When will the colour BUCKSKIN be recognised!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

cruiseline

cruiseline

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I just don't understand it, with all the research that has gone on regarding the colour make-up of horses, why is this still happening.
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I went to make some entries for the Futurity today and got to the colour section, guess what, there is no BUCKSKIN in the choice of colours, but yes PALOMINO is there.
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If I was to enter my BUCKSKIN stallion he would have had to have gone in as a DUN and he isn't one.
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Surely the BEF should know the difference.
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Anyone entering their BUCKSKIN babies would have them all classed as DUN's.
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When is the UK going to see the light
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Or are we to enter them all as PALOMINO's and call them "the ones with black manes, tails and legs".
 
Even when you explain the gentics they will still call them Duns it's an old habit that just wont die in the establishment!!

New Forest reply to my sisters enlightening e mail telling them where the strange perlino foal came from (ps they think they are all cremellos) said the "duns" sold very well at the sales last year!!!! I have never seen a dun on the new forest, they are all buckskins with a lot of black buckskins too which they haven't got a single clue about.

The palomino society had little idea how you bred them when I contacted them for something to do a few years ago!!! Also if you try for a palomino with a registered parent/parents and fail you can't register the foal!!!

Coloured classes are the worst my dun is a registered appaloosa that looks like a bright bay as he is a dark dun not yellow, have had a few arguements about this one!!!

Keep badgering them, I am told that the dun gene test is not far away, maybe that might help?
 
I really hope that the DUN gene test is on the horizon, as I am really starting to get p***ed off about this now.
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I plan to breed lots and lots of little BUCKSKIN babies, I do not own any DUN horses.
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It is a real shame that I don't have a buckskin baby to take to the Futurity this year as I then would be able to really kick up a stink!!!!!!
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Next year, next year
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What is the difference?

I am one who would probably call them all dun and cremello!!

I've only just found out that skewbald and piebald aren't as simple as all that too, what with sabino, overo and tobiano!!!
 
Cruiseline, move to America ... they will appreciate your boy's colour. And bring him with you (and, well, all of your lovelies, really). Erm ... and of course I don't mean that for purely selfish reasons since I'll be moving back there soon!
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Dorsal stripes. One has them, one doesnt and I can't remember which way round it is... I'm sure someone will enlighten us.

But of course thats just the physical difference - genetically its a lot different.

I think its just England that likes it simple - bay, chestnut, grey, piebald, skewbald, dun and palomino and brown/black!

The US you then get buckskins, smokey blacks, tobianos, few spots etc etc etc...
 
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Cruiseline, move to America ... they will appreciate your boy's colour. And bring him with you (and, well, all of your lovelies, really). Erm ... and of course I don't mean that for purely selfish reasons since I'll be moving back there soon!
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[/ QUOTE ]

lol Sounds like a plan
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Here is Dubai, they wouldn't have a clue either, hes just GOLD to them, well isn't everything over here
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I have a skewbald, who I bought 11 years ago. I was told then he was lemon and white, over the years this got changed to dun and white, and then a clever person told me he is buckskin and white!

But to most people, he is still dun. Not sure how he got that way either, with a spotted dam and a red roan sire!
 
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I really hope that the DUN gene test is on the horizon, as I am really starting to get p***ed off about this now.
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I plan to breed lots and lots of little BUCKSKIN babies, I do not own any DUN horses.
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It is a real shame that I don't have a buckskin baby to take to the Futurity this year as I then would be able to really kick up a stink!!!!!!
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Next year, next year
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I heard that it was, am waiting for it myself, my grey girl Sirena was chocolate dun at birth, had her tested for the cream gene but she is not carrying it, and came back homozygous bay, so she MUST be a dun - can't wait for the test either. Also can't wait for the grey test
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Urm... without wanting to get my head bitten off by having no clue, but what is the difference between a buckskin and a dun?

*goes to hid in a corner to avoid any rocks*

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Read the whole thread! The dun has a dorsal stripe (I soooo wanted to write fin there!) there is also the fact that buckskin sounds way more cool than dun, I'm sorry but Yellow dun just sounds ugly...I know they're not before anyone gets upset!
 
Dun is just a separate gene. Buckskin is caused by a creme gene on a bay horse, but dun is a totally different gene that also gives a dorsal stripe etc.
 
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Dun is just a separate gene. Buckskin is caused by a creme gene on a bay horse, but dun is a totally different gene that also gives a dorsal stripe etc.

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I know it is probably a stupid question to all those that know the answer <sigh> but can a bay carry a creme gene and not be dun (if you know what I mean)?

BTW, Rin's dam is described as dun (but must actually be buckskin I presume) and his sire is described as dark bay so just wondering where his very pale base colour (which can get darker flecks as summer progresses) comes from.
 
No, if a bay carries the creme gene then it will always be buckskin [I think thats what you mean?] Creme dilutes the colour of the base coat, hence if you have a double dilute [two copies of the creme gene] then your horse will be a cremello, perlino or smokey creme [that is two copies of creme on a chestnut, bay and black horse respectively]
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A horse can carry creme and dun, so some horses will have both - also dun dilutes the base coat to an extent also, but it is easy to see why they are confusing. You just have to know what to look out for.
 
I'm going to make a confession here - I used to be VERY into model horse "breeding" (aka pedigree assignment) in my younger years and I learnt one HELL of a lot from talking to Americans about colour genetics. It's really a fascinating subject and some of the colours you get from particular genetics are just amazing. It took me a long time to get my head round duns vs buckskins, and even longer for other colours...
The most gorgeous colour I "discovered" was the perlino, I saw a stunning perlino mare a couple of years back at a BWBS grading at Hartpury, she was SO shimmery and just beautiful.
I really ought to do some reading up on colours again, see what has happened in the last five or six years!
It will take a long time for the UK to take it's head out of the colour genetics sand bucket IMO...
 
Don’t get hung up on dorsal stripes they can be inherited separately some bays have them and so to do some buckskins!

Ok Horse colours, this might end up a bit long but I will try and keep it simple so I’m not going into combinations or much detail here!

Base coat colours, there are only two

Chestnut
Black

Additional genes or Factors that affect those base colours, these are not colours but effects on the base colours:

Bay/Brown the Agouti gene that changes black to seal brown (black with tan muzzle and soft parts (the t gene), brown, or brown with black points (Bay). So when looking at other factors bay/brown is best described an honorary base coat colour (brown is recessive to bay within this group).

Grey is a dominant that if inherited will turn virtually the whole coat no matter what the colour to white over a period of years, it’s not a colour but an effect on pigment, many individuals with this develop melanomas.

The dilutes – These are a series of genes that are dominant with incomplete pentrance. That is they dominate the base coat colours but do not obscure them, they in effect change the shade of the colour either very minimally or drastically:

The Cream gene– The most dominant of the colour genes when inherited in homozygous (2 copies) form. This is the only dilute gene that has a cumulative effect i.e. shows a difference in colour when 2 copies are inherited.

If a single copy of the gene is received from one parent then you get a single dilute as follows:

Bay base – Yellow Buckskin often mistaken for a dun, can have a dorsal stripe, it will be wide and fuzzy (dorsal stripes are inherited separately) but will not have the wild markings of the dun.
Brown base – Dark buckskin, hard to distinguish, scan be ort of a mousy colour or mimics a drown or even dark chestnut
Black base – Black buckskin or Smokey black (which can be very difficult if not impossible to spot.
Chestnut base – Palomino ranging from brownish through golden coin to very pale yellow.

If a horse gets 2 copies of this gene then it will be a so called “blue eyed cream” or or Pseudo Albino (there are no albino’s in the horse).

These are really faded with pinkish skin and can be impossible to decipher which base coat they have but:
Bay/Brown base – Perlino
Black Base – Smokey Cream
Chestnut base – Cremello

The Dun Gene

Another dilution gene that is said to make one side of the hair opaque giving a dullish dilution to the original coat. The dun will have a dorsal stripe and other “wild” markings such as a 2 shades darker head, a cobweb type pattern on the head, zebra like barring on the legs lighter colours in the mane etc.

Dun does not double dilute the coat if a horse gets 2 copies of the gene so unlike Cream you can have a whole breed of duns – Fjords – who also have dilutes as well! (Dunskins, Dunminos and Dunmellos oh you get the drift!) The now extinct European Tarpan was also a breed of wild duns.

Bay/ Brown – Yellow dun ranging from bright yellow through to dark bay like coat colours (see picture on my sig below)

Black – The Grulla ranging from a silver shade through slate grey to very dark almost black
Chestnut – Red Dun through light peach to very dark red, will have red dorsal etc.

There are other rarer dilutes along the lines of dun such as:

Champagne - creates pumpkin-coloured freckled skin, amber, greenish, or blue eyes, and gives a bronze cast to hair.

Silver Dapple/Taffy - only acts upon black hair pigment, it lightens black body hair to a chocolate brown and the mane and tail to silver. On a Bay/Brown a reddish colour with chocolate points is seen and flaxen, chocolate, or a combination of both, manes and tails. The gene may be carried by but will not be readily visible on horses with a red base coat. If dappling is present in the horse then the coat will have a lighter dappling throughout the coat, sometimes making the horse appear slightly pinkish (Silver Dapple).

Mushroom – seen in Shetlands and Icelandics – Pure theory at the moment range from pale almost creamy to dark similar to Chocolate. Coats often start off darkish with each coat change, but fade over time. Under the mane, where light doesn't hit, they tend not to fade. Mushroom ponies appear in lines where the cream gene is absent, and don't throw cream dilutes.

There is said to be a newly discovered recessive dilute Pearl that is said to be much like Champagne. One dose of the mutation does not change the coat colour of black, bay or chestnut horses. Two doses on a chestnut background produce a pale, uniform apricot colour of body hair, mane and tail. Skin coloration is also pale. Pearl is known to interact with Cream dilution to produce pseudo-double Cream dilute phenotypes including pale skin and blue/green eyes.
I have not looked closely at this one I think; on first read I think it might well be due to Cream and Champagne together that would have this effect so I am unconviced re the existance of this.

Roan
Born fully roan or with a small patch of white hairs, that change on foal coat moult to a pattern of white hair mixed in with base colour, roans stay roan for life and do not fade and their base colour will show at the extremities (head and legs). If the roan gets scarred on its body the hair will grow back the base coat colour not white! Thought to be available as a single gene only (heterozygous) the theory is that a zygote with 2 copies of the gene does not implant in the womb, this is often put down to infertility in that breeding cycle.
Roan + Bay – Bay roan
Roan + Black – Blue roan
Roan + Chestnut – Strawberry Roan


The “Spotting Patterns” (Coloureds and spotted)

Sabino – Thought to be where all white patterns mutated from and I believe is the result of a series of genes. It is associated with roan-like markings abundant white on the legs, belly spots or body spots that are can be flecked and roaned, chin spots, or white on the face extending past the eyes often confused with overo or splash. Some TB’s born white are a result of the full expression of this gene. There is currently a test for Sabino 1 but treat this with caution as it has already been shown that this test does not explain markings found in Clydesdales and Arabs!!!!

Tobiano
Produces regular and distinct ovals or rounded patterns of white and colour with a somewhat vertical orientation. White extends across the back, down the legs, but face and tail are usually dark. This is a simple dominant and can be tested for homozygous individuals.

Overo - Pattern that forms a solid frame around white spotting. White is usually horizontal in orientation with jagged edges, colour crosses the back and legs, face is often white. A Homozygous overo is associated with lethal white syndrome, The foal has an incomplete colon leading to a painful death within days of birth if not PTS.

Splashed White
Colouring often recorded as overo family, but possibly related to other genes including of course sabino. Resembles reverse tobiano with white moving from the bottom of the horse towards the top. The horse's head will look as if dunked in bucket of white paint. Commonly has blue eyes. There is a theory that they are all deaf?

Appaloosa
I’ll leave this one as I will blow up the server! But I believe it is a polygenic series (several genes at work).
 
Well done KarynK, that was facinating reading.

Yes the buckskin and the dun are created by TWO DIFFERENT (hope that was loud enough) genes and it really is about time the British Equestrian World recognised that fact.

You can guarantee the I will not be putting or accepting the world DUN on any paperwork that might go forward for my (hopefully) future golden babies. (not that I have anything against Duns, there lovely)

I would also like to add to what KarynK has detailed above. Now I am not 100% sure, but I did hear that Dun horses do not have dappling in their coats, where as Buckskins definately can, as my boy below has shown. Also you can get what is known as a sooty buckskin which can be quite dark.
 
Yes, I think the sooty factor can play an important part in the dilutes some of which you just can't see for looking, have seen a lot of suspect dark buckskins on the New Forest that you would need tested to tell for sure.
This one is a brown buckskin Morgan
http://www.morgancolors.com/springtownlaurel.jpg
and this could be mistaken for a dark chestnut!
http://www.jpsbar97.com/images/tater_09_25_05ee.jpg

and this says it all (including dorsal stripe)!!!!!
http://www.ultimatehorsesites.com/brokenbackranch/images/WowSugarnBuckskinFilly9.14.07.JPG

So on dark colours until they produce a palomino you just wouldn't know!

Certainly my dark dun (below) shows no dapples, but his mother has them. I am waiting for his results as I suspect his colour might come from a t (black and tan) gene, its a mystery what separates a yellow dun from a dark one like him, previously thought by geneticists to be red, well he proved them wrong and me at the time who was saying well they can't be wrong he has to be a chestnut, know better now!

My Buckskin connemara x TB had dapples when you clipped him out and lovely golden ones in the summer.
 
Sorry for hijacking but if you put a bay mare to a stallion (welsh D) that is down as bay (I think) on his papers, but is in fact EITHER very dark dun or a v dark buckskin - and they have a palomino foal (with dapples and black spots!!) - which is he likely to be then - buckskin or dun?

He has golden speckles around his stifle and on his face, but is all over a very dark nearly black colour... Can get a photo or two if it helps?
 
I would say buckskin unless he has the dun markings - because the stallion could be a dark dunskin and have both dun and creme - complicated!

It can be very difficult to tell, a picture might help. However if foal is pally then I would say more likely to be a buckskin, but can't say for sure just on the description.
 
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And of course the offspring, spawn of satan herself... with mum

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So far he's thrown coloureds to coloured mares, a pally or two, a chestnut or two and lots of bays, and one him coloured and one that was dun or buckskin...

Again apologies for the hijack!
 
Doesn't look like he has any dun charateristics and if he has no dorsal stripe the he is not a dun, would have expected to see obvious dun's in that many offspring too so the "dun" he threw would be a buckskin. Also some of the darker shades would be dark buckskins as well.

I wonder what makes the difference between the yellow and the dark? Must be on coat shades and perhaps sooty and dapples have an effect?

So hazzard a guess at "brown" as a base carrying chestnut and 1 creme gene, so your palamino's mum has one black and one chestnut gene as well, 25% chance of chestnut and 50% creme (in this case palomino) on that mating!!!

Plus someone has dapples in that mix too!
 
sorry for hijacking! quick question, chestnut/roan = strawberry roan, how much white has to be in the coat to be classed as a roan and would a strawberry roan be born that colour or chestnut???
thanks
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He has thrown a lot of bays to anoher bay mare so we were expecting bay, or chestnut as we knew he carried a chestnut gene as we'd seen a ginga baby...

we were not expecting

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which turned into this (we thought she might go dun/buckskin for a while)

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I love all this colour stuff!
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Hence dabbling in Appy breeding now - can't wait to see what we get, the randomness is fun!
 
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