when to call it a day

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tikino

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right here goes. i am firstly an experiance horsewomen and qualified A.I. ok i bought jerry in september and we was looking quite poor and nervous he is rising 4 years old un broken. i have broken many horses in in the past but am at my wits end with him. he is lungeing in full tack with sddle or roller. we have had stirrups banging against his side with no problems.

the problem is every time i even try to lean over his back he just looses the plot rears up or bronkals and goes crazy. i made a mascot but he wrecked it. i am realy running out of ideas of what to do now other than sell him. the problem being i don't want him to be passed from pillar to post or hurting anyone else.

i just don't know what to do but can't affoard to get hurt as i am in my final year of my nursing.

i have ordered him a calmer supplement to try and help him.

what do i do as he is a lovely wee guy
 
i would send him to someone...my youngster was horrid to break- he would lunge quietly with side reins, you could lean over him and even sit on him and be lead around but as soon as the leader moved away he bucked like mental to get you off...i sent him away for 10 days to someone who didn't come off and he came back much better...for a while you still had to have someone to hold him and ocassionally he would still get me off but he was much better and now is fine so long as you are very quiet when getting on...i have figured that mine will always be a bit tense when i get on but he soon relaxes...
 
Just because you cant get on him doesnt mean someone else wont manage - i think its bloomin extreme to consider pts because you cant break it in. I see that your an A.I but not everyone can click with every horse - i bought my dog to use for breeding but if he fires blanks i wouldnt have him killed.
It does astound me the idea of putting a healthy young horse down because he hasnt yet accepted you getting on his back yet - send him to a professional trainer/breaker and see how they get on.
 
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Just because you cant get on him doesnt mean someone else wont manage - i think its bloomin extreme to consider pts because you cant break it in. I see that your an A.I but not everyone can click with every horse - i bought my dog to use for breeding but if he fires blanks i wouldnt have him killed.
It does astound me the idea of putting a healthy young horse down because he hasnt yet accepted you getting on his back yet - send him to a professional trainer/breaker and see how they get on.

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Where was PTS mentioned?
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Did I miss that bit??????

OP try the calmer and see how it goes? Just out of interest which calmer have you got and what is his breeding?
 
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Just because you cant get on him doesnt mean someone else wont manage - i think its bloomin extreme to consider pts because you cant break it in. I see that your an A.I but not everyone can click with every horse - i bought my dog to use for breeding but if he fires blanks i wouldnt have him killed.
It does astound me the idea of putting a healthy young horse down because he hasnt yet accepted you getting on his back yet - send him to a professional trainer/breaker and see how they get on.

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i don't think PTS was mentioned?!?

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I know it gets expensive but I would get him re-checked. It would not be the first time a professional has missed something that is causing pain. I have seen it so many times over the years. If your horse is behaving in every other way then it will be a physical problem. Babies change very quickly & a saddle that fitted one week can be pinching the next. He also may have a sight problem which is more apparent with a rider or dummy on his back. Who knows we cant ask them, but more often then not there is an issue with discomfort/pain rather then them just being ackward or naughty.
 
my friend has simular prob and she had also backed many before herself.

She did send him away to a brilliant guy. I went and watched him and one thing that he said which I thought could be very useful to know is before he gets on he uses a 'lead horse' basicley he rides another horse a leads the other horse from it (tacked up) but while he is up there strokes horse etc so he gets use to you being eye line as if you were ridding him.

Hope that makes sense and maybe of some help!
 
I sorry my'bad!!! i thought you meant pts and it made me feel really wound up - i keep seeing these on here and i was thinking oh my god - anyway should have clarified that!
 
He's not cold backed is he?? Do you just girth him up normally?
My horse is 15 yrs old, been there, done it and got the t-shirt however he is cold backed. If I tack him up and put the saddle on last and girth him up, even though he walks off camly, he will explode when you try and get on.
I have solved this by putting the saddle on with a loose-ish girth, put the boots on and girth up one hole, put the bridle on, girth up another hole, walk round the yard, girth up, one more walk round then get on with some one holding the stirrup and giving him a polo. Its sounds a faff and extreme but it really makes a huge difference.
I have no probs getting on him since I started this.However, to show it works, I let my friend have a lesson on him last week.She was late and rushed to tack him up, he tried to bronc her off when she got on.
He also either rushes forwards or backwards.
 
It sounds like his problem is not understanding why you are above him. He is used to you being on the ground below him so I think first off you need to get him accustomed to having you above his line of sight. Using another horse can help with this and if you have another horse which can be ridden then I would lead him alongside until he gets used to you being up top so to speak.
 
Also saying to recheck for back problems. A friend had a young mare who didn't want anyone to get on her and it was found that she had badly damaged withers.
 
If its not a cold back issue then the only other 2 horses I have known like this have been scared before they came to me. One got a 5 bar gate stuck to it as it bucked, it managed to get it caught in the saddle and pulled it off the hinges( don't ask- muppets!!) and the other got loose on the gallops whilst being long reined and ran around for other an hour with the long reins attached. He was always a bit difficult, we sent him to Micheal Peace in the end but it cost a fortune and he was never right.
 
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I know it gets expensive but I would get him re-checked. It would not be the first time a professional has missed something that is causing pain. I have seen it so many times over the years. If your horse is behaving in every other way then it will be a physical problem. Babies change very quickly & a saddle that fitted one week can be pinching the next. He also may have a sight problem which is more apparent with a rider or dummy on his back. Who knows we cant ask them, but more often then not there is an issue with discomfort/pain rather then them just being ackward or naughty.

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ditto, it can't help to have a second opinion, because if you send him away to a pro, they can only go on what info you provide them with and they will probably ask you the same thing, check then double check, no point spending money on an expert if there is a phyical problem, no amount of horse whispering...so to speak, will fix that.

If you beleive he's worth the struggle, don't give up.
 
Presuming all health checks are fine, have you thought of tying a bag of spuds, equal weights, either side and just let him get on with trying to get rid of them on the lunge? You need hessian type sacks as they're more supple and easy to skewer rope through to tie them on and make sure they can't slip but the more they bounce against him the better. You don't want them too heavy else you can't lift them up there but 10 - 15 kg either side should be enough, you want him to know they're there. Start off with them by the withers then once he's settled with that, use the dees behind the saddle so he gets used to them rubbibng against his ribcage just like legs will do eventually; also try them at different heights, top first so quite tight to his topline, then halfway down then so bottom of spud bag is level with the bottom of his girth; top up with heavier weights if necessary. That's worked a treat with several I've done in the past which have been similar. It goes without saying that you stand him at the mounting block daily so he gets used to you standing above him - and do it both sides too in preparation for plaiting! Make a guy too that you can tie on as well.
 
I have a very nervous nutter of a young horse to break years ago, and did it by standing on a stool to groom him in his stable so I stood a lot higher than him like you would if you were riding him. I did it gradually by going up the step stool one at a time while brushing him, giving him titbits. Eventually I was able to lean accross him with much praise, titbits, till he was happy. He always had a hay net tied by the door and used to stand with his head out eating and watching what was happening in the yard. Eventually one day after doing this for a couple of weeks, I was able to put my leg over and sit on him. I then used to guide him round inside the stable with the headcollar rope. Looking back, I know it could have been dangerous, but because it was his stable and it was combined with eating he always stayed relaxed and not at all worried.

One day he was so used to me doing this that I leant down and undid the stable door, pushed it open and let him walk out into the yard with me on him. He was a horse that never ever bronced on concrete, only on grass, even though he would have a broncing fit in a paddock months after I had broken him in. The only way I broke that habit was to tie his head up with a rope going from the bit rings up his cheeks through the top rings on the headcollar which was under his bridle and tied to the top of the saddle like grass reins. Once he found he could not get his head down below where it should be when ridden he got out the habit and never bronced me off again. It took about six months of riding and hacking out with the rope on to break the habit. (There never was anything wrong with his back, it was all in his mind.)

Also by sitting on him bareback, it eliminated thinking it may have been the saddle. He was petrified of the saddle so had to spend hours wearing it in the stable before I started sitting on him with it on. He was so sensitive that after being ridden for about 6 months regularly, when I changed numnahs from furry ones to a cool cotton summer one, he went mad with fear when he felt it under the saddle, so again had to get him used to that. He was a fine skinned sensistive sort, not just in his mind, so needed a lot of time and patience.
 
You are describing exactly the situation that I had with one of mine. It turned out that he was going blind and therefore panicked at anyone up and behind him as he lost his peripheral vision. It's extremely rare, but it may be worth checking his eyesight, though I know it sounds very odd to say that!

You can test his eyesight yourself by poking a finger sharply towards his eye (but not touching it or his face or eyelashes). He should blink, even if you do it from "behind" the eye.
 
Would like to add, I would be extremely carefull about trying to use a dummy/bag or whatever on his back. If he has a sensitive nature, you may scare him totally witless and make him even worse. If I had done this I dont think you would have ever got near to mine again! He was very much a person horse and could not understand anything inanimate. It was the same when he had to wear a rug for the first time. He had to wear it every night just in the stable before going out into the field in it. He would have bolted straight through a fence otherwise. Some horses take an awfull lot of getting used to things.
 
Tough one. Sounds like a good idea to work on him seeing someone above him, like other people have suggested.

This may not be of any help, but I have leant over mine using a roller or vaulting girth rather than a saddle in the past - then they get used to having a girth on but they can feel you rather than the saddle when you lean on them.

If your budget does not allow for sending him away, would it be an alternative to have a trainer come to you? Do you know anyone good in the area who could come out for a few sessions and give you a hand?

Best of luck and do post an update to let us know how you are getting on...
 
Sounds very tricky. What does he do when you step up on to the mounting block to get on/lean over (I presume you're standing on something!). Does he get uptight when you're up there, or is it just when you lean over.

Agree with what a few others have said - get up on something beside him, that makes you higher than him. Initially do it without a saddle and just groom and stroke his back - maybe have a few treats and make him bend round to you now and again to receive one of these. As he gets more confident in you doing this, start grooming the side furthest away from you by leaning over him (still stood on the block/steps). Keep on with the treats (not too many) but make him bend to his other side and take one from you as you lean over. Once he's comfortable with this, introduce the roller and do the same thing. Then work up to the saddle - but only ever move up when you're sure he's confident.

Once he's allowing you to do this, spend a few weeks just leaning over, phasing out the treats so he doesn't get into the habit of 'nipping' your toes when you do eventually get on!!

Once he's happy with you leaning over him, start gradually increasing the weight you are putting on his back. Once he's happy with this and settled, rather than swing your leg over, swing your right arm over his back end, in the same arc your leg would go were you mounting. Do this slowly at first, get him used to the sensation of having something outside his normal range of vision swinging over his back (by using your arm, you're avoiding putting yourself in harm's way).

It all depends on what his reaction is throughout all this as to how long it will take. If it were me, I'd factor in at least 6 months - if he accepts it quicker, bonus, but otherwise by setting that amount of time aside you won't be tempted to rush it - that said, if he's making progress and it takes longer than this, then so be it!

Not worth upsetting him or injuring yourself so just take all the time you need - some of them take much longer than others to learn new things but as I'm sure you know, if you can build a bond of trust right at the start the rest will come.

Best of luck, keep us updated!!!

and look at it this way - after spending all that time and effort on him you'll feel so rewarded when it starts to come together (and it will!!).
 
is it just when you lean over him or is it when you are above him or in a different position that he isnt used to you being in?

I used to show a 2 year old 16.2 and because he was so tall I had no option but to use steps to plait him, he used to go nuts at first because he couldnt understand why I was "up there", but soon got used to it, and sometimes I would just rest on his back whilst I was talking to friends he was not to bad when the time came to actually getting on, it was just the getting him to move was the problem.
 
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