Where do I stand? Serious help needed please.

If you do end up settling the bill contact the owner to say you have done that and ask either for the horse as part payment or something in writing clearing up what happens next time (assuming lami and it's complications are excluded from your own policy)
 
I hope you don't mind but what did you do to prevent the laminitis? 3 times in a year is pretty excessive if you know that she has an existing problem.

If you have a horse out on loan then they could take her back and state poor care which would be supported by your vets bills.
 
horseloaner said:
I hope you don't mind but what did you do to prevent the laminitis? 3 times in a year is pretty excessive if you know that she has an existing problem.

If you have a horse out on loan then they could take her back and state poor care which would be supported by your vets bills.
Click to expand...

She got it was last December, even the vet could not really determine a cause. There was no frost on the ground at the time of the attack and she was only having soaked hay at night when she was coming in and no hard feed. She has since I got her been very difficult to keep weight off and she came to me overweight, she is now at a very healthy weight!

The second time she got it was only a touch, caught it very early and only had her in for a few days. The conclusion for this was that we had just moved yards and there was obviously a change in grass sugar levels for her - she was on restricted, with a muzzle and managed to get her muzzle off one night.

There was not a third time, my mistake sorry. I suspected it was laminitis at first but it was abscess instead.

She wears a muzzle most of the time (depending on time of year), unless she is on a very small restricted field and then she does not need to like she is at the moment! She only gets a handful of happy hoof to get her hoof supplements/laminaze supplement in and will get speedi beet too if she is in more work and I think she needs it. When she comes into the stable, she has soaked hay. Her feet are picked out and disinfected to prevent anything getting in where the previous bouts of laminitis have affected her hooves, and now wears natural balance to support her feet. That is what I do to prevent laminitis.
 
jadelovescassie said:
Right, so much to clear up. Horse is 16, not 19. As for having 2p in my bank - that was obviously not a serious comment I was basically saying I don't have much money. Yes we could afford to PTS if we had to. Yes some of you may say it is my fault that she had laminitis/abscesses, at the end of the day so many horses get those conditions in the snap of a finger, you really can do all you can to prevent and they may still get it. Unless you've had a horse with laminitis or is very prone to it then it's ignorant to judge on that part. I have already said I know the insurance probably wouldn't cover laminitis but may have covered the abscesses, which was actually the main issue rather than the laminitis itself. Horse is now healthy and just come back into work... have done nothing but work my arse off to look after her for the last 4 months whilst she's been poorly.

Yep I called the vet but have informed her and kept her informed every single time I have done this and she has accepted, did not turn around and say 'No don't call the vet' so surely there is permission there. She has lied to me and said she will phone the insurance company to see if they will foot the bill...which now we obviously know there was no insurance company. I have even suggested to her going halves but she ignores me just as much as if I ask her to pay the whole bill. Her owner has been to see the horse once in 5yrs and lives about an hour away which I think is a pretty good indication itself on her care in the matter.

At the end of the day my family will probably pay the bill now because they're not going to want the vets trying to take US to court. But that isn't what I want because it's not fair on them and I know it is going to cause a big issue, in which they will probably tell me to get rid of the horse anyway (they aren't and have never been horsey people). I know a lot of people will say I'm stupid for keeping the horse and people have said it to me... Some people just see their horses as their horses, and that's fine for some!! Maybe I'm not realistic :rolleyes: but the horse is NOT going back/to anyone else...and I don't think the owner would do that anyway from knowing her.
Click to expand...

As you seem very determined to keep the horse then why don't you offer to pay the bill and assume ownership of the horse ( of course you would have to have a paper trail that's stated that this what happened ) the only way you can say this horse is NOT going back is to buy it it's not yours you can't stop the owner taking it away if she where to chose to do so.
 
I am no legal expert, but from the way I am reading your posts, the owner is broke.

She cant afford the horse, cant afford the vets fees and probably didn't insure because she couldn't afford it.

Chasing her through the small claims court etc etc is likely to get you no-where as she probably doesn't have the money to pay it.

If you want to keep the horse, do what has been previously suggested, offer to pay the bill if she sells the horse to you for 1p. In addition see if you can get a contribution towards the bill, even if she sends you a bit monthly. That would seem fair if the horse is not worth the vet bill amount.

Speak to the vet and see if you can come up with a payment plan, so you can pay the bills, not have to ask your family.

The horse is probably not worth that much to anyone else, but sounds like it is to you.
 
If you do settle the bill - and it looks like you are going to have to - at least get ownership of the horse in exchnage.

Once you have paid the bill then you do assume the right to seek redress through the samll claims court as long as the amount is less than £5,000. But do be aware that she may simply not defend the claim and then not pay. As a private individual you have littel or not way of enforceing that debt without going through county court which requires the use of solicitors.

If you are a BHS memebr do give thier legal advice helpline a call.
 
I hadn't realised you had had her for five years - sorry, I was under the impression it was much shorter than that.

In general terms, I think a long-term loaner could only reasonably except an owner to contribute to conditions like kissing spine or sarcoids, where there could have been no previous knowledge and it was in no way preventable. A condition like laminitis - and I do take your point that it is difficult :) - is still related to the care the horse receives so I don't think the owner should be expected to contribute, especially if the horses has been in your care for so long.
 
There's no point chasing through the court, the owner still won't pay if she has no money, its just pointless hassle and stress for you.

If you pay the vet bill there's nothing to stop the owner taking the horse back at any minute. You'd be 1000 pounds down and no horse to show for it. Buy the horse then pay the vet, if you want to keep it.

You now know the situation with the owner (as in, she won't pay) so I think any further vet bills should be your responsibility. You can't keep calling the vet out knowing owner won't pay and you don't want to, I can well understand the vets being cross.

The pony clearly has health problems, possibly ongoing, and as such I wouldn't be paying 1000 pounds for her. I'd give her back to the owner, who will have to PTS, and refuse to pay the vet bill yourself.

Even if you keep the pony, you say you don't have much money and are studying. Chronic laminitics are not necessarily cheap or easy to keep. You may end up in a situation a year or so from now where you're having to PTS for financial reasons anyway, or because you have to rehome due to studies and can't find anyone to take a chronic laminitic. Save yourself the additional heartbreak and the financial millstone round your neck, by removing yourself from this situation now.
 
You need to buy horse so you now have full control over her, at the moment the owner could take her back or sell her on at any time.

Then, only after you have bought her, should you pay the vets bill.

As the vets bill was incurred when she was on loan to you and it was the owners responsibility to pay it you could try and get your money back through small claims court, however it sounds like she's broke so realistically you are quite unlikely to get it back though they could set up a payment plan I suppose.
 
I posted without reading the thread and now that I have, I have several more points to add.

1) You seem to think you have the upper hand in this situation, how?

The owner has a horse that she doesn't want but

a) doesn't have to PTS, because
b) someone else (ie you) is paying for the horses daily care.
c) she has a huge vet bill that nobody can make her pay if she doesn't have the money.

You don't have the upper hand here, the owner does.

2) Yes the owner agreed to you calling the vet, but from what you've said here, you didn't make it clear you expected her to pay. She possibly thought you were simply informing her of what you intended to do, or were asking permission simply to have a vet attend. Since you've paid vet bills in the past she possibly assumed you'd pay this one too.

The owner hasn't denied responsibility for vet bills, but staying silent on the subject doesn't mean she agrees with you either. Your loan contract says owner insures horse and pays insurance excess, it doesn't say what happens to conditions not covered by insurance.

Loan agreements are not generally legal documents anyway and this one is possibly void because you didn't send the horse back when you realised owner had broken the terms. Legally this may be seen as you accepting the new terms.

Given the above, I'm not convinced you'd win even if you took her to court. As others have said, you'd have to pay the vet bill first to chase her anyway. She could then not pay, even if you win.

3) The main issue seems to be that you don't want to pay the vet bill under any circumstances, even if you can use it to try to make the owner sell you the pony for peanuts. In that case, I think you'd be better off letting the vet take you to court. Your defence being that its not your bill to pay. If you lose the court case and have to pay up, you're in no worse position than you're in now.
 
if the loaner called the vet, the vet is obligated to the loaner NOT the owner , therfore its the loaner that needs to pay the bill (in the vets opinion). Loaners are owners in vets eyes, and sometimes in laws eyes as well.

It all depeneds on the EXACT wording and explicitness of contract. What might seem very obvious to someone may actualy be argued in court. 'The owner is responsible for keeping the horse and all equipment supplied and detailed in this agreement insured' This could just mean to cover third party it makes no mention of vet fees, hence she wouldnt be in breach of contract and loaner would therfore be liable .... see?

if you cant afford these fees, you shouldnt take the horse on in leiu of vet fees, no matter how little you pay to purchase her. No insurance will touch her now and it will only get worse. Hope you get it sorted.
 
will get speedi beet too if she is in more work and I think she needs it.
Click to expand...

Eek! :eek:

You should not be giving a chronic laminitic speedi beet, no matter what.
My pony is 14.2, he is ridden (schooled- very rarely hacked!) 5 times a week and he only has two largeish haynets (no haylage!!) with 3/4 hours turnout in a small paddock and a handful of Baileys High Fibre Mix so that I can feed him his supplements.
He has lived like this all through summer and winter and he has never once needed something so sugary, personally if I was the owner I would be concerned about the speedi beet. Don't forget that speedi beet is sugar beet that soaks quicker, and you should know that a laminitic horse should not have anything sugary. It's called sugar beet for a reason :rolleyes:
Sounds to me like you need to restrict her grazing- have her in a small paddock at ALL times and only turnout for 3/4 hours a day.

if she is the pony in the signature, I hope you have reduced her weight now that you know that she is laminitis prone?
Click to expand...

This. She is overweight in the pictures, if I was the owner I wouldn't be happy with your management of my laminitic horse.

I think that you need to cut down the amount of grass, cut out any and all sugary food and get riding her more.

My pony is a native crossbreed and lives off fresh air, he gains 5lbs by so much as looking at an apple. Is this an excuse for him to be overweight? No.
He got a bit chubby earlier this summer when the grass shot through, so he went on a diet and is fine again now.
I've owned 2 'laminitic' horses and funnily enough none of them ever had lami when in my care. :rolleyes:
 
LollyDolly said:
Eek! :eek:

You should not be giving a chronic laminitic speedi beet, no matter what.
Don't forget that speedi beet is sugar beet that soaks quicker, and you should know that a laminitic horse should not have anything sugary. It's called sugar beet for a reason :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

I'm sorry but I do have to disagree with this. Speedi beet is approved by the laminitis trust and specifically says 'It's starch free and low in sugar, so an ideal feed for horses prone to Laminitis and we're proud to have achieved Laminitis Trust approval'. High in fibre. As mentioned she only gets this if I feel she needs it and I will happily take a picture to prove she is at a normal and healthy weight if needed!

She has no sugary food (ok, you may argue that the speedi beet is). I have already described her management above and the 'reasons' for her getting laminitis in the first place...apart from her already being very prone to it when I got her. I do personally not see how I could be doing any more to prevent the laminitis...she is on a small restricted area already with two other ponies, and comes in a lot of the time anyway due to her sweet itch, where she will have a soaked haynet. It is great that your laminitic horses have not had an attack, but it is not the same for everyone unfortunately.
 
LollyDolly said:
Eek! :eek:

You should not be giving a chronic laminitic speedi beet, no matter what.
My pony is 14.2, he is ridden (schooled- very rarely hacked!) 5 times a week and he only has two largeish haynets (no haylage!!) with 3/4 hours turnout in a small paddock and a handful of Baileys High Fibre Mix so that I can feed him his supplements.
He has lived like this all through summer and winter and he has never once needed something so sugary, personally if I was the owner I would be concerned about the speedi beet. Don't forget that speedi beet is sugar beet that soaks quicker, and you should know that a laminitic horse should not have anything sugary. It's called sugar beet for a reason :rolleyes:
Click to expand...

Sugar beet is used to make the sugar that you stir into your tea. The stuff we use to feed horses is the by-product of that process, so by definition most of the sugar has already been taken out. As long as you use an unmolassed version (where molasses (sugar) has not been added back in) it is a great feed for laminitics.
 
As you called the vet their invoices are your responsibility to settle. It may be that you are legally entitled to reclaim this from the owner but this would be for you follow up. The veterinary surgeon should not be left with an unpaid debt on the basis that some third party may or may not be responsible for the invoice.

There are few other businesses who still provide such generous credit as equine vets- pay your bill, 4 months is too long to leave it.
 
lizstuguinness said:
if the loaner called the vet, the vet is obligated to the loaner NOT the owner , therfore its the loaner that needs to pay the bill (in the vets opinion). Loaners are owners in vets eyes, and sometimes in laws eyes as well.
.
Click to expand...

I don't think this is necessarily true. A yard owner calls the vet sometimes. The vet is not obligated to the yard owner and the yard owner does not pay the bill. The purpose of calling the vet is to keep the horse healthy/ save its life. The only person with a monetary stake in a successful outcome to that is the owner, not the loaner. So the duty of care, surely, is to the owner?

This exact situation must arise many times in racing stables, where the trainer has the authority to call a vet whenever he decides, but the fees are owed by the owner and the duty of care is to the owner, who the vet never meets and may even be a syndicate of 200 people. I don't see any difference between that and this case, myself. Have we got any equine lawyers on here who can tell us?
 
Last edited:
stranger1612 said:
As you called the vet their invoices are your responsibility to settle. It may be that you are legally entitled to reclaim this from the owner but this would be for you follow up. The veterinary surgeon should not be left with an unpaid debt on the basis that some third party may or may not be responsible for the invoice.

There are few other businesses who still provide such generous credit as equine vets- pay your bill, 4 months is too long to leave it.
Click to expand...

Do you believe that every yard owner who calls a vet for a clients horse should pay the bill if the client refuses? This person has a contract in place, just like a yard owner, saying that the debt is not hers. She could hardly have refused to call the vet, could she?
 
Most training establishments will have this specific issue addressed within their training agreement.

If you borrowed a friends bike and took it to a cycle repair shop but then refused to settle the invoice on the basis that "its not my bike send the bill to the owner" the shop would rightly chase you for the money as they have no hold on the owner.

The vet cannot chase the true owner of this horse for money. The OP should pay the vet.
 
cptrayes said:
Do you believe that every yard owner who calls a vet for a clients horse should pay the bill if the client refuses? This person has a contract in place, just like a yard owner, saying that the debt is not hers. She could hardly have refused to call the vet, could she?
Click to expand...

But it would depend on the contract is the contract said owner will be responsible for all vets bills that's simple but if it said owner will insure then it not so simple this horse has had repeated bouts of lamintis so it's very unlikely that the fact it's not insured is really relevant as the it would not be insured for the laminitis or the abscesses which the insurance company would say was related to the laminitis .
The fact that the owner was not insuring it would be a reason to end the loan and return the horse but OP is clear that's not what she wants to do.
I don't think it's in any way clear that OP would win if she took the owner to court.
 
stranger1612 said:
Most training establishments will have this specific issue addressed within their training agreement.

If you borrowed a friends bike and took it to a cycle repair shop but then refused to settle the invoice on the basis that "its not my bike send the bill to the owner" the shop would rightly chase you for the money as they have no hold on the owner.

The vet cannot chase the true owner of this horse for money. The OP should pay the vet.
Click to expand...

I think it's more complicated than the bike. The borrower of the bike has an option to take it to the shop for repair. The borrower of a horse has no such option if the horse needs a vet.
 
Goldenstar said:
But it would depend on the contract is the contract said owner will be responsible for all vets bills that's simple but if it said owner will insure then it not so simple this horse has had repeated bouts of lamintis so it's very unlikely that the fact it's not insured is really relevant as the it would not be insured for the laminitis or the abscesses which the insurance company would say was related to the laminitis .
The fact that the owner was not insuring it would be a reason to end the loan and return the horse but OP is clear that's not what she wants to do.
I don't think it's in any way clear that OP would win if she took the owner to court.
Click to expand...

This - completely.
I think OP has to decide to keep the horse and pay the bills or return the horse and argue over the bill. The owner has failed to insure as they should have done but I dont think theres any way the inc co would pay up for the lami/abcesses so it isnt really relevant.
 
cptrayes said:
Do you believe that every yard owner who calls a vet for a clients horse should pay the bill if the client refuses? This person has a contract in place, just like a yard owner, saying that the debt is not hers. She could hardly have refused to call the vet, could she?
Click to expand...

Essentially yes. Most well run establishments have this sort of issue dealt with in their contracts but the booking of a visit with a vet becomes a contract between the vet and the person who books the visit. If a third party (usually the owner) has no knowledge of the visit how can they be held responsible for the invoice?

Sadly we are often faced with unpaid invoice where the keeper of the animal has booked our visit and the owner denies they are responsible for the fees. Attempts to extract the money from the owner are largely unsuccessful as they usually come back with "I didn't even know you were coming, I wouldn't have called you for that etc". We have to chase the person who made the contact (booked the visit) otherwise we don't get paid!
 
So I'll ask again... Im breaking my own rule and going off topic
OP you clearly love your horse and are on the case, however please test for Cushings - my pony was tested showing no symptoms apart from getting footy even though he was restricted more and more each year. 16 yrs is not impossible to get it. Prascend has stopped my shettie getting footie now. You Lami attack in December suggests this could be a possibility.

In addition Test for EMS Equine Metabolic Syndrome - some of these horses are best managed on no grass at all and metformin, although I have no experience of this.
However, both conditions untreated can result in laminitic episodes no matter how careful you are.
I also think the absesses are a side effect of the lami.
Apologies if you've already done this, but if your horse tests positive it will make managing the laminitis easier.
In the meantime, hope you get the vet bill issues resolved
 
I'm sorry but I do have to disagree with this. Speedi beet is approved by the laminitis trust and specifically says 'It's starch free and low in sugar, so an ideal feed for horses prone to Laminitis and we're proud to have achieved Laminitis Trust approval'. High in fibre. As mentioned she only gets this if I feel she needs it and I will happily take a picture to prove she is at a normal and healthy weight if needed!
Click to expand...

No way? I honestly didn't know, then again I haven't seen a bag of Speedi Beet in over 4 years :o

In that case I take it back! :D
 
millimoo said:
So I'll ask again... Im breaking my own rule and going off topic
OP you clearly love your horse and are on the case, however please test for Cushings - my pony was tested showing no symptoms apart from getting footy even though he was restricted more and more each year. 16 yrs is not impossible to get it. Prascend has stopped my shettie getting footie now. You Lami attack in December suggests this could be a possibility.

In addition Test for EMS Equine Metabolic Syndrome - some of these horses are best managed on no grass at all and metformin, although I have no experience of this.
However, both conditions untreated can result in laminitic episodes no matter how careful you are.
I also think the absesses are a side effect of the lami.
Apologies if you've already done this, but if your horse tests positive it will make managing the laminitis easier.
In the meantime, hope you get the vet bill issues resolved
Click to expand...

Sorry millimoo, no she has not been tested. I did ask my vet about testing her once she got her first abscess but he said he didn't think we needed to yet and I trusted his opinion, but maybe getting a second opinion and a test anyway would be wise. Thank you for your advise.
 
stranger1612 said:
I would imagine your vet is wary of giving away more credit as currently it doesn't look like they are going to get paid!
Click to expand...

Yes ok fair enough, I see your point. I have actually discussed the matter with the vets though and they are very understanding. The reason it has been outstanding for so long is because the owner keeps saying she will phone the vets and sort payment, but just isn't doing what she says she is going to do! I have asked the vets to let me know if they have heard from owner by Monday and if not, I have said we will have to just make the payment. No it isn't what we want to do but as you say, I don't want to be in this situation where I may not have a vet for much longer.
 
To be honest if you have had her 5 years then I'm not sure I would have bothered her owner with more than updates and some nice photos showing her progress. Afraid I would have assumed her full care by the end of the first year including vet bills but that is my personal opinion on a loan pony if I'm getting the benefit I expect to pay the costs associated with it.

I hope whatever happens you resolve your issues with the vets must be a very difficult situation.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top