Where do I stand with an incident of another livery owner letting my horse loose, out of their field...?

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WellfieldWR

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Hiya!

There has been a recent incident at my yard, whereby a new livery, of about 4 days, came to feed her horse outside the field (This is common practice at our place, remove the horse from field, feed, return to field.)
I would like to know what/if I would have been able to claim against her, if something awful were to have happened!

When getting her horse in, a few in the herd followed to the gate (The herd consist of 8 horses - 4 Irish draught types, 2 cobs and 2 Thoroughbred types)
When she got to the gate (which opens inwards to the field) she was nervous of the other horses and has stated she felt threatened by them and they were bullying her horse (This isn't usual behaviour of our bunch..)
When she opened the gate to get hers in, she says that she tried to only let hers through, but he was nervous from the attention of the others and the others had clocked her feed bowl waiting and were rowdy and pushy.

She claims that one of the bigger horses pulled the gate open and out of her control.
Then the horses all pushed through the opening and ran up the driveway - She managed to keep hold of her horse though.

Witnesses from other fields state that instead of acting straight away and putting her horse back and trying to start catching them, she called the YO, but continued to remove her horse's rug and let him nibble from his bowl - Taking time to put her rug away in the back of her car etc.

When her horse had finished his supplement feed, she put him back and went after the others with a lead rope and as the YO arrived from the house.

My horse was unfortunately in this group that had been let out - In one direction, the driveway they ran up leads to a heavy plant and lorry park, the other way leads to a busy road...

Fortunately, my horse and the others were returned and checked, by our yard owner upon her arrival from the house - No injuries or issues.

Unfortunately, this woman has proven fairly incompetent on a number of occasions, such as feeding treats to her horse in the field, struggling with latching the electric fencing correctly and this incident.
She was unapologetic for the incident, didn't consider our horses' welfare and in fact blamed the YO for 'lying' to her that the herd is a chilled out friendly bunch!
She was more concerned that the YO didn't pay her more attention and apologise to her for the incident!

I am of the opinion that this is nothing to do with the YO - The field gates are secure and safe. Metal gate, with two levels of electric fencing and a chain latch.
The usual behaviours of the horses is not of this nature - I've never had an issue exiting/entering the field and been here 2 years. So, we suspect she has been feeding treats regularly, which attracts them to her, as well as having the 'new boy' in the herd.

Additionally, my opinion is, and I am angry, that my horse was put at risk, by her incompetence (and to a degree, negligence) in leading her horse from the pasture safely.
She states she was nervous and felt threatened by the other horses, as she doesn't know them fully, yet had walked into the field in trainers, no hat or gloves, nor a whip to help her out of any potential trouble - When I first came to the yard, I was wary for a similar reason, of not knowing the boys, so initially caught my horse in all my PPE and walk at the edge of field, so I could get out if anything did happen... but it never has done!

As a result of this incident, she was asked to leave the next day, either returning to her old yard, or finding an alternative within 30-days - Our yard owner had zero-tolerance for the incident occurring, especially due to the livery's reaction and slow response to aid the situation and this never occurring before.
She has since left earlier, as her horse and another were playing/bickering and hers got a kicked to the knee, which meant she had to move swiftly to a yard with stables available for box-rest.

Thank you for any comments :)
 
I can’t see how she was negligent in the eyes of the law if it was an accident as she’s claimed. Being stupid is unfortunately not against the law!

My first thought was that you ought to have an inner coral for a herd with different owners if there’s no gates between the field and the road. This would give the security of being able to remove one and close the inner gate before opening the main field gate. She could I suppose argue that YO was negligent by not providing this.

Hopefully your YO will be more careful who she lets in next time, but I think like most things involving sharing facilities, you just have to move on.
 
Not a good thing to happen at all and I would have been seriously mad that she didnt take care and didnt even attempt to get the lose horses asap. You must be very upset over it, I think a lot of people would be.

To be honest, its happened and thank goodness no horses were injured but I think you need to put it behind you. Your YO has dealt with the issue very swiftly and sounds as though they are the type of person to now be mindful of similar ever happening again.

If it is worrying you, that it could happen again, you need to have a chat with your yard owner. It sounds to me that they are the sort of person that may well have already planned changes but not het communicated them (no treats in the field, horses to be brought well away from the field before feeding, a buddy system so that a new/or unsure owner could go to get their horse out of the field with help).
 
Allowing liveries to feed horses just outside the fields in full view of the herd is a stupid idea. It was only a matterof time before the herd got loose or one of them got kicked, milling around trying to get to the feed. I feel rather sorry for an inexperienced owner being place at risk by unsafe practices and then getting kicked off!
 
Ambers Echo said:
Allowing liveries to feed horses just outside the fields in full view of the herd is a stupid idea. It was only a matterof time before the herd got loose or one of them got kicked, milling around trying to get to the feed. I feel rather sorry for an inexperienced owner being place at risk by unsafe practices and then getting kicked off!
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Appreciate your comment :)

It's never been an issue in the time I've been there, the horses who don't get fed regularly are pretty good and knowing who's coming to get them in and not bothering generally.
It's not generally common practice, but as I say, there's never been problems with horses coming round the gateways previously, hence we believe she's been calling with treats etc.
There is a tie-up rail which is most often used, as you can then do proper checks of your horse etc and not have to keep hold of them... Again, not sure why the owner of the horse didn't make use of that - Would've avoided the incident!

Again appreciate your comment though :)
 
ester said:
So your horse is fine
and she's left with a horse needing boxrest.

I think you did ok out of it.

I don't think she was in any way negligent, perhaps someone could have offered to help her to make sure the horses were ok with the new horse?
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It is a DIY/Grass livery and we all go up a different times, often don't see anyone else from my field, maybe once or twice a week!
I don't believe she'd asked for assistance or advice before going and tending her horse though.

When the horses escaped, the other liveries, from other fields were the first to start gathering up the horses and ensuring their safe return - which was a lifesaver!

Appreciate that fortunately nothing did happen, but my main question was what could I do if something had!
 
You say it's a settled herd, but the new livery's horse had just been introduced (4 days previously, with no gradual/separate turnout?), so the herd wasn't settled with a very new member. Not ideal, but not totally unexpected either!

I think the YO should put some better procedures in place, to stop this kind of thing happening again - a double gated area, or a rule about feeding near the herd, or both!

.
 
Ownedby4horses said:
Not a good thing to happen at all and I would have been seriously mad that she didnt take care and didnt even attempt to get the lose horses asap. You must be very upset over it, I think a lot of people would be.

To be honest, its happened and thank goodness no horses were injured but I think you need to put it behind you. Your YO has dealt with the issue very swiftly and sounds as though they are the type of person to now be mindful of similar ever happening again.

If it is worrying you, that it could happen again, you need to have a chat with your yard owner. It sounds to me that they are the sort of person that may well have already planned changes but not het communicated them (no treats in the field, horses to be brought well away from the field before feeding, a buddy system so that a new/or unsure owner could go to get their horse out of the field with help).
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Yep - Grateful nothing tragic happened and all ok - I just feel I would hold the owner specifically accountable, due to her lack of responsiveness to the situation and leaving others to sort it out for her.
Definitely in a better place since shes left, horses back to being chilled and no worries when i'm not up there!
 
HeyMich said:
You say it's a settled herd, but the new livery's horse had just been introduced (4 days previously, with no gradual/separate turnout?), so the herd wasn't settled with a very new member. Not ideal, but not totally unexpected either!

I think the YO should put some better procedures in place, to stop this kind of thing happening again - a double gated area, or a rule about feeding near the herd, or both!

.
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Hiya,

I think this is certainly going to be discussed at next yard meeting. As I say, its not something that's ever happened before, all the other gateways lead to adjacent fields or the yard, this one unfortunately doesn't!
The group is very chilled, even with the integration of this new boy, there had been no running around or 'sillyness' as you may expect - Very lucky group of mainly retired geldings!
I do suspect the lady was treating in the field and giving to others as she met them - but can't be sure, certainly strange that they've only ever done this with her, and none of the other horses when they've arrived new!

Glad she's out now though and the rest of us in the field have been in communication about it and ensuring we're being safe at the gateways etc!
 
Removing one horse from the herd and doing the gate without issue is often a tricky thing at livery yards when the livery is maybe more novice and that is combined with them being new there.

A new horse certainly can make horses behave differently from how they usually do (with no treats involved) and I'm going through it at the moment with an old mare who really should know better.

New horses crowding around a person certainly can make them nervous, frightened and feel threatened because they just don't know them and horses are BIG. I think we sometimes forget that when we handle and see the same horses all the time.

I wouldn't have put a single horse in a field alone while others were loose and running about. Horses can get frantic and do stupid things in that situation (eg jump out, crash through the fence) so a stable would have been a safer choice. She could then have safely started to catch the loose horses. No she shouldn't have wasted time fiddling with rugs.

Calling the YO for help was sensible.

I have to admit, I do feel that while she didn't do everything correctly, she has been treated harshly from what you said. I have been on yards with very novice/new owners and they do learn how to cope with emergencies but this doesn't always come naturally.

If the YO feels that she wasn't right for the yard then they absolutely have the right to give them notice.

I also agree that a corral by the gate would be sensible especially when you have a new horse join the herd. It acts as an 'airlock' and definitely does help to prevent escapes.
 
I think there would be nothing you could do because you would not be able to prove anything. In law you are liable for your horse even if it was deliberately let out by someone. Going forward you could ensure you have very good public liability insurance and vet fee insurance to try to protect yourself from financial damage. You could also leave a headcollar on your horse to make him easier to catch if he escapes or is let out again. Lucky you have a good YO who kicked this person off! I have seen novices before opening gate wide leading their horse right through before turning round to shut gate and it is pot luck if anything nearby follows! I think it is a skill like anything else and the very new to horses have no idea how to extract a horse from the field swiftly with minimal gate opening space and keeping hold of both horse and gate. Her attitude was bad though for not considering the loose horses an emergency and acting accordingly and for being all precious like she has been wronged!
 
1. I wouldn't have horses fed outside the field in view of the other horses
2. I don't see why you are wondering what you could have claimed. Nothing happened that required any thought to claiming
3. I can understand why she was worried and nervous surrounded by 8 largish rowdy horses around a gate. OK so they aren't normally like this but there was a new dynamic, a new horse, and maybe they were behaving as she said.
4. Why didn't the witnesses do something useful to help her, a new livery and the 8 loose horses?
5. Why is there only one gate, the field gate between the herd and freedom to go into a dangerous situation at both ends of the drive
6. She'd only been there 4 days. Was she shown how to remove one horse from a field of 9? Seriously there aren't many people with that skill especially with unknown horses. Why wasn't she accompanied the first few times of removing her horse from the field? To give her confidence and also for the YO to assess that she was able to do this safely by herself.
 
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Meowy Catkin said:
I also agree that a corral by the gate would be sensible especially when you have a new horse join the herd. It acts as an 'airlock' and definitely does help to prevent escapes.
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As someone who, like the subject of this thread, is in the middle of getting used to a large group of new horses, not having a second gate before they could get to the lorry park or the main road has me terrified even thinking about it.
 
I'm 37, riding since 4 I have only removed a horse from a herd on a handful of occasions.
Would I be worried extricating my horse from an over interested gang of others I didn't know. Yup.
Do I sometimes wish I did some things differently in an emergency situation after the situation. Yup.
 
WellfieldWR said:
It has been seen and she had also shaken her bowl to call him over to her since the incident happened! :)
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I used to livery with a teenager that sometimes struggled to catch her pony. She would go in the field with a stubbs scoop of pony nuts and when she failed to catch the pony after all she would lob the scoop at her pony and often hit the wrong one.

If I was there, I'd just offer to catch her pony for her. It was easier as sadly that one was a bit of a lost cause. Being hit by a feed scoop on a regular basis had made the herd a bit wary of her.
 
I wouldn't want my horses on a yard where there is no gate to stop them getting onto a road or other harmful area tbh. There should be a corral of electric fencing when multiple owners are trying to take horses singly out of the field. A helpful YO would have gone with a new client to ensure that she could get her horse out of the field without problem.
 
Liveries like this lady make my blood run cold. With a settled herd, it should be possible to take a horse out without problem, unless they are very hungry or the field is overstocked. Unconfident or inexperienced owners often misread the signs and either let the horses run through the gate, or start hitting out with whips or blue pipe.
I'm glad that the YO got rid of her, I've had a horse let out onto a road two days in succession by a new owner. No idea why they had a problem, in all the years I had him, he'd never pushed through any other time.
Fortunately, current yard has gates so no escapee come to harm. If a new livery seems to have difficulty, I try to be around until they get used to the herd. A second person to do the gate makes things less stressful, it also deters people from whacking the horses with whips.
 
I am rather confused. OP you are asking where do you stand when nothing actually happened to your horse or anyone else's as far as I can see from your post? It sounds like an unfortunate accident that happened with a naive or inexperienced new livery getting out of her depth in a rather unsafe set up for all liveries getting their horses out of the field.

I would be asking your YO to install some sort of coral that will ensure this never happens again - as just one gate between a field full of horses and very dangerous situations in both directions is just well...an accident waiting to happen!

Your assumption that it is a settled herd and it has never happened before so would not have ever happened without this new livery actually suggests to me you might possibly be rather inexperienced yourself if you rely totally on a herd of horses reacting in a given way on every occasion. No matter how laid back and compliant they normally are? You or or YO should have implemented something such as the coral idea a long time back to avoid just this sort of accident happening.

Sorry if that seems a little harsh but really do think people are so quick to start calculating the what ifs and how could I claim etc...when the responsible thing would be to think now how can I best make sure this never happens again and how could I or someone else have actually helped the other livery when she got into difficulties.
 
A few things, it's not a settled herd they had a new member join 4 days ago.

The setup sounds dangerous and I wouldn't want my horses in it. I wonder if this was just an accident waiting to happen.

I feel sorry for the livery that wasn't offered help and has since been thrown off the yard with an injured horse. She's had a hellish 4 days.

It seems a strange thing to think about if you could have claimed, if something had happened. I'd say it's unlikely you could.

You seem undecided if you know if she was treating the other horses or not.
 
Does sound a bit of a dangerous set up - and not one I'd be comfortable leaving a new, inexperienced livery to negotiate her way through. I have gates from the fields into hard standing pens on all but one of my fields, so if anyone squeezes through, they cant get out. The one field that doesn't have a pen has another exit - into the field that has a pen, so hypothetically, no-one needs to use that gate if they're worried. Everyone does, because the horses in that field are a settled herd, and they all know full well that if they cause trouble at the gate while a person is in there, attached to a horse - they will feel the sting of 1000 leadropes.

That said, I've seen the other side of this story on a dodgy livery yards page on FB, and the woman responsible for letting these horses out sounds utterly batshit, and a troublemaker to boot!
 
Auslander said:
That said, I've seen the other side of this story on a dodgy livery yards page on FB, and the woman responsible for letting these horses out sounds utterly batshit, and a troublemaker to boot!
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Is that the other side to this particular incident Auslander or are they discussing on FB a similar incident?

Either way I have to say OP's rather smug and self satisfied obvious delight that this livery has been thrown off with an injured horse to find stabling for is actually rather offensive and speaks volumes to me of the attitudes on this particular yard to new liveries.
 
Mrs Jingle said:
Is that the other side to this particular incident Auslander or are they discussing on FB a similar incident?

Either way I have to say OP's rather smug and self satisfied obvious delight that this livery has been thrown off with an injured horse to find stabling for is actually rather offensive and speaks volumes to me of the attitudes on this particular yard to new liveries.
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I would say that it is the same incident - as all the points add up. I pledge to eat my own foot if I am wrong.
 
nom nom.

I just could see the other side as easily being, I moved to this nice new yard, I've not seen most of the other liveries but all the horses in the field barged through the gate as I was trying to get mine in, I called the YO as they were headed in that direction. I was asked to leave and now my horse has been kicked and injured and is on boxrest.
 
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