Where do we stand legally? Deposit/vetting issues

[Muddy unicorn]

I’m hoping someone may be able to explain the ramifications of a horse-buying dilemma.

My daughter had a second viewing on a horse which is on sales livery with a dealer. She really liked him, we sent videos of her riding to her instructor and our vet and both thought he looked good and worth making an offer on. I negotiated a price directly with the owner and sent her a 10% deposit pending the vetting.

Our insurance company insists on a 5 stage vetting plus X-rays for horses over £10,000 and I was clear with both the seller and her agent that the vetting would include X-rays. I’ve booked a vetting for next week and had to pay the vet in advance. However, we’ve been contacted by another forum use who had the same horse vetted a few weeks ago and although he was sound for the 5 stage, the X-rays revealed multiple issues, each relatively minor in isolation, but together point to the likelihood of the horse becoming unsound in the next few months.

I’m not sure where we stand now. I can’t go ahead knowing what I now know but if I walk away will I lose the deposit? If we go ahead with the vetting knowing that the likely outcome is the horse won’t be considered suitable for its intended purpose then I’m knowingly throwing away hundreds of pounds on a pointless process. The previous would-be purchaser passed on the findings to the owner who said they’d inform the dealer so they were both aware of potential issues when we came to view. Incidentally, I’d originally enquired about a different horse but the dealer said he wouldn’t be responsive enough for my daughter so suggested she try this horse instead.

WWYD?

 

[Rowreach]

Does the person who gave you this information mind you telling the owner/agent that they've spoken to you? And have you seen the actual vet report and xrays, so you are absolutely sure they relate to the same horse, and it isn't someone being untruthful or underhand because they have fallen out with the owner or something?

Personally if I was sure of the facts I would go straight to the agent and say you have this information and for that reason won't be going ahead with the vetting or purchase and please would they return your deposit immediately.

 

[FestiveFuzz]

So sorry to hear of your issues, buying the right horse is hard enough without dealers misleading people! As Rowreach suggested if the person who warned you is happy for you to let the dealer know you know I’d be explaining the horse has been misrepresented, and is unlikely to be considered suitable for purpose bearing in mind what you now know so you would like the deposit back.

Would you mind PMing me who the dealer was please? We’ve had a few come back to us this week saying the horses that were formerly sold subject to vetting are back on the market and wondering if any of them are linked.

 

[Goldenstar]

Walk away lose the deposit .
I would tell the agent the story ask directly if it was true and then try to get the deposit returned if it’s not going to fly walk away .
the vetting will cost 600 or so cancel it ask for your money back you should be ok on that did you pay for the vetting with a credit card ?

 

[bonny]

Will you get your money back from the vet ?

 

[Rowreach]

Walk away lose the deposit .
I would tell the agent the story ask directly if it was true and then try to get the deposit returned if it’s not going to fly walk away .
the vetting will cost 600 or so cancel it ask for your money back you should be ok on that did you pay for the vetting with a credit card ?

If the story is true then the agent will have no grounds for keeping the deposit, and there would be a potential claim against them for the vet's deposit as well, if the vet refused to refund it. (I imagine the vet wants paying in advance so they don't have to chase the money afterwards, but would probably be ok if the vetting was cancelled in reasonable time).

 

[Muddy unicorn]

Walk away lose the deposit .
I would tell the agent the story ask directly if it was true and then try to get the deposit returned if it’s not going to fly walk away .
the vetting will cost 600 or so cancel it ask for your money back you should be ok on that did you pay for the vetting with a credit card ?

The deposit was more than the vetting so if I have to lose one I’d prefer it to be the smaller amount ... I had to pay both deposit and vetting by bank transfer

 

[Red-1]

The deposit was more than the vetting so if I have to lose one I’d prefer it to be the smaller amount ... I had to pay both deposit and vetting by bank transfer

I once thought a horse would fail the vet, but for reasons I won't go into here, I needed the vetting to go ahead.

I spoke to the vet beforehand, they went directly to the part where I thought the horse would fail, it failed, my bill was considerably smaller than a full vetting.

However... If the vetting was recent, it could still be 'in force' so you could 'buy' that vetting. Then the horse has 'failed' and you can get the money back without paying out for another vet.

Or, you could tell the agent that this is the way it will go, and ask for the money back.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

As the horse is on sales livery, I think my agreement is only with the owner- that’s who I’ve paid the deposit to - do the same rules about misrepresentation apply to sales livery where the dealer is acting as agent?

 

[Red-1]

As the horse is on sales livery, I think my agreement is only with the owner- that’s who I’ve paid the deposit to - do the same rules about misrepresentation apply to sales livery where the dealer is acting as agent?

Yes, it is a private sale. But, if they are using a sales livery, presumably the deal is struck with the agent, on the owner's behalf? Or maybe you are dealing direct with the owner, using the facilities at the sales livery?

 

[meleeka]

I’d make sure you have the facts absolutely correct and then speak to whoever you negotiated the sale with. If it’s there in black and white then I can’t see how they can have any grounds for keeping the deposit. In fact they’d be guilty of mis-selling the horse which could be proven in court if you have the X-ray results.

 

[ihatework]

I think you probably need to speak to someone legally minded.

X-ray interpretation is so variable and unreliable. I could go on, and on, about Xrays (but will spare you!).

In your shoes at this stage I’d open up dialogue with the sellers, say you have heard such & such and what is the deal here? See where the conversation takes you before you jump to any hasty conclusions

 

[AUB]

(Danish lawyer here). Assuming that it is the same horse, that it in fact has the x-ray findings, that the seller knows this and that it can actually be proven:

The seller (and by extension their representative, the dealer) has an obligation to loyally inform you of anything of importance regarding the horse. You’ve negotiated the price directly with the seller so I don’t see any reason why the seller haven’t informed you of the horses’ known x-ray status - even if it’s minor issues they should tell you. That actually makes it fraudulent for them to accept the deposit, imo. And on that basis you would probably be entitled to have the deposit returned.

 

[Palindrome]

Talk with your vet about doing the X-rays first as there is a suspicion there is a problem there. They can stop the vetting if they see a problem.

 

[Melody Grey]

I’d ask the seller directly whether they know of the horse failing a vetting/ having unsatisfactory x-rays whilst in their care. their response will tell you all you need to know.
Any reputable seller would be returning your deposit ASAP. If they don’t then it’s legal advice you need.

 

[ycbm]

(Danish lawyer here). Assuming that it is the same horse, that it in fact has the x-ray findings, that the seller knows this and that it can actually be proven:

The seller (and by extension their representative, the dealer) has an obligation to loyally inform you of anything of importance regarding the horse. You’ve negotiated the price directly with the seller so I don’t see any reason why the seller haven’t informed you of the horses’ known x-ray status - even if it’s minor issues they should tell you. That actually makes it fraudulent for them to accept the deposit, imo. And on that basis you would probably be entitled to have the deposit returned.

It's not the same in the UK as in Denmark, I'm afraid.

An agency sale where the horse is sold by a dealer on behalf of a private seller is not normally covered by the sale of goods act, it's effectively a private sale.

In a private sale, there is no obligation to disclose anything except vices, there is only an obligation to truthfully answer any questions asked, before the sale is agreed and any deposit taken.
.

 

[ycbm]

This sale has been agreed subject to a future vetting. A horse can fail one day with one vet and pass the next day with the same, or more likely another, vet.

The vendor, I think, can legally keep your deposit unless you put the horse through a second vetting. Unless they lied in answer to any of your questions.

Morally is another matter.

 

[Gingerwitch]

Who owns the x Ray's and will they send them to your usual vet for an opinion before having the vetting or requesting your deposit back. If any cost you a fee but this should be way lower than the vetting or deposit.

 

[onemoretime]

As the horse is on sales livery, I think my agreement is only with the owner- that’s who I’ve paid the deposit to - do the same rules about misrepresentation apply to sales livery where the dealer is acting as agent?

The onus is on the owner to make sure that the horse has been advertised correctly by the dealer.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

Who owns the x Ray's and will they send them to your usual vet for an opinion before having the vetting or requesting your deposit back. If any cost you a fee but this should be way lower than the vetting or deposit.

I’ve got the X-rays and am sending them to my vet for his opinion

 

[southerncomfort]

Did he actually 'fail' the vetting? Just wondering as you said that the horse was passed as sound.

 

[SO1]

I think you need to talk to the agent and explain the situation.

Just say that you have been informed that the horse was recently x-rayed and failed a vetting with a different vet and ask if that is true. Maybe the sellers are hoping that a different vet will give a different opinion or the sellers vet disagreed with the vet that did the vetting. Explain that you don't want to waste their time by having another vetting and more x-rays done if the horse is going to fail and ask for them to return the deposit.

If they deny the vetting ever took place as you now have the x-rays you can say you have proof. However they may come back to you and say that their vet has disagreed with the findings.

 

[Muddy unicorn]

Update - our vet reviewed the X-rays and agreed it would be too much of a risk along with a couple of probable insurance exclusions. I cancelled the vetting and explained to the seller why we were pulling out and she refunded the full deposit - so I’m not out of pocket but my daughter is still horseless and looks like we won’t be able to view anything else for quite some time..

 

[ihatework]

Good news, no need to panic after all then!

 

[Red-1]

Update - our vet reviewed the X-rays and agreed it would be too much of a risk along with a couple of probable insurance exclusions. I cancelled the vetting and explained to the seller why we were pulling out and she refunded the full deposit - so I’m not out of pocket but my daughter is still horseless and looks like we won’t be able to view anything else for quite some time..

Did she have the grace to look a little shamefaced that you had fund out?

 

[Melody Grey]

Admittedly a pain that you’re still searching at a difficult time, but a lucky escape I think.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

I’m endlessly appalled at the behaviour of some dealers. Were they hoping you not vet such an expensive horse? Utter craziness.

 

[Rowreach]

And good for the other buyer sharing the xrays with you.