Where do I stand?

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crellow4

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Some advice required as I've no-one at home to ask!
I've recently sold a mare I've owned for 4 years. Her previous owners had used her as a broodmare, she'd bred at least 3 foals before I bought her and in the time I've had her she's had a further 3 foals. She's 15 this year and has essentially spent the last 7 years or so in a field having foals. Once her last foal was weaned I started to hack her out - nothing major, just half an hour around the lanes. I sold her from the field having established that she was a quiet and safe hack. The people who bought her came and viewed her on 4 occasions. I pointed out on each occasion that the mare was underweight, not severely, and lacked muscle tone. On 2 occasions their daughter rode the mare and said how much she enjoyed riding her. I've been feeding her adlib hay and 2 small feeds of Alpha-A, she has picked up in the time between viewings which were some 3 weeks apart.
I delivered the mare yesterday to a local livery yard advising them to keep up the feeding regime, have her teeth rasped and start some gentle exercise - this horse has done virtually NOTHING in 7 years. Today I get a message via Facebook from the daughter (13) to the extent that the mare is considered to be emaciated, has no muscle tone and no chance of her ever recovering it and has a problem with her hock. In short she has been told the horse is un-rideable and they are going to get a Vet out. I can catagorically state that in the 4 years I've had her she has never had a days lameness - they did not have her vetted before they took her. I have 'phoned the parents to try and establish the qualifications of the expert who has advised them of this but they have not called me back. What would you do and where do I stand???
 
As you are a private seller I'm pretty sure this is a case of 'buyer beware', even if what they say is true.

They saw her on four different occassions and had every opportunity to have her vetted. I guess I would be worried about the mare's future though and being a very soft touch I'd bring her home!
 
I *think* they have no comeback, but a friend of a friend recently lost a court case having sold a horse who she considered safe enough, but sharp, buyer decided to take her to court, and won :( (Person has since taken the horse back and is V glad she did btw)
If you were asked specifically 'Does she have hock problems?' and you said 'No' (for example) there may be something there though (I think, I'm sure I read that)

How did the receipt of sale read? If it said something along the lines of 'sold as seen and approved' then the buyers have accepted the condition in effect.
I might be talking rubbish, but that's the understanding I have

J&C
 
They did not ask any questions about her soundness. I volunteered that she has never been lame in the time I've had her. They've spent hours with her over the last 3 weeks. As they are on a budget (£800 for the horse) I've also dug out tack and delivered her FOC. I think I'm most annoyed that the parents haven't contacted me about this - that I was messaged by a 13 year old girl who is obviously very upset by the words of wisdom from the people at the livery yard.
 
Sounds to me that the people you sold your mare to are incompetent time waster's !!!

For parents to let a 13 year old take on a brood mare to bring on, no matter how safe she seems to be in a field seems a bit crazy to me. Not only that, once the mare gets some weight and muscle she will most likely liven up from feeling better.

The fact is it depends on what you wrote on the recite... I always put sold as seen. Unfortunatly, it's your word against theirs.

You could always offer them their money back (minis your time and delivery/pick up ect) I wouldn't want to leave a horse with someone like that.

They took a risk , they should have had a vetting done, and take the mare on slowly. I bet there are some 'know it alls' at the livery yard, and upset the kid.

Or you could just ignore everything until an adult contacts you...
 
I did stress that she would need time - lots of it. A friend took on another of my broodmares last July and only now is the mare starting to lose the typical brrodmare shape. It's been a lot of hard work over the winter to add muscle tone and condition without ending up with a fat horse. I've had another message, again via FB, to tell me just how much the mare is eating. They seem to think that as soon as she finishes her haylage net she should have another!! At least she'll be putting weight on, although rather faster than I would advise. I'll wait to see what the vet/parents have to say. The whole experience has left me very upset, selling horses is a real minefield.
 
even if you weren't a private seller, I still think caveat emptor still stands - you advised that she'd done nothing but breeding foals for several years and that she was in poorish condition, requiring building up.

As long as what you say happened did actually happen (I'm SO not saying I think it didn't, just noting that we're only seeing one side of the story and conversations), then I don't think there's anything further for you to do or any responsibilities for you to the buyers.

Don't be disheartened, it sounds like they have just realised what a lot they've taken on & how much work feeding up a horse for weight gain is :)
 
I would stop talking to the girl. If the parents have a complaint against you, then they need to contact you directly, but as a private seller I don't think they have much of a leg to stand on.
 
How miserable for you and how irresponsible of the parents. It appears that some livery yard residents have completed vet training, are BHSI and animal behaviorists!! Wait and see what the vet comes up with but I would be wanting to be present when he comes and/or to see a written report before i made any decisions. Rather than pay the vet now why didn't they get the mare vetted in the first place?
Knowing where you are based I'm sure if any of your horses were emaciated someone would have said something, I have been past there recently and all looked good.
Why are people SO stupid??
 
Thank you for saying that - my horses are indeed in a very public place and I've not received a single complaint about them. This mare does need weight on, last foal was weaned in November. I've worked on this over the last couple of months, she'll show a huge improvement once the grass comes. One of the reasons I moved off a livery yard was the constant input from 'experts'.
 
I wouldn't worry too much. Its a 13 year old at the end of the day! Her parents may not even know yet!

Its strange that nobody has ever picked up on the state of your horses before, or that these buyers didn't notice on any of their 4 visits! They weren't even worried enough to have her vetted!

Its obvious that some know it all at their livery yard has started on them as new targets, and that the girl has fallen for it.

Nobody is going to spend much on solicitors etc when they paid £800! You could always offer to take the horse back minus a chunk for your troubles - finding tack and delivering etc.
 
depends how you sold her and what you wrote on the receipt. as you breed is this run as a business? or purely a hobby? if you are unhappy with the sale i would offer to buy her back less the cost of delivery/collection and re advertising? so i would offer £500. if you are not in the position to buy back i would check your copy of the receipt and the wording. ideally should state height age color. price paid. option to vet not taken, sold as seen tried and approved. but if you sold her as a private sellar then i am afraid it is buyer beware,. good luck. hope the 13 yr old hasnt been charging around on her like a loon and made her stiff/lame.
 
I'm just a hobby breeder, I have 1 or 2 foals a year as I enjoy have the youngsters. The current market is not encouraging me to continue to breed hence I have sold this mare. I will take on board the advice about the receipt and will wait to hear from the parents. I suspect they have not fully appreciated the time and effort involved in bringing a broodmare back into full work despite me telling this on several occasions. The 'experts' as the yard sound like they have gone to town. This little mare will never be anything other than a 'happy hack' - but that's exactly what they told me they were looking for!
 
What I don't understand is why the mare was under weight in the first place. If she is receiving enough haylage she should not be underweight. I have never had a horse drop weight in the winter, ever. If she is under weight, then why can't she have ad lib haylage? It is no worse than being on plentiful grass which you seem quite happy with.

However, I do not think these people have any comeback at all. They sound as though they are very novice and clueless. Obviously the others at the livery were shocked at the appearance of the mare and maybe been a bit OTT with their comments. Either that or it is a 13 yar old getting her facts wrong.
 
From my experience many horses kept in livery yards are over weight, so compared to them your mare may have looked poor. Don't mean everyone who keeps their horses on yards has a podgy animal, it was just the way at the yards I have been on.

Might it not have been better to sort her weight first then sell her on? If she's had the drain on her system of constant foals inside & at foot for 7 (?) years, then it isn't surprising she is taking time to improve.
 
The main issue with this mare is lack of muscle, espacially over her quarters and top-line - extra weight would conceal this to some extent but the fact remains that she needs time and exercise to build up the muscle. I think it is highly irresponsible for this child to be told the mare will never reagin muscle mass and tone - that's nonsense.
All my horses lose some weight over the winter period and then gain it over the summer, especially those with foals at foot. I tend to agree with Pip6 - compared to the rest of the horses at livery she will look poor. She is what she is - a broodmare requiring time to bring her back into work. I appreciate all the advice, thank you for taking the time to respond.
 
amymay said:
I fail to see why that means she should look underweight or poor.......
Click to expand...

Then clearly you haven't seen a mare who has done her foal well, to her own loss. Those mares & foals are very hard. If you overfeed the mare, she is likely to put it all straight into her foal, leading to a monster foal, who is at risk of OCD.

Broodmares look a very different shape to in work mares.

From the sounds of things, she is a mare who has done her foals well, and needs a bit of time to herself now - which the spring grass & good feeding will sort.

Topline will come from work when she is ready to do it.

Sounds a case of livery yard 'experts' preying on some novice owners tbh.
 
Thank you CrazyMare - you've hit the nail on the head! I weaned her last foal at 5 months because she was pulling the mare down - everything I put into the mare she passed on to the foal. She has improved since being weaned, summer grass and gentle exercise will do her the world of good - as will one on one attention - she was right at the bottom of my herd. The buyers have had every opportunity to walk away or have her vetted before I delivered her - there was no pressure at all. I've been scrupulously honest with them about her weight and general condition - her ribs are just to say visible but having stood in a field for several years she lacks muscle. I'm very upset at the implication that the mare has been neglected in any way.
 
There is no neglect in what you have done, & you have been honest so have no fear of comeback. With (wonderful) hindsight, more could have been written on the receipt but 4 tries & more than enough chance for them to vet or get another opinion.

The only shame is that this kid seems to have landed in a yard of less than nice people (hardly your fault). I've been there, & seen the 'knowledgable' ones, who I have to say had fat show ponies, see easy prey in a young girl lacking confidence. You have to walk away as you have no control over the situation now, she is sold. If the parents do contact you, then that's a different matter to deal with (record all exchanges, verbal & written). If they haven't done so already then I doubt they will, as the experts at the yard are probably berating them for not having a vetting done. You have a clear conscience as you have treated them fairly & with honesty, fingers crossed for the mare.
 
Even one of my mini shets lost weight whilst feeding her foal. The baby was born in July and I weaned her in December because the mum was becoming so thin,despite almost 24/7 turnout, a daily feed and ad lib hay. This mare usually lives on fresh air and looks like a pudding on legs. So it can happen.
 
OP, it sounds like you have done everything right by this mare, and have been nice and honest with the new owners.

I feel for the poor mare, obviously these people have totally misunderstood the horse and are relying on twaddle.

If it were me, and I was in a position to do so, I would offer them half what they paid for her and sell her to people who actually understand her needs.

There's nothing worse than a novice who think they know it all :-(
 
As well as the above, as she'd been with you for 4 years, the stress of moving can also make a horse shed weight, sometimes quite quickly. I can see now, a year on, that one of our two didn't take too well to moving to join us, followed by all the snow. Last year he got skinny and I struggled to keep weight on. This year he's far happier and is quite porky, I've not changed anything feed-wise, if anything a bit less food and hay.
 
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