Where do I stand?

Vizslak

Vizslak

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This could be long sorry!
We had some stupid men from the electric company come round this morning, to cut a long story short they thought we hadn't paid bill when we have and wanted to come and change the meter to a pre pay meter or something. Electric bill is in OH's name so they wouldn't tell me the issue but still wanted me to let them on property to change the meter. Anyway I phoned OH at work and the issue is resolved now but heres the thing that got me thinking...
Tilly is a fantastic guard dog, especially as we live in the arse end of nowhere and I spend 10 hours a day alone up here when OH is working. All the dogs were out this morning when these men turned up and were immediatley barking at the gate, I went out and told the other 3 to shut it and allowed Tilly to stand growling and barking over the gate at the men until I assertained who they were and what they wanted, infact I didnt call her off at all because then they wanted to come on the property and I wasn't going to let them! :p One of the men though, and I'm not entirely sure why on earth anyone would do this faced with Tilly in 'protect' mode put his hand out over the fence to...I don't know, passify her? I was stood there so shouted 'no, don't' to him very loudly! He got his hand out the way just as her jaws snapped together! :eek: If she had bitten him, where would I stand legally? She would never go off our property and bite someone so it's not like I'm saying I have some terrible dangerous dog but she will attack people coming onto the property uninvited, to be honest (prepares to be linched) I have never discouraged that. So what do I do about idiots who think they have some kind of super power and still want to stick their hands over the fence and get bitten?! There is a sign on the gate that merely states 'caution dogs running free'. Should I put another sign up warning that the lurcher will infact bite you, should you be arrogant enough to contemplate that she won't bite YOU, think again?! I have heard conflicting views as to signs/dogs/liability. Right I'm sure I am going to get accused of being a terrible person now, but all views welcome! ;)
 
I have heard that certain signs can be read as you admitting that your animal would behave in a dangerous fashion.
I was told by a solicitor friend not to put up a sign asking people to stay away from our goat (yes, the goat) as some joker could use that as a way to get hurt and then sue us.

IMO, you gave a warning and that should have been enough. If I had been stupid enough to ignore that warning and press ahead and got bitten, I would consider it my own stupid fault, however I know how litigious other people can be :(
I gave my own uncle three warnings not to go in and say hi to Bella when she was crated in the kitchen as she is very insecure, he said 'oh but she knows me', ignored me, and she exploded at him, naturally!

There is a reason why service dog handlers warn people not to run and not to raise their arms - that is seen as a 'come on' by the dog. I realise different legalities cover service dogs but is the principle is not that different, is it? You raise your hand or run when explicitly told not to, you get a bite.

Just some musings, not sure if that was any help at all!!!

We ask people nicely to stay away from the dogs and most people are sensible enough to do so.
 
Thanks CC, thats helpful. I guess she is never alone out there for long so I can warn verbally when someone comes. Had he got straight out the car and stuck his hand over before I got out the house though, he would have been bitten and there would have been nothing I could have done about it! I have heard similar things as to signs and admitting liability, I'm not sure if there is something I could sensibily put on a sign that made it clear but was not admitting liability?
 
I would ask your insurance company, they might have a legal helpline?

I think that signs saying dogs running loose are preferred to beware of the dog signs:confused: But you should check this out with someone who knows :)

The DDA does not apply to private property (not that your dogs are dangerous, but it doesn't anyway) although there are moves afoot to change that, for the sake of postmen who keep getting savaged by dogs whose owners are too thick to put one of those little cage things on the back of their door to catch the post.
 
Thats a really good idea spud, I will ring them later, thanks.
She is dangerous though, truely, if someone comes onto the property uninvited she really is dangerous, unfortunately that also extends to putting their hands over the fence into the property! Off the property shes not dangerous.
 
yeah, thats a tricky one.

I have a lurcher who sounds very similiar to yours and have not discouraged her protective behaviour when at home either. One day, she may come in very useful! If she had bitten the man and he made a complaint, he could say that you were aware of the dog being potentially dangerous as you had pre-warned him about not putting his hand over the gate does that make sense? Whenever I have strangers like meter/water meter readers come round, I always put my dogs away, but I can understand why you didn't in this situation. Maybe put a sign on the gate stating 'Do not Enter - Loose dogs' or something similiar. That way you haven't indicated that the dogs are in any way dangerous and if they enter your property fully or partially then its at their own risk - but I am in no way a legal beagle and could be completely wrong!
 
I have been led to believe that if you put up a sign saying beware of the dog you are admitting that your dog is a danger. Crazy I know!! Your sign staing that dogs are running loose is the best one apparently. I personally don't have a sign, I let the dogs speak for themselves....literally. In saying that though they are rarely out without me being there.
How stupid was that guy though!!
 
Vizslak said:
This could be long sorry!
I went out and told the other 3 to shut it and allowed Tilly to stand growling and barking over the gate at the men
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To be honest, if someone put three dogs away and left one loose, I'd assume that the loose dog was safe and the 'dangerous' dogs had been put away out of regard for my safety. So I have some sympathy for the visitor.

Did you have hold of Tilly? I used to have a dog that would guard, but she wouldn't have been allowed to stand so near the gate that she could bite some idiot who put their hand over. If a passer by tried to pet her, or a posty got bitten, I think you'd be in real trouble - I hope she can't get right up to the get if she is loose and unsupervised?

I'd let her stand and make a fuss if I felt I needed the support as you did - but not within reach of the victim
 
I didn't shut the other dogs away, I just told them to stop barking.
I understand your point but she is quite clearly not 'safe' I certainly wouldn't go and pet her when she is in protect mode if she wasn't my dog! It is very obvious she is on guard and not friendly.
No I didn't have hold of her.
The post box is well out of her reach the other side of the gate, so the postman can deliver post safely without getting bitten. We don't get passers by!! Yes she can get right up to the fence line and gate, she is only out there when I am home but I'm not always supervising them outside no.
 
M- do you reckon people are more cautious of yours though because they are breeds more regarded as 'dangerous' ie. they look the part? I sometimes think people may think T is 'only a lurcher' despite her big size, so doesn't mean it? I think those people are clearly thick though because as I've stated she looks scary as you like in that mode and is very obviously communicating her intention, I certainly wouldn't approach her if it wasn't my dog.
 
He he yes I think people are more wary of Rotties than other breeds. However, if a dog is stood up at a fence or gate and clearly not pleased to see you I would not be rushing up to say hello.
Unfortunately in todays society we are probably liable for any injuries even if said person was on our property without permission.
 
Depending on your insurance company DO NOT admit she could potentially bite as your insurance willl sky rocket, esp for her.
Also you hit the nail on the head with the breed, obs you have seen my pointer and my shaggy lurcher, they are both shaggy and cute, but to stranger or a threat (thay are both lethal) hence why they remained with me, but everyone always makes a bee line for them (cos they look cute) my rotti does guard and I do not discourage her as I work lone nights and I want her to protect me, the world and it's neighbour are terrified of her, and she is the least likely to bite, she is all mouth but LOOKS the part, my akita also (not sure if u have seen a pic of her) she looks like a teddy bear, she attracts attention from miles away, again she is very sociable until she feel hreatened or is faced with a stranger possibly posing a thread, and she is silent and gives no warning, so potentially the worst of them all, it's good I can read her body language but most cannot and they jsut want to cuddle her, and given her breed and need for space she does not like like from a stranger.

I would keep the sign u have up, as suggested putting a CAUTION or BEWARE sign up is admitting u knew there was a possibility, Im sure on your own land/property if a person is bitten it's their fault, I did know of a younf lad that jumped on a fence of a garden with a shepherd in and was nipped and it was classed as his fault as he was on the dogs home/property.
 
I don't really know anything about the legal liability but personally I would not encourage any dog in behaviour that might lead it to bite someone, even if that person was 'asking for it', either by being ignorant of dog body language or by trying to enter the garden/house when he shouldn't. I would rather we got burglared than have a dog that might bite people - sorry!
 
I too have the "running free" sign as I understood that Beware of the Dog or similar was admitting liability. My old GSD wouldn't let anyone through the gate if I wasn't with her, but as long as I was there and kept a hand on her collar whilst they came in she was fine. I did have a similar situation to yours when someone put their hands over the gate when I was still down the drive, and she grabbed his sleeve.:eek: Luckily he was a gundog owner, and sensibly admitted it was his own fault for ignoring her warning signs.
Not a lot of help am I, have to say suspect if she had bitten and he had decided to be awkward you could have been in trouble. Its crazy but I'm sure I'm not the only one to have heard of cases where burglars have received compensation when they were bitten by a dog in the house they broke in to :mad:
 
Booboos said:
I don't really know anything about the legal liability but personally I would not encourage any dog in behaviour that might lead it to bite someone, even if that person was 'asking for it', either by being ignorant of dog body language or by trying to enter the garden/house when he shouldn't. I would rather we got burglared than have a dog that might bite people - sorry!
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That's ok, I knew that would be the opinion of some people. No need to apologise. To be fair it's not taught or encouraged behaviour, but I accept I don't actively discourage it in certain situations either.
Similar to Cayla, her people agression is one of the main reasons she lives here with me still and wasn't rehomed.
As I said though, I can stop it, if I had asked her to stop this morning she would have. Equally when the issue was cleared up over the phone with OH the men came onto the property to read the meter and she happily let them in because I told her to.
 
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An NFU agent told me (as others have said) that beware signs are admitting liability. I also have a "loose dogs" sign.

What would worry me is that she could have bitten someone who had only reached over the fence/gate as technically they could still be on public property? To avoid that would it be possible to raise the height of the gate or have something to stop her getting with in reach of the boundary? PITA but it could protect both of you.....

Mind you, a couple of years ago I got a panicky call from the windowcleaners :) asking how long before I got in - why? said me - they were stuck up a ladder, both of them as they had decided since they saw all 3 dogs sitting on the sofa as they did the front of the house to hop over the (6ft!) back gate to do the windows at the back. My dogs decided to let them in and then appeared through the dog flap and the old JRT wanted to kill them, the rottie was quite happy to have them there as long as they didn't try to leave (the other JRT hid in her bed, she doesn't do anything other than pretty :) ) Took me an hour to get home from work to rescue them and they said that the JRT was much scarier than the rott.......
 
Surely if he had got bitten and it went to court his case would fall apart??

At the time he (almost) got bitten

1. The dog was growling and barking
2. He had not been invited on to the property
3. You had given no indication it was safe/appropriate/okay to touch your dog.

I realise that the sad state of affairs these days means 'logic' need not apply to the law, but I would love to hear the justification for his actions :p :D
 
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