Where did EE go wrong in your opinion? if you thought it did!

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sorry, EventingGaladriel, i obviously misread your post.
good to hear that OT was so helpful and did everything he could.
very very bad course design to make a bank and a following corner look so similar and trick the horses.
all i can think of is poor Mary and her girls, driving such a long way home with an empty lorry.
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yeah thats the wrst thing aboutit. and also that thre will be an stable. she still has some amazing horses but thats not the point.
 
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ditto you with the not the riders.

Firstly I thought when Tara PT was fussing about the slippy ground that she was just not used to riding on anything other than a surface, but then i watched that grey horse slip a bit and realised that maybe it was!
Honestly, when that french horse fell over the bank (tbh, that bank is making my blood boil more than anything), and the next few failed to complete I wish I would have listened to my instinct and gotten up and walked out

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Wierdly, WFP said that TPT and JK were not told to use studs, and no-one thought to stud their horses up, hence the slipping. He also said he was worried about the ground because it felt greasy when he walked it, but it rode perfectly with studs in so was fine.
 
Friend was there who is 4* rider thought all the distances were really long after all Pau 4* was carnage and designed by same designer. I think they are pushing too far with the technicality of fences as half the horses coming off the bank literally had 1 stride and they had another question immediately. The corners I thought were horrific as not clear at all and if a horse like Lenamore thinks he should be jumping the whole lot then what hope was there for some younger/bigger horses. I felt desperately sorry for Karin Donkers as her horse was fabulous and looks like a normal format star but this fried his brains as he was trying so hard but questions after tight question kept coming up and he said enough was enough same as Miners Frolic.
 
I dont think the ground caused any problems at all... I think the issue was that it was underestimated how alot of horses need the gallop inbetween fences to digest what theyve just done, Im not so much talking about Cav, more about Gandalf, Stand By Me, Karin Donkers horse, even Ballincoola wasnt comfortable, just trusted WFP with all his heart...
 
Yep, those corners were really unforgiving, not nice at all, and the lines were really tight - what I watched looked like all the hard questions from the years 3 and 4 stars gathered together in a small space. There was very little let up.
 
sounds as if it was a horrible spectacle, which was what i feared when the idea was mooted.
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the riders trusted the course designer to get it right. they must be really disappointed and furious too.
as for not studding up the horses for TPT and JK, didn't they have grooms to suggest it? on slippery muddy grass? jeeeez.
 
Copying what I wrote in other thread...
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Just got back and sadly this thread confirmed my fears. It was obvious he had broken it I would say near stifle personally. Up until that point it was an interesting competition.

The SJ wasn't difficult there was an '0' comprising 6 fences (i think!) in the middle you had three marked routes in (fences 3,8 and 9) and you could take any of the others out and could jump them more than once unless you knocked it down in which case next time round you had to jump a different one. Nich touzain and Alex fell foul of this getting eliminated.

In the XC main questions were
4 Bank (jump up stride jump down) followed by stride (or 2 short) so angled brush. Quite few run outs here and First ride in went far too fast at the bank and the horse landed and collasped in front sending rider flying. He was winded but fine and I think mightly embaressed.

8 bank (in other direction) with stride after (or 2 short) to wide corner. again lots run outs also Tina Cook banked it (not prob) then also Mark T banked it but much further in and the weight of horse + good foot of sand made centre section collaspe (after he cleared it) they then removed fence as although they fixed it wasn't flat beneath sand (they put supporting struts on wood covering hole!)

9 triple of brushes- large wide table with brush then sharp 90 degree left turn to two angled brushed with water 'ditches' in front. Many missed turn and presented wrong. Some got away with it (namely WFP for one!) many others had run outs.

Water x2 several horses backed off/stoped presumably due to different colour of water (still had sand base) second water jumped clear though by all 6 who jumped it.

12 i think it was Double large corners. Lots of glance offs but striding was bit questionnable depending on pace. This was where mary fell, she went on a very long stride and cavy went to bank but dragged his back leg falling heavily. I don't think she could have put the extra stride in though as he is so big striding if she had shortened him enough he wouldn't have cleared the corners.

A lot of people got lost Lucy, Clayton to name just two (although they found way without incurring penalty!) and I think it was Phillip Dutton who missed out 2 or 3 fences completly!

The course was difficult but apart from the first fall (which was blatent rider error for being far too fast IMHO) and Marys which was simply a tradgic accident it was causing run outs rather than anything else.

Oli well yes he won and he won by miles but I had my heart in my mouth. He was riding FAR FAR FAR too fast IMHO taking some absolute flyers on ground that was known to be slippy (Tara PT retired during her 'sedate' SJ round because her horse was slipping all over the place yes I don't think it had studs but it couldn't keep its back legs upright!). He was a very lucky man and good on him he won by a clear mile but his round for me was painful to watch not inspiring.

I must say I have a lot more respect for Bettina for withdrawing, she may not be the bravest XC rider but she went in jumped round the SJ and retired, knowing although she would never win by retiring she was giving up a lot of potential prize money so my upmost respect to her.

It was an interesting day, very empty stadium to be honest which was a shame but it was certainly entertaining up until nearly the end. Just so sad it had to end in such tradegy.

My heart goes out to Mary and all connections. You could she from her reaction on getting up and seeing Cavy that she knew. Credit must go to the organisers/stewards who were so quick with screens etc (they even had a gazebo ready to cover him if need be as obviously everyone eas sitting above the course) and of course the vets and horse ambulance.

Anyway thats my account of a mixed day. Oh and to the woman sitting behind me who insisted on crossing her legs and as on end of row sticking her leg out so it was constantly hitting my shoulder GRRRRRRR as you got mud all over my jacket grrrrr


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comenting on he above coment! agreed.
stupid couse. even though i wasnt there i have seen course designs and pics from people who did go.
cannot belive the complete ignorance! :O
 
I think ollie did very well, and rode and attacked the course, which is maybe where some people when wrong? After all they were very big fences and that is how they would be ridden on an xc course. Maybe some people were to carefull which is maybe one of the reasons why there were so many problems?
 
Nothing constructive/informative to say but I am reeling from the shock of hearing about Cavalier. I saw him at YHL a few weeks ago doing a demo and Mary made a silly error with him there. She was jumping him over rickety, rough, nailed together pallets (and advocating everyone should try the two pallets propped up in a V as they made a good jump!) and pushing him to do ever less strides till finally, yup, he hit them, smashed them and was lucky not to hurt himself. Sorry, Mary but I am so angry. What a lovely, generous, willing horse he was.
 
Yes TPT and Jodie Kidd did a 'celeb jump off' which was not actually timed but to be judged on style. It was the same sj course as the main comp but only about 90cm-1m high. Jodie jumped round and had about 3 down, Tara jumped 1-3 ok then slipped badly coming round to 4 then slid through 4 itself (she wanted to retire after first slip but David Broome basically forced her to continue) and then she stopped after 4 getting off and retiring and good on her. Apparently neither of Jodie's or Tara's horses were studded up which explains them slipping badly.
 
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Yes TPT and Jodie Kidd did a 'celeb jump off' which was not actually timed but to be judged on style. It was the same sj course as the main comp but only about 90cm-1m high. Jodie jumped round and had about 3 down, Tara jumped 1-3 ok then slipped badly coming round to 4 then slid through 4 itself (she wanted to retire after first slip but David Broome basically forced her to continue) and then she stopped after 4 getting off and retiring and good on her. Apparently neither of Jodie's or Tara's horses were studded up which explains them slipping badly.

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just shows how ignorant some people are!! i mean i wouldnt jump my horse on grass unless she was studded! its rediculous!
 
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Nothing constructive/informative to say but I am reeling from the shock of hearing about Cavalier. I saw him at YHL a few weeks ago doing a demo and Mary made a silly error with him there. She was jumping him over rickety, rough, nailed together pallets (and advocating everyone should try the two pallets propped up in a V as they made a good jump!) and pushing him to do ever less strides till finally, yup, he hit them, smashed them and was lucky not to hurt himself. Sorry, Mary but I am so angry. What a lovely, generous, willing horse he was.

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Mary rode beautifully today . IMHO it was a freak accident , she rode well respecting every fence not trying to take out strides to chase the time . She rode him to that fence better than alot of the other riders . It was just a tragic accident .

eta - Sorry if I have misinterpreted your reply
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Nothing constructive/informative to say but I am reeling from the shock of hearing about Cavalier. I saw him at YHL a few weeks ago doing a demo and Mary made a silly error with him there. She was jumping him over rickety, rough, nailed together pallets (and advocating everyone should try the two pallets propped up in a V as they made a good jump!) and pushing him to do ever less strides till finally, yup, he hit them, smashed them and was lucky not to hurt himself. Sorry, Mary but I am so angry. What a lovely, generous, willing horse he was.

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If anyone else can back this up, I"ll start to believe it. Until then, I'll take it with a pinch of salt as it just doesn't sound like her
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Nothing constructive/informative to say but I am reeling from the shock of hearing about Cavalier. I saw him at YHL a few weeks ago doing a demo and Mary made a silly error with him there. She was jumping him over rickety, rough, nailed together pallets (and advocating everyone should try the two pallets propped up in a V as they made a good jump!) and pushing him to do ever less strides till finally, yup, he hit them, smashed them and was lucky not to hurt himself. Sorry, Mary but I am so angry. What a lovely, generous, willing horse he was.

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I can't comment to YHL but from watching it today I would struggle to blame Mary, instead I would blame the course designer. The striding through the corners was bad. On a smaller horse you could hold a bit more for an extra stride and still get the distance over the jumps themsevles but on a long striding horse like Cavy you had to ride forward for the longer stride. Mary lined up the first corner ensuring he didn't glance off (like several did) then pushed on for the longer stride to the second which she just couldn't get to causing Cavy being very genuine and taking off but semi banking/jumping flat and then falling trailing his hind. I can picture exactly what happened still in far too graphic detail and I would stuggle to say she could had ridden it different.

I would just ask that if you were not there to watch what happened that you don't comment on who's fault it may/maynot be. Mary and all connections will obviously be distraught beyond belief and if any happen to read this forum (which I bet you some do) I would hate them to see such comments which could be very much read as to blame M. End of day its a tradegy for all concerned and indeed RIP Cavy who was a most brave and wonderful horse.
 
I can't comment to YHL but from watching it today I would struggle to blame Mary, instead I would blame the course designer. The striding through the corners was bad. On a smaller horse you could hold a bit more for an extra stride and still get the distance over the jumps themsevles but on a long striding horse like Cavy you had to ride forward for the longer stride. Mary lined up the first corner ensuring he didn't glance off (like several did) then pushed on for the longer stride to the second which she just couldn't get to causing Cavy being very genuine and taking off but semi banking/jumping flat and then falling trailing his hind. I can picture exactly what happened still in far too graphic detail and I would stuggle to say she could had ridden it different.

I would just ask that if you were not there to watch what happened that you don't comment on who's fault it may/maynot be. Mary and all connections will obviously be distraught beyond belief and if any happen to read this forum (which I bet you some do) I would hate them to see such comments which could be very much read as to blame M. End of day its a tradegy for all concerned and indeed RIP Cavy who was a most brave and wonderful horse.

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Couldnt have said it better myself tbh!
 
I am sorry but I still do not think that it is right to put a horse with a broken leg into a trailer[ if the end is know, which this was]. I have also held horses with broken legs waiting to be pts but I kept them as still as possible . As for comparing breaking your arm with a broken leg is stupid, try doing a hand stand with a broken arm!
I have spoken to someone who was there and they said it was terrible. The horse whinnied, everyone was crying, I hope they never do this again, it is a dangerous sport , we all know that , but lets respect our horses or do we want the Grand National indoors as well!
 
I was there and agree with Santa that Mary couldn't have done anything different. Cavvy was the only other horse apart from Lenamore to Show Jump clear. He went around the XC part beautifully, there were no dodgy monments and he was one of the best to jump round. The fall was just bizarre. He jumped the first part perfect and then dived right at the second, which when you looked at the fence was a strange thing to do as the right hand side was covered in plastic on the ground. He slithered across the top and fell on the other side. It was horrible and very sad and a freak accident.
 
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Nothing constructive/informative to say but I am reeling from the shock of hearing about Cavalier. I saw him at YHL a few weeks ago doing a demo and Mary made a silly error with him there. She was jumping him over rickety, rough, nailed together pallets (and advocating everyone should try the two pallets propped up in a V as they made a good jump!) and pushing him to do ever less strides till finally, yup, he hit them, smashed them and was lucky not to hurt himself. Sorry, Mary but I am so angry. What a lovely, generous, willing horse he was.

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Blimey, that's a bit bloody harsh...
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OK...where did they go wrong...venue....poor signage...as for all the tv advertising saying there would be Xmas shopping...I had put off buying a new riding hat after dropping mine last week...no sign of any riding hat, but hey if you want and Albion saddle/bridle...pink spotty wellies for your 2 year old...quids in, so off browsing shops for suitable repacement. Not enough food stands were open...Queued for an hour...was told we could go outside by a steward...but hey...where??? I'm not from Cardiff!!!! And shouted as much from the middle of the queue only to be told by people coming from the front that there wasn't much left to eat anyway. And how hellishly cold!!!!!! Couldn't believe WFP didn't have some sort of rug on his horse for the presentation. The dressage was good, although I'm not sure about the choice of Arlene Phillips. I know ALW has horses, my mate works for him...he has ALOT of horses. Arlene's comments were on the whole quite vacuous and I did wonder why she hadn't gone blonde (sorry blondes, but you get my jist). The SJ challenged them, it was a 1.3m course all way round. ANd yes probably a little too big for the space, but then how many people actually have a rugby pitch sized indoor school I wonder. It looked very crowded with jumps but some of the gallops were from one end of the pitch to the other. When the first rider fell at the 4th fence, we all had hearts in our mouth and we were willing them to get around. The crowd, far from being unenthusiastic, actually began to help the riders out when they went the wrong way....Clayton got a very loud no....when he started going wrong and not heading toward the trakhener, there after every rider who was of direction got it. Oli very nearly went wrong coming back to the bank, but fair play to him, he rode like his life depended on it. Mary King...she was doing the most fantastic round up to the wooden corners. He tok the first a bit to the right and was really right and it looked like she was going to mis the flag but it fell to the right and then so did they. He went over the jum and just kept going down. Mary was thrown out to the right and was lucky not to get rolled on. My friends and I were sat with our hearts in our mouths, such a huge downer after Oli's round. Fairly play to Bettina for retiring, her horse had nearly all the SJ down, so I guess she felt it was just not right to face him with XC phase as well.

EE got ALOT wrong. But they also got some right. The horses are not used to stadium jumping such as they have for show jumping in Europe and America, and doing a SJ course with a bare minute's break if their rider gets in a tiss doing their clothing change, and off out to XC with show jumps dotted around as well...difficult for them. I still think the flags should be replaced with some sort of rubber composite, so they bend. These palstic fall off things can still break and impale.

Lots of lessons to be learned...need a bigger pitch and a proper surface for starters. The cost for the first of these has been too high, but it is a risk that every eventer takes everytime they go out on a XC course. Personally I owuldn't do it, although I am tempted to have a go at jumpcross. Just to have a go mind.
 
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I am sorry but I still do not think that it is right to put a horse with a broken leg into a trailer[ if the end is know, which this was]. I have also held horses with broken legs waiting to be pts but I kept them as still as possible . As for comparing breaking your arm with a broken leg is stupid, try doing a hand stand with a broken arm!
I have spoken to someone who was there and they said it was terrible. The horse whinnied, everyone was crying, I hope they never do this again, it is a dangerous sport , we all know that , but lets respect our horses or do we want the Grand National indoors as well!

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you know i do agree, but im no comparing it to a broken arm at all. i am trying to say that she should have been pts right there and then screw the audience if a horse is in alot of pain, then its the best thing to do.
 
As said above there were just too many questions in a small space, what were all those corners for, if that was burgley or badminton you expect more than 50% to come home after x-c, I was just getting so frustrated!!!

And at YHL mary said that her and cavvy had made a bit of a mistake and then she gave us a lovely demonstration of what a fab horse and rider team they made, I soooo upset so you can imagine what mary and the horses owner are going through XXX
 
Thanks, I thought you might be cross with me but I should have known , we all love our horses. After speaking to someone there it has made me so cross that he was travelled and whinnying[sp]
 
I was there. Thought the going looked ghastly,like a greasy ice rink...everyone bar Oli was tentative. For 6 horses out of 20 to finish says it all and I am afraid a fatality makes it tragic and sickening event. Like everyone else, my heart goes out to poor Mary...
The heart of the problem was the money....it turned the whole thing into a circus.I think that some riders and owners would have balked at running their invaluable horses over that course on that ground if there had not been so much pressure to make the event a success/entertain all of us/take a shot at the huge prize money. The string of elinantions and the evident unease of most of the horses( Lenamore and Flint Curtis/ Shaabrak being notable exceptions)made me begin to feel that I was In Ancient Rome's coliseum rather than a sprting arena and the truly harrowing sight of a gorgeous horse surrounded by blue plastic, patently a fatality on waiting put the nail in EE for me(for what that's worth). to 'distract' us, the commentator started trying to jolly things up by reminding us that soemone would be going home with a big fat cheque.Oli Townend was just below us, looking as if that cheque might stick in his throat, as he watched teh screens go up and then helped the ambulance extract itself( with difficulty) from the arena. Everyone, I am sure, felt desperate at the sight...and maybe many, like me, felt a real sense of moral discomfort that a noble animal had been broken in the course of an 'entertainment'. Yes, horses get killed eventing....but this was not eventing. It was closer to stunt or circus riding, in my view.
And to bat on, much of the commentary was, imo, inappropriate and crass..(>>"the event has claimed some scalps.." just after Cavvy's tragedy was just one instance.
Good on Bettina for pulling out after the show jumping. 14 horses were ritually humiliated. some of them may have lost confidence, If I was lucky enough to own a top horse, i would not risk him in this format which does not play to his natural strengths and ability to gallop and jump...
Not a good day.
 
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Thanks, I thought you might be cross with me but I should have known , we all love our horses. After speaking to someone there it has made me so cross that he was travelled and whinnying[sp]

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not "whinnying" ...he called out once...after he got up....

i very much doubt, with adrenellin flowing, that he actually flet much pain.

and you really cannot compere a bi-ped to a quadraped....
 
Oldred this is not the time or the place to post such things, especially not this evening. I wouldn't be surprised if Mary King's daughter doesn't come on here and the comments you have made would really upset her.
I would think having seen Mary compete many times locally at some of the same competitions we do, she will be blaming no-one but herself tonight , she will feel bad enough.
I wasn't there but reading the comments of those who were, the person to blame is the course designer not the riders. They should have taken into account the greasy ground and adjusted their fences beforehand.
Though without being there, it's not for me or you to blame anybody is it?
 
I think EE has a lot to learn from today, even without the tragedy which happened, but I personally dont believe that it was all a "shambles"

The dressage was good, I enjoyed it, I wanted to deck Arlene Phillips but then the competition was designed to appeal to a wider audience than pure horsey people so maybe she would have struck a chord with others.

The surface was absolutely bloody awful from the start, for some reason I thought the turf would be a really nice surface but it was terrible.

The bank was not a good idea, and the fact that the corner disintegrated like it did made me feel very
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There was no attempt made to improve take-offs and landings, pretty much every horse slipped on approaching fence 6 and they did nothing about it.

There were too many XC fences giving too many questions for the horses - Lucinda Green made some comment about a lot of questions in a short space of time, as did Mark Todd, and there were just too many questions for my liking.

If they can sort out a decent surface next time, and reduce the XC questions, then it would be a better competition IMHO. Also agree with Spotted Cats comment that the riders didnt have long enough to walk the course - the number of errors of course showed that very clearly.
 
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