Where do I stand? Serious help needed please.

Whoever called the vet... And agreed to what treatment is required, is responsible for the bill. The contract is between the loaner and the vet, not the owner and the vet. What the owner has or has not done with insurance is a totally separate issue.
 
Agree with buying horse.
Sounds as though owner is skint and you want to keep horse.
So agree a price and knock the vets fee off.
You could even argue that currently the horse is of very little value with its problems so could try to get owner to sign horse over to you with the agreement you will pay vet bill.
 
Do you know if the owner has any other horses? She may genuinely not have the money to pay and is hoping that if she ignores you you'll get fed up an settle it anyway. Have you suggested to her that you will pay the bill if and when she signs the pony over to you?
 
I suspect your contract is with the vets. You could then try to claim in court your costs off the horseowner. If so, I wouldn't be surprised if the horseowner counter-claimed, on the basis that the horse was under your control when sustaining these conditions. The insurance issue is a red herring, as the conditions would have been excluded anyway. Your contract should have stated who is responsible for vets bills not covered by insurance. In the absence of such a term, the owner might legitimately argue that it is an implied term that, as keeper of the horse, you are responsible for vets bills for conditions sustained when the horse is under your care. Alternatively, you could have (but did not) mitigate your losses by making it your business to see the insurance cover note at the time of the first vets bill, and/or by writing to the owner clearly setting out your position that you held them responsible for vets bills thereafter.

Morally, I don't think you've got much to complain about. You've had the horse 5 years, and enjoyed free use of it, its at an age where vets bills tend to be more common, most of us don't have anyone else to pay our vet's bills for our horses - its part and parcel of being involved in horses.
 
Paulag said:
Citizen's advice might help.

Sound like the owner is seriously skint though. One possibility if family would help is to work out what she's worth, knock the vets bill off and offer that to the owner for her. It sounds like you're not going to want to give her back.
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Um, sorry, but IME Cits Advice are as much good as a nun in a punch-up TBH. I can't imagine they'd know anything about equine issues. Know OP doesn't want to run up any more bills but it might be economic in the long term to run this past a good solicitor with experience of equine affairs.

Re. second point. Good idea! Then at least you'd secure the horse and know her future. Sounds like a cr@p owner who doesn't deserve to have a horse at all.
 
No need for an apology OP :D
My vet raised his eyebrows when I asked for the test as my pony looked so well - however the vet was out for a mild lami episode, something he never used to get (went from out unmuzzled 7 hours a day in 4 acre field, and stabled at night for years, to muzzling and 5 hours between March and October - remains on Hayledge due to dust allergy)
Horses as young as 9 have been diagnosed with Cushings, although rare.
Obviously one step at a time, get yourself sorted and your horsey better, then think about the test - best time for testing is March and October anyway.
All the best, and if you do get a positive result, I promise it is not the end of the world.
My ponio is 24 yrs now, gallops out every morning, is as cheeky as ever and looks the picture of health.
 
Paulag said:
See if you can get some legal advice. Citizen's advice might help.

Sound like the owner is seriously skint though. One possibility if family would help is to work out what she's worth, knock the vets bill off and offer that to the owner for her. It sounds like you're not going to want to give her back.

Paula
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This is what I would do.

Also start a payment arrangement with vet.

Did you get the owner ok before vet treatment regardless of loan contract?
 
OP, can't offer advice, but I'm with Millimoo on the Cushings and EMS tests. I'd have been testing for these as a vet after the FIRST attack, given that it was winter and no frost on the ground. More than one attack after restricting grazing would ring very large alarm bells.

Just to make you aware, though, insurers do exclude Cushings and EMS after a laminitis attack. Mine did and I told them where to stick their next renewal (my pony has tested negative for Cushings, too!). I would put money on them excluding abscesses too, if they were laminitis related, but may be wrong on that.
 
Difficult situation here, I'm sorry for you and even sorrier for the horse. I have not read all the replies, but the mare does look very overweight in the pictures. With a previous history of laminitis, I would have done everything in my power to get her weight down in order to prevent her getting another attack. If I were the owner, I would not be happy. On the other hand, having declared that she would be responsible for vet fees and then not informing you that she had changed her mind, was wrong.

My view is that the owner should sell you the horse for a nominal sum and that you should speak to the vet practice and arrange to pay a mutually agreeable monthly direct debit to get this account paid.
 
Mithras said:
Morally, I don't think you've got much to complain about. You've had the horse 5 years, and enjoyed free use of it, its at an age where vets bills tend to be more common, most of us don't have anyone else to pay our vet's bills for our horses - its part and parcel of being involved in horses.
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^^^^ this tbh, sorry op. Id ask the owner to officially sign ownership to you though since you have had the horse so long and have incurred such bills.
 
NeverSayNever said:
^^^^ this tbh, sorry op. Id ask the owner to officially sign ownership to you though since you have had the horse so long and have incurred such bills.
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I do agree and see where you/others are coming from with this point, but since we have paid every single vets bill in the past and never asked for a penny, and replaced/bought new items that Cassie needs even though down to our loan agreement, this is her responsibility, then I don't think it is out of order to ask her to contribute/pay half the bill when needed. If she didn't want the responsibility of owning a horse then she should have sold her years ago, in my opinion. Even though she is on loan, she still owns her, and she wrote the agreement, not me, so these are her own terms she has broken!
 
My mare when out on loan had a bout of laminitis, this was due to them over feeding her she was a 100Kg over her normal summer weight , she had never had laminitis before. The ponies that I loan out tend to be older and it is far to expensive to insure them, in the agreement the loaner has to pay the first £500 of any illness or injury not prexisting. Over that the pony is returned to me and I have to decide wether to treat or PTS.
The loaner paid all the vets fees for the bout of laminitis. If the pony was already laminitic its specified in the loan agreement, her management and target weight.
To be honest I do not know how the bill has got so much, yes the owner should have insured for vets fees but if this was a preexisting condition this would be exempted.
I would return the pony as this seems to be a long term problem and if you can not manage it you are going to continue to need the vet so more expense and more distress to the pony. I would then try and negoite with the owner over the bill.
My pony now has Cushings but even with all the grass this year she has not had lammi and she has been turned out in a herd. To some she may look thin but she has no pain in her feet.
 
And to all those saying how pony is overweight in pictures - photos are from years ago, yes she was...was a nightmare as she would get muzzle off/escape from field all the time (literally, run through fencing to get a grass, not joking) and the grass was very rich at that particular farm. Hence one of reasons why we moved yards :) pony now... (sorry but just feel I need to prove this point!!)

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honetpot said:
My mare when out on loan had a bout of laminitis, this was due to them over feeding her she was a 100Kg over her normal summer weight , she had never had laminitis before. The ponies that I loan out tend to be older and it is far to expensive to insure them, in the agreement the loaner has to pay the first £500 of any illness or injury not prexisting. Over that the pony is returned to me and I have to decide wether to treat or PTS.
The loaner paid all the vets fees for the bout of laminitis. If the pony was already laminitic its specified in the loan agreement, her management and target weight.
To be honest I do not know how the bill has got so much, yes the owner should have insured for vets fees but if this was a preexisting condition this would be exempted.
I would return the pony as this seems to be a long term problem and if you can not manage it you are going to continue to need the vet so more expense and more distress to the pony. I would then try and negoite with the owner over the bill.
My pony now has Cushings but even with all the grass this year she has not had lammi and she has been turned out in a herd. To some she may look thin but she has no pain in her feet.
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We would have been happy with terms like that, it is more the fact that she has not stuck to/broken the terms she wrote herself...I am not returning the pony (unless I have to obviously). The only terms on the loan agreement are 'Limit grazing as she has shown signs of laminitis in past' which we have always done anyway, she has never not been on restricted. As a 16 year old girl, who didn't know much about laminitis, maybe it was my fault when she got it with us the first time but we have always been very careful after that.

The reason the vets bill is so much is because she suffered with 2 separate abscesses and had to go into the clinic for 3 days on one occasion, x-rayed etc. The laminitis was not so much an issue, it was more where her feet were so rubbish from having laminitis last December in all four feet and susceptible to picking up infection. She didn't actually HAVE laminitis with the abscesses, just the previous attacks were a reason for her getting them. From what I understand with my current insurance for pony, they would have paid for abscess treatment had the insurance been existing at the time.
 
You don't want to pay vet bills but you don't want to send the pony back either. Wanting your cake and eating it springs to mind.

So what are you going to do then? If you keep the pony the owner won't pay and will carry on expecting you to pick up the tab for everything. Yes she should stick to her original agreement but she's made it clear she's not going to. She's a bad owner to loan from in that respect. That's why people have suggested you're going to be better off buying the pony, it cuts her out the equation.

You're going to end up with problems, if you stay as you are. Currently owner can decide when to PTS, yet you're the one paying vet bills, so what happens when you want to stop treatment but owner disagrees? Pony will be under your care, on livery/your land and owner probably won't come collect her (even if pony is fit to travel, depending on what goes wrong).

So you could at some point be left with a sick or injured pony that you don't want to pay any more treatment for, you can't legally PTS, on livery where *you* are the client, and you have no way of sending it back to owner (unless you hire a box and leave pony tied to garden gate at home address!) What then? For your sake, as much as the ponys, it needs to be sorted out.

IMO you need another solution other than your current plan of digging your heels in and trying to insist the owner pays the vet bill, whilst letting you continue to loan the horse. Else you'll be posting again in a few months, saying the bill is bigger now/something else went wrong, and what should you do. Probably everyone will give you the same advice again too. I don't understand why you want to risk endlessly going round in circles, until this old pony is one day PTS, rather than sorting the situation out now with regards to who is going to take responsibility financially for her veterinary care. Your current plan isn't working is it.
 
I'm sure its been said but I would say the horse is yours now. Ask her to sell her for £1 on paper, get passports transferred and be get on with taking care of your lovely horse. Just unfortunate that you have to pay the vets
 
Sugar_and_Spice said:
You don't want to pay vet bills but you don't want to send the pony back either. Wanting your cake and eating it springs to mind.

So what are you going to do then? If you keep the pony the owner won't pay and will carry on expecting you to pick up the tab for everything. Yes she should stick to her original agreement but she's made it clear she's not going to. She's a bad owner to loan from in that respect. That's why people have suggested you're going to be better off buying the pony, it cuts her out the equation.

You're going to end up with problems, if you stay as you are. Currently owner can decide when to PTS, yet you're the one paying vet bills, so what happens when you want to stop treatment but owner disagrees? Pony will be under your care, on livery/your land and owner probably won't come collect her (even if pony is fit to travel, depending on what goes wrong).

So you could at some point be left with a sick or injured pony that you don't want to pay any more treatment for, you can't legally PTS, on livery where *you* are the client, and you have no way of sending it back to owner (unless you hire a box and leave pony tied to garden gate at home address!) What then? For your sake, as much as the ponys, it needs to be sorted out.

IMO you need another solution other than your current plan of digging your heels in and trying to insist the owner pays the vet bill, whilst letting you continue to loan the horse. Else you'll be posting again in a few months, saying the bill is bigger now/something else went wrong, and what should you do. Probably everyone will give you the same advice again too. I don't understand why you want to risk endlessly going round in circles, until this old pony is one day PTS, rather than sorting the situation out now with regards to who is going to take responsibility financially for her veterinary care. Your current plan isn't working is it.
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I have already said we are going to pay it, and yes I am going to suggest she signs the pony over to me, then obviously the total responsibility is mine from then onwards.
 
jadelovescassie said:
I have already said we are going to pay it, and yes I am going to suggest she signs the pony over to me, then obviously the total responsibility is mine from then onwards.
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She looks a sweetie in the photos.

I agree with the suggestion that you pay a nominal amount to owner and consider the vet's bills the true cost of buying.

It's a pity but from what you say and the legal advice given by those with the knowledge, is sounds unlikely you will get payment from the owner.
 
Sorry but I do not get the point that if you paid for things the pony is yours.
My ponies go out on loan with a full set of tack and rugs, I also ask at the start of the winter if the pony needs a new rug and have paid to have its saddle restuffed. I have had a couple of loaners buy ponies rugs, bits of kit which is their choice and they obviously pay for showing, wormer, livery etc. Buying equipment or paying vets fees doesn't make the animal yours.
Yes in not insuring she has broken her side of the agreement and if I were her I would probabely want to resolve the situation by you buying her but you need to accept that she may surprise you and want it back.
 
jadelovescassie said:
I do agree and see where you/others are coming from with this point, but since we have paid every single vets bill in the past and never asked for a penny, and replaced/bought new items that Cassie needs even though down to our loan agreement, this is her responsibility, then I don't think it is out of order to ask her to contribute/pay half the bill when needed. If she didn't want the responsibility of owning a horse then she should have sold her years ago, in my opinion. Even though she is on loan, she still owns her, and she wrote the agreement, not me, so these are her own terms she has broken!
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I presume you have had this horse on full and permanent loan? In which case it is NOT the owners responsibility to replace/buy new items, it is YOURS as is this vet bill.

She may still own the horse but it is in your keeping, you have had and enjoyed this horse for 5 years, whether you own her or not, you are her keeper.

The insurance question is not even valid as laminitis would never have been covered anyway.

If you had not had this horse for such a long time, perhaps I would see your point, but now it is starting to cost you serious money you want to absolve yourself of responsibility and are looking to the owner to bail you out.

I feel sorry for the horse.
 
Amaranta said:
I presume you have had this horse on full and permanent loan? In which case it is NOT the owners responsibility to replace/buy new items, it is YOURS as is this vet bill.

She may still own the horse but it is in your keeping, you have had and enjoyed this horse for 5 years, whether you own her or not, you are her keeper.

The insurance question is not even valid as laminitis would never have been covered anyway.

If you had not had this horse for such a long time, perhaps I would see your point, but now it is starting to cost you serious money you want to absolve yourself of responsibility and are looking to the owner to bail you out.

I feel sorry for the horse.
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Yes it is her owners responsibility to replace items, it is written quite clearly on our loan agreement, so please don't tell me otherwise! Insurance would have been valid for abscesses, my current insurers see this as a separate condition to the laminitis.

'I feel sorry for the horse.' Why? It's not like she's being brought into this issue, makes no difference in the care she receives. I look after the horse very well and I have done nothing but work my arse off to bring her back to good health and keep it that way for the last 4 months and certainly care about her much more than the owner as far as I can see! As mentioned I don't think it is out of order to ask her to pay some of the bill considering the circumstances. I think that was a very unneccessary and nasty comment, but maybe that's just me :rolleyes:
 
jadelovescassie said:
Yes it is her owners responsibility to replace items, it is written quite clearly on our loan agreement, so please don't tell me otherwise! Insurance would have been valid for abscesses, my current insurers see this as a separate condition to the laminitis.

'I feel sorry for the horse.' Why? It's not like she's being brought into this issue, makes no difference in the care she receives. I look after the horse very well and I have done nothing but work my arse off to bring her back to good health and keep it that way for the last 4 months and certainly care about her much more than the owner as far as I can see! As mentioned I don't think it is out of order to ask her to pay some of the bill considering the circumstances. I think that was a very unneccessary and nasty comment, but maybe that's just me :rolleyes:
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I have to agree op, very unnecessary comment.

I do think that the op is currently receiving a lot of very judgemental comments, several of which are pretty unfair as the people making them don't know the full story or are misinformed about feeding or have read the posts wrong.
I actually think by the op's replies that she is a sensible and level headed person who loves her horse a great deal and tries very hard for her. She alone knows what the loan agreement says and it is clear that the owner does accept that she should pay at least some of the bill but probably can't. The op simply asked for a bit of friendly advice about this not for a telling off about lami or for being supposedly irresponsible.
Please be nice guys.
 
Glad you've come to a decision OP. Hope the owner sells to you for a nominal fee, it doesn't sound like the pony has much value (financially, I know she's worth it to you). At least once she's yours you will have full control over vets bills. Fingers crossed she makes a full recovery.
 
If you pursue the legal route you may be advised to attempt mediation but it would seem the owner may not take any notice but the fact that she's ignoring emails and not co-operating with you at this stage will not look good for her as she needs to be seen to look for an amicable resolution and by the sounds of it she's not! The outcome would all depend on how the contract was worded and may be additional cost for yourself, its always the injured party that seems to come off worse! Good luck whatever you do, the owner seems like a bounder and shouldnt be keeping horses if she has 'selected ownership' when it comes to shelling out money!

On another note, has the horse been tested for cushings?
 
millimoo said:
So I'll ask again... Im breaking my own rule and going off topic
OP you clearly love your horse and are on the case, however please test for Cushings - my pony was tested showing no symptoms apart from getting footy even though he was restricted more and more each year. 16 yrs is not impossible to get it. Prascend has stopped my shettie getting footie now. You Lami attack in December suggests this could be a possibility.

In addition Test for EMS Equine Metabolic Syndrome - some of these horses are best managed on no grass at all and metformin, although I have no experience of this.
However, both conditions untreated can result in laminitic episodes no matter how careful you are.
I also think the absesses are a side effect of the lami.
Apologies if you've already done this, but if your horse tests positive it will make managing the laminitis easier.
In the meantime, hope you get the vet bill issues resolved
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*************THIS ^^^^^^**************
 
If the horse was insured, surely after this amount of lami attacks, the insurance would no longer cover them anyway ? Most policies are on a one year rolling contract, and any claims in one year will be excluded the next, almost guaranteed. Is this why the owner stopped paying the premiums ? And I hate to say it, but if you have declared previous lami on your new policy, that will almost certainly be excluded too.

The onus for the vet fee itself falls on the person who contacted the vet in the first place. i.e. their client. If the owner made the call, she is the client. If the loaner made the call, they are the client. Therefore if the loaner called the vet, THEY are liable for the fees.

The only way to recoup money from the owner is probably to sue. BUT I have to say that any court would want to know why at least a copy of the current insurance policy had not been given to the loaner if the loaner was taking on responsiblity for the horse and not insuring it themselves. I even have to give a copy to my DIY yard owner. I simply would not take on a horse where the insurance (whether valid for a current problem or not) was crystal clear.

A very hard position to be in, but i do think the only option is to do what others have said - get the horse signed over to you for £1, and accept that the vet fees really are down to you. :(
 
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It's all a moot point as neither the lammi or the abc eases, which you say yourself were caused by lammi, would be covered :(
 
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