Where are your hands?!

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Axel'sMum

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Hi all! Bought my boy about 2 yrs ago when he was 8. He had done v little flatwork, having jumped a lot. We've been doing a bit of everything together. When am doing flatwork I find he's in quite a nice outline when my hands are lowish and a little on the wide side. When I lift my hands up so my forearms are at 90 degrees to my upper arms and my wrists closer together - where I think my hands are supposed to be - I feel like my position is better but I get resistance from him mainly in the mouth (teeth out, mouth open) and some hollowness. Am currently trying different bits to see if that makes any diffrence. Teeth, back etc all ok. Any thoughts? X
 
My hands tend to be about 45degree angle at elbow anymore and the line elbow/hand/mouth would be broken!!
I do have to open them slightly wider sometimes to assist keeping the outline on my new mare who hasn't done much- especially when doing centre lines etc
I had an ex racer who had to have low hands and wide or he would fight it- it took a year to be able to lift my hands and him stay soft
 
Sorry, but what is this low-wide hands thing? If there is a broken line from elbow to mouth it is just plain WRONG. Feels wrong to the horse, blocks any chance for the rider to respond, breaks the 'elastic' from hand/elbow/back muscle to the horse's jaw. If the horse will only go in an outline if the hands have to be low then the horse IS NOT properly on the aids and is being tricksied on to the bit. What puts the horse 'through' and onto the bit is the leg & seat, NOT the hands.
 
Cortez said:
Sorry, but what is this low-wide hands thing? If there is a broken line from elbow to mouth it is just plain WRONG. Feels wrong to the horse, blocks any chance for the rider to respond, breaks the 'elastic' from hand/elbow/back muscle to the horse's jaw. If the horse will only go in an outline if the hands have to be low then the horse IS NOT properly on the aids and is being tricksied on to the bit. What puts the horse 'through' and onto the bit is the leg & seat, NOT the hands.
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Quite.

Your forearms should not be at 90 degrees to your upper arms! Ever. Straight line from elbow to bit.

Lessons with a good dressage instructor (and I mean *good*. Not some numpty who advocates draw reins and sawing the bit) should sort out you and your horse :).
 
Cortez said:
Sorry, but what is this low-wide hands thing? If there is a broken line from elbow to mouth it is just plain WRONG. Feels wrong to the horse, blocks any chance for the rider to respond, breaks the 'elastic' from hand/elbow/back muscle to the horse's jaw. If the horse will only go in an outline if the hands have to be low then the horse IS NOT properly on the aids and is being tricksied on to the bit. What puts the horse 'through' and onto the bit is the leg & seat, NOT the hands.
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*LIKE*

Been spending quite a lot of time on this...instructor insisting on working on me and my position, and my hands quietly where they should be, and letting the horse come to me. Oddly enough, this appears to be working. :)
 
I would not get too hung up on the exact placement of the hand (inches and angles of elbow), within reason.

The rider should firstly focus on the seat, the better the seat then the better draped the leg and the more effective the forward driving aids. Secondly the better the seat the better the upper body alignment and hence the shoulders can be draped back and down which is where the elasticity of the contact continues to come from. The shoulders are relaxed, the upper arm hangs straight down with a good bend to the elbow. The angle of forearm to upper arm will vary slightly person to person depending on the riders conformation and for instance in rising trot this angle will be opening and closing to allow the upper body to be moving up and down but allowing for the hand to stay still in relation to the horse..

This straight line from elbow to bit is an interesting one. In principle I agree but it does not hold true in every event. The principle being that this straight line allows for the most following soft contact. However when looking from above does everyone have that same straight line? I know I don't as I have my hands about 6inches apart and so when looking from above the line comes from my elbow, into my hands and then to the bit - the straight line is broken. To have that straight line when looking from both angles, (side on and down from above) I would have to have my hands wide, which I do not agree with.

Although I agree with the leg and seat being the foundation the hand is always involved just in the correct way.
Simon
 
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I think it is worth looking at the proportions of the rider's arms too, some have shorter arms or arms shorter at the top and that means they have to drop their hands slightly to achieve a direct line to the bit. We are not all the same, a long back also makes a big difference too. It can cause the rider to round their back and drop their arms. The main thing is to ride with a straight but supple back and shoulders and with soft hands, and always ride from the leg.
 
Simon, I was only referring to angle from side on. If that is the only angle we are considering that wouldn't mean you hands would need to be wide would it? Just picturing it!
 
When riding, point your index finger as if firing a gun - it should point toward the horse's bit (so hands will be lower when horse's head is lower, higher when horse's head is higher).
 
ester said:
Simon, I was only referring to angle from side on. If that is the only angle we are considering that wouldn't mean you hands would need to be wide would it? Just picturing it!
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Okey dokey. My point of view is that it is not really any point overly worrying about a straight line elbow to mouth when looking from the side when this straight line does not exist when looking from above.
Simon
 
Simon Battram said:
Okey dokey. My point of view is that it is not really any point overly worrying about a straight line elbow to mouth when looking from the side when this straight line does not exist when looking from above.
Simon
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My mare disagrees with this :). She knows the difference between my hands being high or low, as well as whether they are wide or narrow i.e. they can feel the changes in the bit when your hands do different things and you can use different hand positions to give different signals for what you want i.e. stay in position for normal, then moving the hand/s means a specific signal.
In my mare's case it is (roughly, as depends on what the legs and seat are doing too) - hands lower blocks her forward movement/ hands higher powers her up for medium work/ hands wide and she chills out/ hands narrow and she expects reins in one hand for a halt (I don't think she was ever ridden forward much with reins in one hand only before i got her).
 
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