Where do I stand? Serious help needed please.

jadelovescassie

jadelovescassie

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Hello, if you read this and take the time to help me, then thank you. Panic has now set in!

I posted about this issue a few months ago but did not think it would go this far. Long story short, I have a horse on loan who has had various vet treatments for laminitis and abscesses over the last 4 months. Her owner is legally responsible as of our loan agreement for insuring the horse and covering any excess vets fees as a result of claims made. She failed to insure the horse, without our knowledge obviously, therefore couldn't make any claims (We have now insured the horse ourselves). So we said, she should be paying any vets bills that aren't routine (regardless of insurance or not as this is what is on our loan agreement basically). She ignored/avoided any emails and messages but eventually started to co-operate and said she would contact the vets. Unsurprisingly she has not, nor have the vets been able to get in contact with her despite trying several times. The vets are obviously now getting fed up and demanding payment, which is stressing me out completely as I am unable to pay this - as a student with about 2p in my bank! As a last resort my family may pay the bills for it but we will have to get it back off the owner, and she is very difficult to get a single penny out of. The bill is well over £1000 and is rising each month it is left unpaid. I didn't want to go down the legal route but feel we may have no choice. I really don't know what to do???? I have absolutely no experience or knowledge with this situation.

(I must mention that sending the horse back is not really an option, foolish as people may think this is, she is my rock and I just can't do that, regardless of how crap her owner may be.)
 
i don't have any advice, but just wanted to say how lovely it is that you want to keep and care for the horse, good luck.
 
See if you can get some legal advice. Citizen's advice might help.

Sound like the owner is seriously skint though. One possibility if family would help is to work out what she's worth, knock the vets bill off and offer that to the owner for her. It sounds like you're not going to want to give her back.

Paula
 
Could you speak to the owner and say you will pay the vets bill if she gives you ownership of the horse?? Maybe speak to the vets and see if you could pay in installments. Vets can be underrstanding for large vet bills.
 
Paulag said:
See if you can get some legal advice. Citizen's advice might help.

Sound like the owner is seriously skint though. One possibility if family would help is to work out what she's worth, knock the vets bill off and offer that to the owner for her. It sounds like you're not going to want to give her back.

Paula
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sounds like a good option for you, if you're in the position to buy.
 
Sorry haven't got any legal advice, best leave that to the experts but what I would say is it looks to me like she has you over a barrel. I understand it is in the loan agreement but if you start any legal action, she may decide to take her back. It is one of the draw backs of loaning, the horse you love belongs to someone else, I would say you are in a very tricky position.
I do hope you get this resolved amicably. Could you go and visit the owner, maybe your parents would help to talk her round?
 
Contact CAB or BHS legal helpline. They will give good advice about getting the money back but I think as you called the vet you will have to pay their bill.
Good luck! You sound much more concerned for the horse than the owner does.
 
I appreciate your replies, the only issue with that is, as a 16 year old horse, who is so prone to laminitis (has had 3 attacks in the last year) and has also had 2 abscesses recently, I'm not sure she is really worth much! (Well to me she is but not in terms of money!!). I am also pretty sure the owner would not want to take her back as I do not see how she can afford a horse/would struggle to loan out a horse with so many recent health issues! Which puts me at a bit of an advantage...I did get on with her owner but I am utterly fed up now :( it is beyond a joke and I'm sick of being nice to her about the situation!
 
i would offer a nominal sum to purchase said horse (and pay the vet bill) or return horse. doesnt sound like she wants horse back anyway, though sorry she could counter return saying laminitis was caused by a management issue. rock and hard place springs to mind
 
Was the horse fully in your care when she got laminitis? As any loans I have done states that if the horse is in their care then they have to pay vet bills? Is she perhaps thinking this is the case even if the contract says otherwise? Does the contract state that the owner has to pay all vet bills?
 
shortstuff99 said:
Was the horse fully in your care when she got laminitis? As any loans I have done states that if the horse is in their care then they have to pay vet bills? Is she perhaps thinking this is the case even if the contract says otherwise? Does the contract state that the owner has to pay all vet bills?
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No the owner told the loaner that she was insuring the horse to cover vets fees but hadnt. If the loaner had known she would have insured the horse herself.
 
Yes she was fully in my care, but she is very prone as she has had it in the past several times and I literally could not have done more to prevent her getting it. We have paid all previous vets bills for anything, routine or not, even though as of loan agreement we shouldn't have had to. Loan agreement states 'The owner is responsible for keeping the horse and all equipment supplied and detailed in this agreement insured' and also says 'Any excess costs due to insurance claims are to be met by the owner.' Surely as she failed to insure the horse, which if she had we could have claimed against and avoided the situation (they may not have funded laminitis bills but would have for abscesses) that this is enough alone to see she should have to pay it? She has accepted the fact that she is meant to pay it, as she has not argued or disagreed when I've stated it, but she is ignoring the fact that she is actually expected to pay it and I'm not just saying it.
 
I think you need some serious legal advice. With the contract you had in place, and especially given that you do not own the horse, then I think it is possible that this vet bill is not your responsibility and that the vets need to pursue the owner, not you.

As far as I can see, the treatment was done for the owner, not for you, given that she is contracted to pay any bills that arise. You were only in the position of a Yard Manager is when they call a vet for a client's horse. The bill does not go to the YO, it goes to the owner of the horse.

I'm sorry for the Vet, but they have more resources to recover this debt than you, and the owner will probably take more notice of them than of you in any case.



ps if she is the pony in the signature, I hope you have reduced her weight now that you know that she is laminitis prone?
 
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As I see it the vets should be sending a bills to the owner as the debt is between her and them and nothing to do with you, it's up to them to resolve the situation. I would write to them pointing this out and requesting that they send any correspondence to her. Hope you get this resolved!
 
I do agree that the vets should be sending it to her, have discussed this with them but as they say she is not their client, they apparently cannot invoice someone who is not their client. They have said the invoice remains my responsibility if the owner won't pay up. I do completely see their point, but as pointed out yes the owner is much more likely to take notice of them rather than a 19 year old girl, lets be honest!
 
You could take her to the small claims court - a relatively simple process. You need to fill out a claim form (N1) http://hmctscourtfinder.justice.gov.uk/HMCTS/GetForm.do?court_forms_id=338
and then take it to your local county court, along with the fee. The CAB can help you fill this out. When she recives this she has 14 days to dispute the claim, acknowledge and pay the full amount or send an acknowledgement of service form which then gives her another 14 days to dispute this. If she does none of the above she will be ordered to pay the full costs by order of default.

However courts are keen to see people using ADR rather than jumping straight in to litigation as it can be a long and expensive process. You could ask a solicitor to draft up a letter telling her to pay the full amount or you will take her to court, or the CAB may be able to do this for you. You could also ring the BHS legal helpline for legal advice.

If it was me I would ring the BHS helpline, and see what they advise or alternatively get a solicitor to write up a letter for you. However you say she can't afford a horse so how likely are you to get your money back? If I would give the option of you paying her vets bills after you have bought her for a nominal fee (say £1) OR returning her. Likelyhood is she'll choose the first option and your pony can be all yours :)
 
jadelovescassie said:
I do agree that the vets should be sending it to her, have discussed this with them but as they say she is not their client, they apparently cannot invoice someone who is not their client. They have said the invoice remains my responsibility if the owner won't pay up. I do completely see their point, but as pointed out yes the owner is much more likely to take notice of them rather than a 19 year old girl, lets be honest!
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Point out to them that she is their client. They treated her horse. If the horse had died it would have been her loss. If the treatment had been negligent and the horse had been harmed it is only her who could have sued them, because the loss would have been hers, not yours. I suggest that you send the Vet a copy of the contract, and point this out.

Everyone who is suggesting a Small Claim, the poster can't do this, because first she would have to pay the Vet and she hasn't got the £1,000. She can't sue for money she hasn't paid out and if she tries I suspect the case might fail on the basis that the money is not owed to her in any case, it's owed to the vet.
 
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PeterNatt said:
One point is that if the horse has previously suffered from Laminitis then Laminitis would be excluded by the insurers.
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This was my immediate thought. Also the horse is 19 years old.
The other obvious thing is that laminitis is at least somewhat preventable (not entirely I know) and if the horse was in your care does the owner feel you did absolutely everything in your power to prevent it?
As for the contract with the vet - she did not call the vet - you did so I am pretty sure that by calling the vet and agreeing to treatment the contract is between you and the vet. The only way it is between her and the vet is if she agreed for treatment or if she called the vet. Is it a different vet to the one she might have used in the past?

Owners do sometimes take horses back that they cannot afford even if it is out of spite:( so do be careful if you want to keep her. As for her not being worth the vets bills ...... that has been true of all my horses at some point but I have still paid them as it is not about value it is about needs and care. Can either of you afford to PTS if needed:confused:
 
You must get proper legal advice. Unfortunately your contract doesn't say anything about liability for vet bills - only for having insurance, which probably wouldn't apply in this case as it's recurring, and for paying the excess, which only applies when the insurance kicks in. In the absence of a clear note in the contract I would think you are liable for vet costs after engaging the vet, and the fact that you have previously engaged and paid for the vet yourself might be taken as a clear indication that you have accepted financial responsibility for vet bills. If you can't let her go, see if you can buy her and then settle the bill, but if this is ongoing you should make sure you can also afford additional vet bills in the future before you take her on. The priorities need to be seeing the horse right and paying the vet, who has provided a service in good faith - and whom you might need in future! Good luck, and I hope the mare is coming along well :)
 
I am slightly concerned that if you so not pay your vets bill hat you may end up with problems with your credit rating longer term - it really does need paying. Please get advice on this. Also if you need a vet in an emergency they may refuse to come out - although you may be able to pay up front. Please get some advice on this, but get that bill paid if it is in your name.

Paula
 
jadelovescassie said:
Yes she was fully in my care, but she is very prone as she has had it in the past several times and I literally could not have done more to prevent her getting it. We have paid all previous vets bills for anything, routine or not, even though as of loan agreement we shouldn't have had to. Loan agreement states 'The owner is responsible for keeping the horse and all equipment supplied and detailed in this agreement insured' and also says 'Any excess costs due to insurance claims are to be met by the owner.' Surely as she failed to insure the horse, which if she had we could have claimed against and avoided the situation (they may not have funded laminitis bills but would have for abscesses) that this is enough alone to see she should have to pay it? She has accepted the fact that she is meant to pay it, as she has not argued or disagreed when I've stated it, but she is ignoring the fact that she is actually expected to pay it and I'm not just saying it.
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If the horse has previously had laminitis - insured or not you would NOT be covered for it as it is a pre-existing condition. So I would forget about the insurannce angle. That is pointless anyway.

Sounds like the owner cannot afford the vet bills. Could you not go halves?
 
I agree with misst, although the owner was wrong in not insuring, the laminitis wouldn't have been covered anyway.

And before calling the vet, you should of sought the owners permission if she was to be the one to foot all the bills. If she was uncontactable then personally I would of been prepared to pay the bills myself.

Plus laminitis and foot abcesses can be preventable so who is to say these vet bills are not down to poor stable management so in which case why should the owner accept the bill?
 
As a completely separate issue, can I suggest the horse is tested for Cushings and EMS if not already done so.
Any equine that prone to laminitis may have either, and whilst proper treatment / medication may not be chreap, it would be a lot less than repeat visits from the vets dealing with a full blown attack of Laminitis.
I'm afraid I think you need to get the bill paid, and then take the owner through the small claims court. Purely to ensure you have vet care in an emergency.
Genuinely hope you get resolution soon.
 
I really think this going no where if your loan agreement said the owner was responsible for the paying the insurance and she has not paid it then that is grounds to return the horse but unless it says she is responsible for the vets costs I can't see how you can claim against her bacuse as the horse has had repeated bouts of laminitis in the past it will not be possible for it to have cover for any conditions related to laminitis .
 
Right, so much to clear up. Horse is 16, not 19. As for having 2p in my bank - that was obviously not a serious comment I was basically saying I don't have much money. Yes we could afford to PTS if we had to. Yes some of you may say it is my fault that she had laminitis/abscesses, at the end of the day so many horses get those conditions in the snap of a finger, you really can do all you can to prevent and they may still get it. Unless you've had a horse with laminitis or is very prone to it then it's ignorant to judge on that part. I have already said I know the insurance probably wouldn't cover laminitis but may have covered the abscesses, which was actually the main issue rather than the laminitis itself. Horse is now healthy and just come back into work... have done nothing but work my arse off to look after her for the last 4 months whilst she's been poorly.

Yep I called the vet but have informed her and kept her informed every single time I have done this and she has accepted, did not turn around and say 'No don't call the vet' so surely there is permission there. She has lied to me and said she will phone the insurance company to see if they will foot the bill...which now we obviously know there was no insurance company. I have even suggested to her going halves but she ignores me just as much as if I ask her to pay the whole bill. Her owner has been to see the horse once in 5yrs and lives about an hour away which I think is a pretty good indication itself on her care in the matter.

At the end of the day my family will probably pay the bill now because they're not going to want the vets trying to take US to court. But that isn't what I want because it's not fair on them and I know it is going to cause a big issue, in which they will probably tell me to get rid of the horse anyway (they aren't and have never been horsey people). I know a lot of people will say I'm stupid for keeping the horse and people have said it to me... Some people just see their horses as their horses, and that's fine for some!! Maybe I'm not realistic :rolleyes: but the horse is NOT going back/to anyone else...and I don't think the owner would do that anyway from knowing her.
 
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