute substitute when competing under rules. If this is what it takes to be able to continue to compete my boy then I will have to do this but I am not really happy about drugging him up for my own pleasure. I suppose in a way I am lucky as at the moment he doesn't need bute on a day to day basis, ie. hacking out, jumping a small xc course or riding round the grounds, but if I want to dressage school, or compete dressage (in particular I was thinking about joining BD before the last vets visit) then I will have to bute him up as the circles and constant repetition of movements causes him discomfort. The difference from riding him on the saturday without pain relief to riding him on the sunday was very evident.

The vet said that the worse thing you can do with arthritis is to stable the horse and allow no turnout, or restrict turnout and ridden work. The arthritic horse needs constant movement both free and ridden in order to keep him supple and prevent him stiffening up.
 
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