When to get hooves trimmed?

[ester]

Frank goes 6/7 weeks. He doesn't have any wall at the toe but also doesn't wear quite straight as he still has a tendency (albeit reduced) to land laterally so while that side of his hoof looks quite tidy the walls get a little long on the inside so need keeping in check to keep balance. His frogs are on the floor all of the time all round although his backs are beefier than his fronts.

I suspect the gravel/no road work results in your hooves amandap, as am sure j1ffy's andy ended up with slightly longer walls when he moved back to spain, and I think PS's boys tend to that way too.

 

[Crugeran Celt]

All mine are barefoot, the three minis having never been shod, my old mare who hasn't been shod for the last fifteen years and my cob who has been barefoot since July 2012. They are all trimmed every 8 to 9 weeks but to be honest the cob doesn't need to be done that often but the others do so farrier just tidies his feet up a little. Minis grow the quickest even though they are walked out in hand on the road and lanes regularly. The old mare never leaves the field due to past foot issues and the cob is ridden, not enough, in boots as he struggles over rough ground.

 

[amandap]

No one that I know of advocates the frog being proud of the heels.

But Bowker, who I completely agree with because of what I see in every hardworking barefoot horse, advocates not being able to slide a steel ruler under the frog when the horse is stood on smooth flat concrete.

Ah yes I agree with that so long as the hoof isn't collapsed and the frog squashed which Sophie is prone to.

Yes ester I think most of mine have deeper hooves because of the surface in my yards.

 

[p87]

Mine are trimmed every four weeks. Full stop. End story. Hoof form and function are critical to successful BFing and domestic horses just don't get the movement on the variety of ground needed to keep them trimmed. Even training for a 160 km endurance ride, horse was still trimmed every 4 weeks and we trimmed him 3 days after the ride.

Definitely agree with others - my unshod mare is trimmed every four weeks like clockwork - the only way to keep the feet tidy and free from chips and cracks.

This sounds a bit extreme... must be a NZ thing!
Mine were getting them done every 7 weeks, but farrier ended up only trimming the tiniest sliver of hoof so suggested I let them go for ten weeks and see how they do. I do a lot of road work with mine, so their feet are in pretty good condition as it is, and I can get away with a trim every 12 weeks or so.

 

[stencilface]

Mine has had his shoes off for four months now and hasn't had a trim since the farrier removed the shoes, he's also not in work, aside from the short walks in hand I've started doing on gravel and Tarmac....

Might get a trimmer soon perhaps!

 

[amandap]

Apologies surreygirl17, I meant to say, lovely horse! Got distracted, good luck.

 

[Tnavas]

This sounds a bit extreme... must be a NZ thing!
Mine were getting them done every 7 weeks, but farrier ended up only trimming the tiniest sliver of hoof so suggested I let them go for ten weeks and see how they do. I do a lot of road work with mine, so their feet are in pretty good condition as it is, and I can get away with a trim every 12 weeks or so.

Depends very much on the rate of growth, the surface the live and work on and the amount of work they are doing. If I left Serenity 10 weeks her eet would go terribly out of shape, have chipped and cracked. Every four weeks she keeps them just right.

 

[cptrayes]

Depends very much on the rate of growth, the surface the live and work on and the amount of work they are doing. If I left Serenity 10 weeks her eet would go terribly out of shape, have chipped and cracked. Every four weeks she keeps them just right.

I accept that you are very happy with your horse's feet and that she is sound Tnavas.

But in this country there are quite a few people who would question whether your horse's feet go 'out of shape' so quickly because she is actively trying to make them better fit her own biomechanical needs. Today's rockleyfarm.blogspot.com blog gives an e trend example of what I mean.

 

[Tnavas]

I accept that you are very happy with your horse's feet and that she is sound Tnavas.

But in this country there are quite a few people who would question whether your horse's feet go 'out of shape' so quickly because she is actively trying to make them better fit her own biomechanical needs. Today's rockleyfarm.blogspot.com blog gives an e trend example of what I mean.

A horses feet go out of shape totally because they are narrower at the top than the bottom. The physics of it is that as the horn travels further down the foot it is spread over a wider area. Once the wall is below the level of the sole it's no longer supported and will flare, chip and split.

A Clydesdale is a very heavy horse and the Heavy horses are often seen with feet out of shape because of their weight and insufficient trimming.

My horse needs trimming every four weeks because

1 In summer her feet grow fast

2 She lives on grass 24/7

3 When she works it is mostly on a Sand/rubber arena

4 She does not meet surfaces that will naturally wear the foot away.

5 If I leave her feet up to six/eight weeks which occasionally I've had to - farrier away - her feet flare, chip and split

6 Leaving them to become damaged risks the introduction of seedy toe - which is quite common in NZ

7 Leaving them longer than they should be alters the angles and can lead to ligament/tendon problems, stumbling and tripping

Why would anyone want to risk this?

 

[amandap]

A horses feet go out of shape totally because they are narrower at the top than the bottom. The physics of it is that as the horn travels further down the foot it is spread over a wider area. Once the wall is below the level of the sole it's no longer supported and will flare, chip and split.

Yes, but there should be good, strongly attached lamina ad robust structures to counteract any spreading. Flare, (poor lamina connection) can be controlled by trimming and rasping but it can't be 'cured' by mechanical means, good general health and fitness, diet and metabolic status are the fundamental keys to hoof and lamina health not trimming. The hoof is cone shaped for very good engineering and other reasons but I cannot accept it evolved to be inherently weak and prone to collapse.
I differentiate flare from deviation (support flare) of hooves to accommodate gait and body quirks, which of course regular trimming to strict method doesn't allow.

 

[cptrayes]

A horses feet go out of shape totally because they are narrower at the top than the bottom. The physics of it is that as the horn travels further down the foot it is spread over a wider area. Once the wall is below the level of the sole it's no longer supported and will flare, chip and split.

It is my experience that it is common for a horse's foot to go out of shape because the body above it is not perfectly made. And that making those feet symmetric can lame the horse. I accept that is not what you are talking about with your horse, but I have picked up many times now from this and another forum, a feeling that in New Zealand, trimmers trim symmetry into feet that are trying to create asymmetry to balance a lack of symmetry in their bodies. Is this your experience of NZ?

Today's rockley blog is, as I said, an extreme example. That horse's photo was once 'borrowed' by an NZ trimmer on another forum who drew lines on it to show how she would trim it symmetric. It would look much nicer , but unfortunately the horse in question would also go lame.

 

[Tnavas]

I'm more than happy with my trimming schedule - I've been involved with hundreds of horses over the years and few have ever gone lame for anything more than an abscess.

All my unshod stock gets trimmed every four weeks, starting at just four weeks of age. All my horses have had lovely feet, been sound, straight moving.

When I took over the riding school I ran & leased for nearly 10 years the horses and ponies had terrible feet. They went on to a four weekly trim and after a few months of regular trimming I never again had a horse lame despite the average being around 15+ - the TB's were shod in front and the rest unshod.

When the foot isn't balanced correctly it impacts on the rest of the body.

I have high arches, short toes and automatically roll my weight to the outside of my feet - much to my ballet teachers chagrin!

If I had been given orthotics at a young age I may very well have had my natural alignment corrected and would not be suffering the knee problems I have now. I used to have a young girl stay at the school during the holidays she complained of pains in her legs - I took her to the Dr that was helping me with my stupid feet - he made up orthotics for her shoes and the pains went!

The old expression - No foot, No horse - is very true - balance the feet from a young age and the alignment of bones and joints will be improved.

 

[claribella]

My mares feet are trimmed about once twice a year and I use my radius rasp inbetween. If we have a break from rididng like in the summer hols I find it hard to as I have kids, then once the boys go back to school we do road work every day and that trims her back and I use my radius rasp to help her along the way if she needs it. I just call my podiatrist out for peace of mind really. Shes just very good at self trimming

 

[stencilface]

Whoa at the Rockley blog, that is an interesting shaped hoof! I think my boys feet might end up doing similar, bt hopefully not as extreme

 

[surreygirl17]

Apologies surreygirl17, I meant to say, lovely horse! Got distracted, good luck.

Thanks! Hoping to get on him for the first time this weekend. SO EXCITED!!!

 

[Busybusybusy]

My boys feet haven't been trimmed since he had his last set of shoes on, a year ago tomorrow. Shoes came off in January 2013 and so far he's self trimming - if they grow a bit wonky, so be it, at least I know that he will end up with feet that suit and support him, rather than looking pretty but make him lame.
Unfortunately a lot of us turn to barefoot because of our horses' injuries or lameness as a last resort, having been told that they are at the end of the road. Given that the horse has this to cope with, their funny shaped feet are often necessary for continued soundness (given that food, movement etc is optimal). My thoughts are though, if a horse has never been shod, or had any injury, then their feet would have less need to compensate & therefore trimming in this way is less likely to cause problems.
Rare as hens teeth though!

 

[amandap]

. My thoughts are though, if a horse has never been shod, or had any injury, then their feet would have less need to compensate & therefore trimming in this way is less likely to cause problems.
Rare as hens teeth though!

This is what so many of us hope for the future, start young with lots of movement, good diet, trims if needed etc. (no shoes eek!) and hopefully hooves and horses will be healthier than the ones many of us have to deal with.

Oh, exciting surreygirl17, good luck for the weekend.

 

[OldNag]

Today's rockley blog is, as I said, an extreme example. That horse's photo was once 'borrowed' by an NZ trimmer on another forum who drew lines on it to show how she would trim it symmetric. It would look much nicer , but unfortunately the horse in question would also go lame.

That blog post is really interesting. Fascinating that the hoof can do so much to compensate. .. you csn really see how trimming/shoeing to remove all that would cause problems elsewhere.

In answer to the original question... as often as needed. Could be 5 weeks, could be 5 months. I keep an eye on growth and tidy up odd chips if necessary with a riders' rasp.

 

[amandap]

Which gauge rasp are you all using in the riders rasp?

 

[stencilface]

I have put a riders rasp on my Xmas list to keep his feet tidy, although in four months and only on linseed as a supplement nothing else, his feet are smooth and perfect, didn't even crack when the nail holes grew out

 

[OldNag]

Which gauge rasp are you all using in the riders rasp?

I have the green one. I think it is a medium. I use it sparingly.. great piece of kit!

 

[amandap]

I have the green one. I think it is a medium. I use it sparingly.. great piece of kit!

I meant the plate, sorry. I've tried a green ?medium and it was a bit useless. I wondered if it was fine but I don't think they make fine plates/rasps for them. The owner of it didn't like it either, perhaps they've improved or it is a dud.
I might buy a new plate and ask to borrow it if she can find it.

 

[maccachic]

I accept that you are very happy with your horse's feet and that she is sound Tnavas.

But in this country there are quite a few people who would question whether your horse's feet go 'out of shape' so quickly because she is actively trying to make them better fit her own biomechanical needs. Today's rockleyfarm.blogspot.com blog gives an e trend example of what I mean.

I think you mean on this forum, I have seen the state of feet on here and have seen no improvement from the methods you advocate, I have seen changes for the better in poor feet from the trimming style over here. My horse does plenty of road work as do other with the same trimming regime and all need trimmed 4 -5 weekly. If I leave mine longer my horses feet lose balance and crack not something I want after working so long to get good functioning feet, from horrible feet to begin with (he was 11 when I got him). He competes in every discipline including hunting. However our horses are not stuck in stables so the movement possibly encourages faster growth rates.

There are plenty over here who would question the way of keeping horses in your country, however shutting someone down with different opinions by yelling / protesting loudly is not the best way to deal with opinion which differ from your own.

 

[cptrayes]

I think you mean on this forum, I have seen the state of feet on here and have seen no improvement from the methods you advocate, I have seen changes for the better in poor feet from the trimming style over here. My horse does plenty of road work as do other with the same trimming regime and all need trimmed 4 -5 weekly. If I leave mine longer my horses feet lose balance and crack not something I want after working so long to get good functioning feet, from horrible feet to begin with (he was 11 when I got him). He competes in every discipline including hunting. However our horses are not stuck in stables so the movement possibly encourages faster growth rates.

There are plenty over here who would question the way of keeping horses in your country, however shutting someone down with different opinions by yelling / protesting loudly is not the best way to deal with opinion which differ from your own.

Blimey, where did that come from? Who is trying to shut anyone down???

Far from that, I would love your opinion on the number of horses which go to Rockley as a 'that or retire him' and are allowed to grow the feet they want and come home to go back into full work with wonky feet.

And specifically about the horse in yesterday's blog, who is unsound if his feet are trimmed to look more conventional. What would you do with him?

To be quite honest, I believe the insistence on symmetrical and very frequent trimming is a huge difference between New Zealand and the UK, not just this forum. And my belief is that it is because, I understand, you have a high proportion of Strasser trained trimmers, an approach which I personally think is over interventionist, and of which we have a bad history in this country including convictions for animal cruelty.

 

[OwnedbyJoe]

To be quite honest, I believe the insistence on symmetrical and very frequent trimming is a huge difference between New Zealand and the UK, not just this forum. And my belief is that it is because, I understand, you have a high proportion of Strasser trained trimmers, an approach which I personally think is over interventionist, and of which we have a bad history in this country including convictions for animal cruelty.

Crikey...
I can't comment on NZ but maybe it's a Southern hemisphere thing! (I'm in Western Australia) I trim all my horses every 4 weeks and two of them do upwards of 30 miles a week in training for endurance, barefoot (I boot only for rides) on HARD ground and gravel! The more work they do the more they need to be trimmed - sole thickness and wall growth respond to MOVEMENT. The more they move, the more they need trimming.
I may not take much off every 4 weeks, but I do need to make sure they stay short and are bevelled properly at least that often.
Very few of the trimmers here would advocate 10 weeks between trims unless the owner was able to do touch up trims in between. And I have yet to meet a Strasser trimmer here..
Tnavas seems to have found a system that works for her and her mare which involves frequent trims. I would venture to suggest they don't trim off a LOT each time... Seems a bit harsh to assume that she must therefore be butchering her horse's feet.
And I would concur with the tendency of draft horse feet to splay. Even with excellent foot health. Same as pony feet get tall in the heel and grow into columns if they are not kept trimmed. Nature has not yet evolved to keep up with our ability to select for extremes in size and weight - given her druthers, every horse on the planet would be 14hh and about 350-400 kilos. It's anatomy, not some huge issue with their hoof health.

 

[LD&S]

I have three barefoot horses but am by no means an expert, I do wonder if it's the interpretaion of the word trim that may be a the root of some of the disagreement.
I have someone out to my horses every 6 weeks in summer and 8 in winter to 'trim' my horses feet. He is a trained farrier but the majority of horses he deals with are barefoot and actively encourages it.
The trim is rarely more than a rasp across the bottom, sometimes very light sometimes, depending on growth, a bit more is rasped off and a bevel on the toe. Since he has been looking after their feet (a little over a year now) of the 12 hooves I have only had a small piece chip off one, my previous farrier (they've always been barefoot) was frequently using pinchers to take hoof off and my arab was always getting small cracks on his hooves yet the timescale of 6 & 8 weeks was the same.
Would you consider just rasping a trim?
I don't doubt they could all cope with a 4 weekly trim of the sort they're getting now but a more radical one they couldn't.

 

[amandap]

Crikey...
I can't comment on NZ but maybe it's a Southern hemisphere thing! (I'm in Western Australia) I trim all my horses every 4 weeks and two of them do upwards of 30 miles a week in training for endurance, barefoot (I boot only for rides) on HARD ground and gravel! The more work they do the more they need to be trimmed - sole thickness and wall growth respond to MOVEMENT. The more they move, the more they need trimming.
I may not take much off every 4 weeks, but I do need to make sure they stay short and are bevelled properly at least that often.

I agree with work/movement encouraging growth, I am wondering if the booting on hard terrain is the reason you have to trim so often? Reduced wear?
Many people seem to find wear matches growth in hard working horses on varied terrain. Obviously the horse needs to be able to work happily and safely without boots in this scenario. I also think a trim can, ? should be very minimal, but then we get into the question of what happens if I don't trim in working horses? lol Can the horse regulate it's own growth through wear providing workload is gradually built up or decreased to allow for adaption?

Re heavy horses, I believe they have a more shallow, sloping coffin bone so their hooves will look flatter and more "splayed" but if the lamina are healthy and they get plenty of movement on varied terrain, along with an appropriate diet, they shouldn't collapse like so many TBs hooves do, surely?

 

[cptrayes]

Crikey...
I can't comment on NZ but maybe it's a Southern hemisphere thing! (I'm in Western Australia) I trim all my horses every 4 weeks and two of them do upwards of 30 miles a week in training for endurance, barefoot (I boot only for rides) on HARD ground and gravel! The more work they do the more they need to be trimmed - sole thickness and wall growth respond to MOVEMENT. The more they move, the more they need trimming.
I may not take much off every 4 weeks, but I do need to make sure they stay short and are bevelled properly at least that often.
Very few of the trimmers here would advocate 10 weeks between trims unless the owner was able to do touch up trims in between. And I have yet to meet a Strasser trimmer here..
Tnavas seems to have found a system that works for her and her mare which involves frequent trims. I would venture to suggest they don't trim off a LOT each time... Seems a bit harsh to assume that she must therefore be butchering her horse's feet.
And I would concur with the tendency of draft horse feet to splay. Even with excellent foot health. Same as pony feet get tall in the heel and grow into columns if they are not kept trimmed. Nature has not yet evolved to keep up with our ability to select for extremes in size and weight - given her druthers, every horse on the planet would be 14hh and about 350-400 kilos. It's anatomy, not some huge issue with their hoof health.

NOBODY is talking about anyone butchering horses feet.

Can we please have a rational discussion here without this nonsense of being 'shut down' and 'butchered feet'.

There is a serious question here about two schools of thought, one which accepts that wonky horses grow wonky feet for a good reason, and one which strives for symmetry at all times.

Now, can anyone help with that debate?

PS. In the UK we tend to work a lot on tarmac. It is not normally the case with a horse worked on roads that the more work they do the more they need to e trimmed, it's quite the reverse.

 

[LucyPriory]

How often to trim? Whenever necessary. A skilled HCP (hoof care practitioner) should be able to teach you how to spot the signs. And that is the crucial element. Spotting the signs for your horse. I try and teach all my clients how to spot the signs for their horse, even this varies and not all owners have the confidence to do this.

Context is important, I've worked in four countries on many many different breeds. My experiences in these countries and with the many 100's of horses I've worked on and more importantly my experience with their owners is that you have to immerse yourself in the context for each case because there are so many factors at play.

I've got horses that at some point in their journey have needed doing every 2 weeks and that was absolutely right for them in their situation at that time. I've others that I might see twice a year.

Breed, height, weight and workload are not necessarily the determining factors, neither is having a track.

It all depends on the horse, the owner and their circumstances at that moment in time.

So my advice to the OP is ask your HCP to teach you and badger them until you understand.

 

[dianchi]

NOBODY is talking about anyone butchering horses feet.

Can we please have a rational discussion here without this nonsense of being 'shut down' and 'butchered feet'.

There is a serious question here about two schools of thought, one which accepts that wonky horses grow wonky feet for a good reason, and one which strives for symmetry at all times.

Now, can anyone help with that debate?

PS. In the UK we tend to work a lot on tarmac. It is not normally the case with a horse worked on roads that the more work they do the more they need to e trimmed, it's quite the reverse.

To be fair you were rude straight off to one poster saying that what she was doing was "You trimming routine, to me, sounds bizarre and unnecessary."

Sounds like shutting someone down if you ask me