When to call it a day?

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KK200

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I dont seem to have much luck with horses, and my run of bad luck is continuing!

I cant afford to buy a horse (keeping it is the bigger issue really) so have been sharing for about 2 years, currently on 3rd share horse. 1st horse was sold after 6 months of me sharing when we were finally starting to build a bond and get somewhere. 2nd horse went badly lame after about 9 or 10 months and has now retired for a quieter life. 3rd (current) horse is a WBxTB mare by a GP stallion, she was at a professional yard for a while and then came back to yard she was born at (her owner runs the yard but doesnt have time to ride her). She has lovely huge paces but the problem is she is a 7 year old mare with way too much attitude, if I ask her to do anything she doesnt want to do cue lots of bucking, going sideways and generally being a pain.

I've never shared a young horse before and never a WB either, I can easily sit to her bucks and havent come off (yet!) either. With my previous share horses they were quirky at times but never to the extent that current mare challenges me. Been sharing her since the end of August so coming up for 5 months now.

I understand with a mare I'm going to get more quirks and that's fine, again with a WB I know they are more challenging than a ISH type that I have ridden in the past. However what I wasnt prepared for was the bad attitude, she is an angel in the stable and weirdly she is lovely to hack out but put her in the school (or ask her to trot on a hack) and we have a devil horse on our hands.

I had hoped that by March/April we might be out doing a little competition (only prelim) here and there, but getting on last night was like rewinding 5 months and going back to the start all over again. I tend to dread schooling her and last night only confirmed that perhaps I have bitten off more than I can chew with this one, I always hear top riders saying to be a successful dressage horse the horse needs the right attitude, so I'm wondering if this one has the paces and movement but just not the attitude?

Pain has been ruled out, we've had literally everything under the sun done in the last 5 months - new saddle, new bit, physio, teeth done, vet out....she had a bit of a stiff neck at one point which the physio sorted but aside from that she is just an arse.

So what I want to know is how long should I stick it out? When do you know its time to call it a day? She has so much potential it really is a shame, and for anyone that's ever tried to find a part loan/share you must appreciate that finding a horse with her breeding up for share is like finding unicorn poo. Giving up is not something I'm keen on, I do like a challenge but I'm starting to get a bit fed up with purely hacking through fear of what is going to happen in the school. My instructor agrees that she has a lot of potential and her paces are fantastic, and instructor is wonderfully positive in that she can come good but every time we make an improvement its like one step forward and 5 steps back. Instructor has admitted though she's not seen such a challenging horse for a long time and wouldnt dream of getting on her, which says a lot to me when instructor is a professional dressage rider!

Oh and finally previous pro rider never had these problems with her, he did for about 3 weeks but then she calmed down. No idea why she is acting up like this with me still after 5 months. He did (I think) ride her in a way I'm not keen on though, draw reins used a lot plus allowing her to rush on the forehand the entire time, and ridden frequently in a small round pen never stretching out her neck.

Any advice welcome - sorry for the essay!
 
Sounds like you've already made your mind up. Don't carry on if it's not fun and you're dreading riding, there are literally loads of people out there with "normal" horses looking for sharers.
 
I really havent made my mind up - this is the issue. She's a lovely horse on the ground and I enjoy being around her and hacking her out. She has the most amazing floaty paces and her natural trot is a medium trot - all the higher level dressage movements will come easy to her if she could just get her head around the basics. Her owner is lovely, its a great yard with lots of friendly people. Great facilities at the yard, I get to ride her as much as I want (no-one else rides her unless I ask her to be exercised), she's on full livery so I dont have chores to do....there are a lot of good things going for this share.

And in terms of what else is out there - hardly anything! I dont want a 'normal' horse to be honest, I want a competition horse that isnt lame, old or has some other health issue. I dont want a happy hacker, or a cob, or an old eventer looking for a quieter life. I want a horse that is young enough to give me a good few years of dressage, and to be scoring reasonably well at every competition. I've ridden at Novice before and I'd like to go a lot further.

So to find a decent WB dressage horse for share (or even a re-schooled ex racer/TB) really is like finding a needle in a haystack, I've browsed around today out of interest and there wasnt one that was right. People simply dont put their competition horses out on part loan/share, it is so hard to find.

Hence why I dont know whether to stick it out or not. I know its supposed to be fun, I have that in the back of my mind when I'm riding and sitting out another massive buck, I'm thinking to myself I pay good money for this and I'm supposed to enjoy it! But equally finding another horse that moves like she does and could get a reasonable way up the levels in dressage would be nigh on impossible, so I'm really torn.
 
I would find a professional rider who is willing to come and ride her through this ........ maybe for a few weeks, maybe every other day, there will be someone, but you need to find the right person. Your own instructor may know someone as she is not happy to do it herself.
You could send her away for a bit, but I think you need to see how to proceed as she is likely to test you again as soon as you get on board again.
 
MrsD123 said:
I would find a professional rider who is willing to come and ride her through this ........ maybe for a few weeks, maybe every other day, there will be someone, but you need to find the right person. Your own instructor may know someone as she is not happy to do it herself.
You could send her away for a bit, but I think you need to see how to proceed as she is likely to test you again as soon as you get on board again.
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yup.

replied on BD and said the same-you need someone willing to get on board!
 
I would agree, but is this really the sort of thing a part loaner should be organising and funding?

I'm a bit alarmed that your instructor won't get on the horse. That's okay if you're teaching upper level people but at the level you're talking about I really do not think you should be asking people do something you wouldn't. She/he should recommend you a rider in the same school of thought, at least.

As far as if it's 'worth it', only you can really say. I can see what you're saying about a shortage of good competition horses for loan, but that's not really a surprise. There is always going to be a catch, it just depends what you can deal with. I know it's not the primary focus but you have to think about the horse, too. If she needs professional help at this point to be a good citizen then that's what she needs.
 
That's my biggest issue really - money. Cant afford to have someone ride her frequently or send her away to a pro for schooling (lets face it she was with a pro less than 6 months ago at the expense of her owner).

Main reason instructor wont get on her is because she had a bad fall off a naughty youngster who broke her back and she was in a wheelchair for 6 months, instructor has a couple of horses doing really well at the moment and she has qualified for PSG regionals - I dont really blame her for not wanting to ride a lunatic 7 year old mare who couldnt even do a prelim at the moment! If I were riding at her level I wouldnt want to risk my own horses and their development just to get on a nutty mare.

I might ask again when we have our next lesson, last lesson horse was a nightmare and I dont think anyone in their right mind would get on that horse if they had watched it - the bucks were pretty spectacular on that occasion. But if pony chooses to not look like so much of a monster next lesson she might convince trainer to at least get on for a few minutes!
 
I have owed some difficult horses and at times life with them was challenging and while I of course wished they toed the line and became easy I enjoyed working with them.
If you are enjoying the journey with a difficult horse that's one thing but if you are not its another especially if you don't own it and can walk away.
I too think you get someone esle to ride the horse and see what it does
These types of horses can sap you energy and confidence .
 
You say that the previous rider didn't have any problems - but riding round in tiny circles with draw reins on doesn't sound all that problem-free; it sounds more like damage limitiation.

What does your schooling consist of? Can you offer something different for the horse, that she would become interested in and forget trying to challenge you. I'm thinking of maybe schooling with poles or little jumps, anything than trying to do circles and school figures all the time. Now, I am not an expert and haven't ridden a large difficult horse, but some alternative thinking might be required here.
 
If it were me, i'd be reluctant to spend money on proffessionals for what is at the end of the day, someone elses horse.

It also doesn't sound like the professional that did ride her did much for her if all he done was essentially ride in draw reins in a small pen.

I would be looking for another share if it was me, it's supposed to be fun it doesn't sound like it's much of that for you with this mare. Sounds more like you're sticking with it as a 'this horse is better than no horse' option as there's not a lot else around at the moment!

Whatever you decide hope it all works out for you. :)
 
Orangehorse said:
You say that the previous rider didn't have any problems - but riding round in tiny circles with draw reins on doesn't sound all that problem-free; it sounds more like damage limitiation.

What does your schooling consist of? Can you offer something different for the horse, that she would become interested in and forget trying to challenge you. I'm thinking of maybe schooling with poles or little jumps, anything than trying to do circles and school figures all the time. Now, I am not an expert and haven't ridden a large difficult horse, but some alternative thinking might be required here.
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Being such a special creature she doesnt jump, hates it and either runs through them and knocks them down completely or she spooks at them :o

Instructor has us doing poles (4 poles on a circle like a clock) and doing transitions between poles, instructor thinks she has a brain the size of a pea and if she stops thinking about what she's doing on focuses on what I'm doing whilst sat on her back that's when she goes silly, so she has us doing poles to take her focus off me and onto her feet/poles. Does work for a short while, until pea brain decides to think about something again. She has the attention span of a gnat (other instructor commented on this!).

That's why I try and hack every weekend without fail, I dont want her to get bored of schooling so I take her out and blow that little mind of hers every weekend (a noisy cow tipped her over the edge on Saturday, she decided she'd never heard anything so scary!)

When we do school I try and keep it varied as much as possible, some stretchy work, loads of transitions, very few circles (still recovering a little from that stiff neck so circles make it worse), leg yield, serpentines, figures of 8, rein back, starting to teach shoulder in (getting the angle) etc. I dont keep repeating the same stuff over and over again so I dont think its a case of her being bored in the school.
 
TBH sounds like a pro horse to me- needs constant training and work- and someone who will keep on at her.

Do you have anyone on the yard who could help or look for alternative instructor?
 
dianchi said:
TBH sounds like a pro horse to me- needs constant training and work- and someone who will keep on at her.

Do you have anyone on the yard who could help or look for alternative instructor?
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I am wondering if she needs a better rider than I am - while I'm not bad I'm certainly no pro and if she only ever behaved with a pro perhaps she is just more horse than I can handle.

I dont think a new instructor will help, took me forever to find current one as all others I tried had no idea what to do with her! Instructor trains with Michael Eilberg, is very experienced with difficult horses and takes unproduced youngsters who are not easy rides a long way - she is perfect for me and this mare compared to the many others I've tried. Most were literally stumped for ideas and just told me not to bother with my mare. When we have a lesson she does get good results with us, the canter lesson perhaps not but she got us going really well (eventually) in our other lessons.
 
Sorry, I didn't mean to dis your instructor, just to point out that if an experienced professional with the skills to help you with the horse is reluctant to ride it, why is it the right horse for you?

The thing is, the horse needs what it needs and, at the end of the day that is the owner's responsibility, not yours. None of us can comment on your suitability because we don't know you but, tbh, it all sounds a bit of a nightmare. I've ridden many a similar horse but the owners paid ME! If YOU want to ride the horse, have at it (with the caveat that you need to be safe and the horse should be improving) but if you don't, hand it back. That is kind of the point of loaning.
 
TarrSteps said:
Sorry, I didn't mean to dis your instructor, just to point out that if an experienced professional with the skills to help you with the horse is reluctant to ride it, why is it the right horse for you?

The thing is, the horse needs what it needs and, at the end of the day that is the owner's responsibility, not yours. None of us can comment on your suitability because we don't know you but, tbh, it all sounds a bit of a nightmare. I've ridden many a similar horse but the owners paid ME! If YOU want to ride the horse, have at it (with the caveat that you need to be safe and the horse should be improving) but if you don't, hand it back. That is kind of the point of loaning.
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I do agree - I'm paying a fair sum of money each month (could probably keep a native on grass livery in a boggy field for what I'm paying!) so I should have something I enjoy riding. I think the nature of sharing/part loaning can often feel like the owner should be paying the sharer at times, after all they are keeping the horse in regular work, keeping it fit, improving it if they have lessons and if they compete then they are giving it a competition record which increases the horses value! But then on the flip side the sharer couldnt ride that kind of horse in a riding school, plus riding lessons are expensive so sharing works out better value.

I'm emailing the owner now to try and work out a plan of action - I'm going to be honest with her that I'm not enjoying it and I think we need to have one last look at pain issues, then have a strict schedule and still if nothing is found or improves then I might have to call it a day.
 
I am afraid to be blunt every time I see a post like this I say,why are you asking the question as you already know what to do!
 
Because some of us like to hash these things out. :)

(I was going to say there might be a gender based mechanism at work but that would be un PC of me. ;))
 
popsdosh said:
I am afraid to be blunt every time I see a post like this I say,why are you asking the question as you already know what to do!
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Because prior to asking the question I wasnt sure whether I should simply cut my losses and move on, persevere or something else entirely I might not have thought of. Thought that was quite clear from my original post, I wanted advice on when to call it a day.

I have also posted this question on the BD forum and between the two forums it has helped me construct an email to the owner (which I would not have done if it were not for the answers I've received) with areas to investigate pain wise - again if it were not for the answers I received I wouldnt have had the knowledge by myself of what the pain might be. And I got recommendations from the forum users on supplements. And as Tarrsteps said, it is nice to hash out issues we are having with our horses, vent a little, put things into perspective and hear from others that have had problem horses too.

Hope that is a satisfactory reason for posting - didnt realise we had to justify our posts now. On the BD forum I've had 5 pages of lovely helpful responses without a silly or negative comment anywhere. And it was going so well on H&H too until you decided to comment. I like to go by the saying 'if you dont have anything nice to say dont say anything at all', it would be nice if we could all live by that saying.
 
I currently own 2 quirky mares and always seem to be given quirky mares to ride (as I always get on better with them then geldings :o)! And I have found that trying to directly confront them gets you nowhere. I have found that the key to them is to make them think it is their idea, ie make the correct way the easier way or to kind of irritate them into the right way. So say the horse naps, rather than giving a smack or a kick I will tickle them with the stick or reins. They may have small paddies about it but as you are giving them nothing to fight about it they learn to walk on (as soon as this happens I give them loads of pats and praise). It works for me :)
 
not sure if this is relevant but have you looked at what she is being fed? my mare is very spooky, lively and can be badly behaved at times(she is now nearly 23!!!!!) i have to be very careful what she is fed as some things just seem to blow her brain and she is a nightmare. some haylage sends her loopy, calm and condition does the same, half a dozen carrots doe the same...so maybe look at feeding her only hay for a while to see if it helps.....i also think you should find someone to get on and assess her, i know money is short but just a one off may not be too bad....good luck and keep us posted..can we have a pic of her?
 
shortstuff99 said:
I currently own 2 quirky mares and always seem to be given quirky mares to ride (as I always get on better with them then geldings :o)! And I have found that trying to directly confront them gets you nowhere. I have found that the key to them is to make them think it is their idea, ie make the correct way the easier way or to kind of irritate them into the right way. So say the horse naps, rather than giving a smack or a kick I will tickle them with the stick or reins. They may have small paddies about it but as you are giving them nothing to fight about it they learn to walk on (as soon as this happens I give them loads of pats and praise). It works for me :)
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Oh yes arguing with a mare is never the answer! I never kick or smack (I'd be sent into orbit if I gave her a smack!) and kicking just gets bigger bucks so I have to remain calm, bring her back to walk for example if she had a meltdown in trot, then pick up the trot again and carry on like nothing happened. It doesnt work in the sense she still bucks (there are no patterns to her bucking, just as and when she feels like it) but it gets a better response than arguing with her - both of us just come out of that fed up and me with arms stinging like hell!
 
splashgirl45 said:
not sure if this is relevant but have you looked at what she is being fed? my mare is very spooky, lively and can be badly behaved at times(she is now nearly 23!!!!!) i have to be very careful what she is fed as some things just seem to blow her brain and she is a nightmare. some haylage sends her loopy, calm and condition does the same, half a dozen carrots doe the same...so maybe look at feeding her only hay for a while to see if it helps.....i also think you should find someone to get on and assess her, i know money is short but just a one off may not be too bad....good luck and keep us posted..can we have a pic of her?
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She doesnt get much in the way of hard feed and no supplements at the moment - she has a haynet overnight (hay not haylage), token hard feed breakfast when the others are fed to keep her quiet, turned out for 6-7 hours during the day and then a token hard feed dinner again to keep her quiet while the other horses get their dinner.
 
KK200 said:
Because prior to asking the question I wasnt sure whether I should simply cut my losses and move on, persevere or something else entirely I might not have thought of. Thought that was quite clear from my original post, I wanted advice on when to call it a day.
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My advice was if you need to ask the question it is most likely to late!(ie move on) however that comes from years of maybe doing the wrong thing,however shortcut wisdom is the only advantage of getting older!
 
I've no idea how old you are or what level you ride at so some of what I say may not apply so take whats useful and ignore if appropriate.
Like you I only ride other peoples horses and have done so for quite a few years. What I've learnt over this time is not to think of share of a specific horse as a long term thing. Your situation my change, the owners situation may change so you have to enjoy what you are doing for as long as it lasts and accept that it may be a few weeks, months or years. You never know despite what the owners may say at the time so you absolutely MUST get enjoyment from what ever time you have with the horse.
I've ridden some nice horses and lost them all. One because I would not do something the owner wanted me to do which I felt was wrong for the horse. Another because after working and competing it for a year the owner realised it was now very saleable and worth significantly more than when I started and a third because it became very apparent that the owner and I were some way apart on what was the correct training for the horse.
Every owner has a reason to share their horse and you need to find the real reason which is sometimes not the reason you are given.
Payment wise I have never paid a penny in contibution. Whilst I probably would be happy to do so if offered a well schooled horse that was ready to compete these are rarer then rocking horse poo. Mostly the horse will have issue that need to be sorted (i'm talking competiton horses here, not hacking) and what will happen once you manage to sort through the problems is completely unknown no matter what the owner may say at the time. Therefore, I refuse to pay to re-school someones horse and having nothing at the end of the process.
Hope that all makes sense.
My current horse (just started this week with her) I have because she is too much for the owner. Owner and her husband both have other horses so this one is pretty much sole use. All seems very promising, I can compete in any discipline I want to and have free rein on how I train horse. Now on paper this looks like a good long term setup but what might happen if I do my job properly and produce a nicely school, well behaved horse that ends up not being too much for the owner? I might still be riding the horse, then again I might not so I have to get pleasure from the now, not some future promise.

The situation you seem to find yourself in is a tricky one. You have a horse that if you are honest you are not really enjoying and on top of that you are paying significantly for it.
If someone came along tomorrow and offered you a horse that you would enjoyed riding and could go out and do some local comps etc would you change horses? If the answer is yes then you probably should walk away from current horse as you are sticking with it for the wrong reasons.

I know finding the right horse can be difficult but it becomes much easier if you stop thinking of a share as long term and go with something that can give you some pleasure even if only for a short while. You may end up having lots of short term shares but even this has advantages. Every horse you ride improves your knowledge and skill.

I hope the horse I now have will be with me for a while. It's taken me 2 years to find it but I have ridden other horses in that time. Some just once, others for a few weeks but what ever the future holds for current horse I will make sure I am enjoying the NOW. If not then I will walk away.
This is the reality of riding other peoples horses. Can be great fun but you must look at the true current picture and not through rose tinted future glasses.

Must point out I have no problem putting a lot of work in to a horse with the hope that the future will bring great things but not if it means I spend months not enjoying what I'm doing.
 
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Just wanted to quickly update you all after you have given me such helpful advice - vet came out on Friday afternoon and turns out she is lame.

This does explain the random couple of lame steps I sometimes feel on her - vet basically said that it isnt a hugely noticeable lameness but because of her confirmation (she has fairly straight hocks) it means she takes too much weight on her hind legs, and in particular her hind hooves take too much weight at the back of the hooves. At the bottom of her pasterns there is some swelling so clearly she will be in pain from that, so its a week of box rest and bute then to be re-assessed by vet this Friday. Once swelling has gone then she will need some remedial shoes fitted, farrier will have to advise what he thinks is best but something like extended backs on the shoes should help spread the weight a bit better.

Vet gave her another check over (went over her back very thoroughly) and looked at her stifles (she does have locking stifles which I knew about) - all clear everywhere else and said apart from this swelling just above her hooves she is in great health and nothing else about her confirmation should be a reason to cause pain. Stifles are perfect also.

So good news in the sense she is not in any serious pain (no KS etc) and its good that we have a relatively easy to solve lameness/foot problem.

Speaking to her owner last night, she told me that when horse went to the pro she was kicking out/bucking and being naughty like she is with me for the first few weeks with the pro (I knew about this). However she went to pro with only front shoes on (as pro wasnt hacking her). Pro accidentally put back shoes on as well, forgetting that she only came with fronts, and low and behold kicking out/bucking went away. They didnt think anything of it at the time, just great she has settled in and calmed down.

However in light of current vet opinion, putting those back shoes on probably will have alleviated any pain she was feeling at the time because of her feet. So it does sound like this might (fingers crossed!) be the route cause of her pain and her behaviour.

So once swelling is sorted and new shoes are on, then with any luck it might be like riding a different horse! If she is still the same pain in the arse even with new remedial shoes and no swelling then I know to officially call it a day and it is just a case of me and her not getting on.

I did try another horse yesterday that is available for part loan, he is a 10yr old TB and he was lovely (a very correct and genuine type) and there were a lot of plus points to sharing him (closer to home, hacking distance to comp venue etc) so I'm a little bit tempted I must admit, but I want to stick it out with naughty mare and see if she does come good after this issue has been sorted. I've put in so much time and effort with her I dont want to give up just yet, if this resolves the behaviour problems then there is a huge potential in her just waiting to come out - she is a 'wow' kind of horse when she moves well, far more impressive than a TB could ever be.

Thanks again for all the advice, I'm glad I pushed to get the vet out again and fingers crossed this is the cause of the problem we were looking for. And if it still makes no difference I dont feel so bad now for thinking about moving on, as you all said it should be fun and this isnt my horse so I should walk away if I'm not getting anything from this arrangement.
 
DonkeyClub said:
Can she be turned out 24/7 or at least overnight? And can you give her a jolly good lunge before you get on?
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Not sure if you have seen the previous posts on this thread but she is turned out for 6-7 hours per day 7 days per week during the day - vet has put her on box rest from last Friday until he visits again this Friday due to her legs. Being out is the last thing she needs at the moment, we want the swelling to go down not get worse! And I tried lunging her before riding, makes no difference at all.

Turning her out overnight wouldnt give many more hours out than she gets at the moment anyway, and if we really felt strongly enough then yes she could be out 24/7 but personally I dont find that practical. I work until 6 so cant get to her until 6.30, so I'd have to fetch her in the dark, spend hours washing the mud off in the dark (she's grey which doesnt help!), ride and then turn her back out again around 8.30pm when I'm the last person on the yard so that would be pretty dangerous for me to fall or injure myself out in the pitch black fields and no-one would know anything had happened.

I dont think its a case of too much energy anymore, yes she is hot and sharp and naturally a very forwards horse but when we are out hacking she can plod along in walk at a sensible speed regardless of when she was last ridden or turned out. It is only when asking for trot or canter we get the evil mare - and the vet has said the shoeing/hocks issue he identified wouldnt show itself in walk as I'm not asking much of her so the walk wont be causing too much pain, its only when I'm asking for trot or anything faster is when it will really cause her some discomfort so I'm inclined to believe the pain issue may well be the root cause of this problem.
 
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