When to throw in the towel?!

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throughtheforest

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So since April 16, my horse has struggled with soundness after 2 bouts of the dreaded laminitis. He tested positive for ems in June 16 and in December, despite x-rays showing rotation of 10 and 6 degrees, and slight sinking, we were given the go ahead to start exercising (good soles apparently). He's actually done very well, the in-hand walking has really helped awaken his metabolism and he's completely sound in the field and walking on roads etc is fine with boots on.
He's had raised pulses a few times since and I just have to take him off grass straight away. At the age of 7 I can't help but wonder if I can deal with this for the next 10 or so years. He's lucky to have been kept in either a woodchipped paddock or on a track with grass since he's been ill and I'd say his quality of life is still good. Come the spring I do think we are looking at him spending the whole time off grass with hay sadly, as he's been sensitive on/off during the winter.
I just can't believe how this has taken over my life... just need a kick up the bum I think, but I didn't expect to struggle so much with careful management over the winter... Is this it? Will his metabolism give up one day? Will he be able to tolerate grass more eventually? I just live each day as it comes anyway, but even over the winter managing this has been a challenge.
 
There is no definitive answer, he may go downhill and get worse or he may get his metabolism kicked into working properly and lead a long active life, I would aim to get him into full work, once fit really make him use himself and be as lean and muscular as possible, he may not cope but if he does keeping him active will give him the best chance.
I spoke to a vet about this some years ago and he said they rarely saw RS ponies with laminitis or other metabolic conditions because they work hard unlike so many leisure horses that get an hour a day, sometimes not even that on average, of easy exercise and are normally eating for the other 23 hours a day. This conversation came about after I took on a pony with metabolic issues, following a fitness campaign he was far more energetic, was able to be turned out on grass and looked a picture of health with more weight on but it was muscle not fat, when he came he looked poor from dieting.

I hope yours can come right, at 7 it must be worth giving him every chance as he is basically doing well.
 
I think be positive's advice is spot on. I have numerous natives that we work hard and keep on extensive ground and adlib hay. I've never had any metabolic issues with them. Living on hay only isn't the end of the world. Work him as hard as you can (and he is fit for obviously) to give him the best chance I think.
 
Thanks, I agree. Just finding it hard to get him to the point of being ridden at the moment. Rehabing him is like scales which tend to go one way or the other. It's been like it for ages and I feel like another half a year plus to go before we have a horse that can be in full hard work.
My other is a sec a, aged 19, owned him since he was 3 and never had any metabolic issues. He has never been in full work either due to major heart deformities. I've also owned other natives including a shetland who was unworked. I really feel for this guy as it was clearly something he was going to get sooner or later regardless.
 
It will take time and will be a huge commitment to get him fit but once he is there maintaining it should become easier, if he is sound walking in hand is there any reason you cannot start sitting on him it would give you more motivation, get him working more actively to increase the heart rate, walking a sound horse in hand for weeks is a new idea to me I would be getting on as long as they are sound and up to it.
 
He was ridden doing this but we had to reduce it. He can't tolerate a ride more than once a week currently...
It is quite well practiced to walk in-hand to rehabilitate laminitics as the exercise is usually prescribed as soon as they are sound, yet haven't healed fully. Like in my boys case. The damage that has been done causes soreness if they do too much on the roads, rough ground or in saddle. It's about the laminae being damaged in the hoof, essentially the horse's suspension system. This is how the vet described the hoof structure to me... he did diagrams too but damned if I can work out how to add anything like that onto here. The exercise is used in such a way to promote healing, speeding up the metabolism. This might not be suitable in every horse's case but was recommended in my horse's case by 5/6 different pros (4 vets, 1 trimmer and 1 farrier).
 
I'm usually a lurker but thought I'd let you know what worked for me and my pony...
My pony suffered with laminitis for 2 years making small improvements then relapsing, she got diagnosed with EMS and the metformin helped but she still wasn't sound enough to start proper work so I couldn't get her fit enough to be able to keep up with any type of work to help with her EMS/lami, my vet then suggested as our last attempt to send her swimming and get her non weight bearing exercising and rid of toxins and see if it helps.. it was the best thing I ever did and so pleased I invested in doing it as I know I wouldn't have my pony today if I hadn't given it a go!! She now lives out 24/7 and we are 5 years on from our ordeal of laminitis, it got her fitter than she ever had been and reduced her body fat so she was a little sleek racehorse lol!!
I have sent her back for holidays as I was so impressed with the results and it would be what I'd do again if I ever had to deal with laminitis again.
Sorry it's turned into a bit of an essay 😊
 
Thank you for sharing your experience S. So pleased to hear how successfully yours has recovered.
I'm having a look into it now as hydrotherapy isn't something I had thought of. How many sessions did yours do?
 
She went for a long weekend first, then I took her back and left her for 8 weeks but that was down to preference she improved within a couple of weeks of being there. Some insurance companies will cover the cost for it or put towards it, I don't have Sabrina insurered I just have a pot of money for her but I wish I knew about it a lot sooner as I spent an absolute fortune on her with vet bills, physio and lots of different shoeing. Not too sure where you are based I'm in Lancashire and viewed a couple of set ups but went with higherspen equestrian as Jane who owns/runs it so knowledgeable and lovely. Hope you manage to get your pony sorted soon as i know the feeling of the long hard slog you have with laminitis :( xxxxx
 
FfionWinnie said:
I think be positive's advice is spot on. I have numerous natives that we work hard and keep on extensive ground and adlib hay. I've never had any metabolic issues with them. Living on hay only isn't the end of the world. Work him as hard as you can (and he is fit for obviously) to give him the best chance I think.
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Whereas my cob had ad lib hay and had the legs worked off him yet still got LGL which then became full blown laminitis despite the most careful management in the world, and ultimately led to him being PTS.

Only 30% of horse that have sunk recover. And almost without exception once they have suffered from laminitis that badly, that is what kills them. Sometimes you get 20yrs, sometimes you get 20 days, but it gets them in the end :(

The sort of life you describe was a factor, although only a small one, in my decision to have mine PTS. For me its not a good enough quality of life. Winter is the easy bit, spring/summer/autumn is when it gets really hard! Only you can decide what you want for your pony though.

Is he on metformin? Mine lost weight when we gave him that even though he wasnt overweight and was negative on all the metabolic tests we did.
 
be positive said:
I spoke to a vet about this some years ago and he said they rarely saw RS ponies with laminitis or other metabolic conditions because they work hard unlike so many leisure horses that get an hour a day, sometimes not even that on average, of easy exercise and are normally eating for the other 23 hours a day.
Click to expand...

As someone who taught for years and worked at a few different riding schools I saw more than my fair share of ponies with laminitis. A lot did hover around the LGL stage though, so clearly exercise does play a big part. The problem is if you have a recovering laminitic you cant exercise them to the degree that a sound horse can be exercised in a riding school.

My vet said sensitivity can and will change, sometimes better sometimes worse and thats the bit they cant predict.
 
FrankieCob said:
Whereas my cob had ad lib hay and had the legs worked off him yet still got LGL which then became full blown laminitis despite the most careful management in the world, and ultimately led to him being PTS.

Only 30% of horse that have sunk recover. And almost without exception once they have suffered from laminitis that badly, that is what kills them. Sometimes you get 20yrs, sometimes you get 20 days, but it gets them in the end :(

The sort of life you describe was a factor, although only a small one, in my decision to have mine PTS. For me its not a good enough quality of life. Winter is the easy bit, spring/summer/autumn is when it gets really hard! Only you can decide what you want for your pony though.

Is he on metformin? Mine lost weight when we gave him that even though he wasnt overweight and was negative on all the metabolic tests we did.
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Thanks for your reply. Sorry to hear about your horse, it must have been horrific for you. I can empathise with the difficult management, as it's just a case of what works for one doesn't work for them all.
I also understand and have known some horrific sole penetration cases that have come through the other side. Not that I would support the rehab of those cases, but they have come back into full-work and that is 3/4 cases that I know of, including sinker.
In my case, my horse has lost a lot of weight since starting work and has been galloping around field etc but I don't think it's above the realms of possibility that he hasn't had on/off lgl, which is why I dread the next trimmer visit... If despite the careful management he continues to deteriorate with lgl. Which I can't tell that well but I know the trimmer will tell me, then we will have to call it a day. If trimmer says he's showing progress then I'll keep going. Not this visit but the visit in March will have to be the decisive one, otherwise spring will just be too traumatic... If he can't tolerate grass in the winter, then he will never have a quality of life that a horse should have.
 
My big wb had raised pulses more often than he didn't. I could not get them down. I read a study that showed that ceylonese cinnamon was very effective at reducing insulin resistance, and is also a good anti inflammatory. Touch wood, it's worked for him.
Has to be ceylonese or 'true' cinnamon though.
 
Cinnamon is good for horses and people. Lots of the laminitic supplements and feeds contain it. I've just chucked a bag out or I could have sent you it. I was feeding cinnamon, nettle, milk thistle and linseed. I bought it all separate and just mixed it together. It didnt work out too expensive. Not idea if it helped or not and I stopped it after a couple of months when we were reaching crisis point, but all those things are supposed to help laminitis so might be worth a try.
 
A life without grass doesn't sound that bad to me if you can accommodate it though. If I had an opportunity to choose, I would keep my mare as grass free as possible because I could feed her more and more safely.

If you don't have the facilities then that may be a different matter but I don't think horses live for grass.

Good luck with your lad, sounds like you are doing whatever you can for now.
 
Has the rotation been corrected? That is the first thing, once you've found the cause and removed/treated it, that should be done before any movement.
Life without grass, if you can find a suitable alternative, isn't the end of the world for a horse. High fibre haylage is quite often suitable. Get your forage tested so you know what you're feeding.
Have you tested for Cushings?
These people are a excellent source of info

http://ecirhorse.org
http://www.thelaminitissite.org/laminitis.html
 
Thanks for all your pointers. I'm going to look into cinnamon. Virtually all of the swimming centres are a bit too far away unfortunately. But he was ridden today by my rider and pulses were taken an hour or so afterwards which were non-existent.
I've gone over some questions over and over again with vets and trimmers so forgive me if you think I'm being rude, but I'm not going to continuously go over the same points again. Cushings not on the radar, no vet feels the need to test for this currently.
 
I agree no grass isn't the end of the world but tests of forage have concluded that some grass is actually lower in sugar etc than hay. It's simply just not as clear cut as doing x, y and z to get a specific result. Vets don't 100% know, neither do trimmers or farriers. It's quite simply research that may help and so far so good.
Still dread the spring though! I'm working on grazing their track down completely so they can at least have mostly soaked hay through the spring.
 
FrankieCob said:
Cinnamon is good for horses and people. Lots of the laminitic supplements and feeds contain it. I've just chucked a bag out or I could have sent you it. I was feeding cinnamon, nettle, milk thistle and linseed. I bought it all separate and just mixed it together. It didnt work out too expensive. Not idea if it helped or not and I stopped it after a couple of months when we were reaching crisis point, but all those things are supposed to help laminitis so might be worth a try.
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Ginger too. I find the diabetes websites are excellent for recommendations as to what can help insulin resistance.
 
FrankieCob said:
As someone who taught for years and worked at a few different riding schools I saw more than my fair share of ponies with laminitis. A lot did hover around the LGL stage though, so clearly exercise does play a big part. The problem is if you have a recovering laminitic you cant exercise them to the degree that a sound horse can be exercised in a riding school.

My vet said sensitivity can and will change, sometimes better sometimes worse and thats the bit they cant predict.
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I was not suggesting the OP exercised her horse to the extent of a RS one but that prevention is better than cure, that if horses worked harder they may be less prone to metabolic issues and that once recovered working hard could be the way to keep another attack at bay, obviously increasing exercise gradually and getting it really fit, not just a pottle about the lanes for half an hour, then working it so it blows regularly should increase the metabolic rate and help get it back on track.
I have also worked in different yards including a few RS and don't remember any RS ponies having soundness problems, other than the normal knocks and cuts, there must be a reason behind so many horses being challenged metabolically it is not just due to better diagnostics, the most likely reason is too much of the wrong type of food and not enough exercise, probably a simplistic view but if "we" stopped feeding so much and worked them harder they may be healthier generally.
 
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