Where do we stand - Reggie

I'm curious to ask those of you that say they would never have a horse castrated standing why? I was under the impression that it was a lot safer than to do them under general anesthetic.
I know of one horse done lying down who spilled his guts all over the paddock not once but twice after waking up. Amazingly, the vet took a chance, stuffed the guts back in and horse is still alive and well years later. I wasn't present, but as you can imagine, its become something of a legend around the yard.
Disclaimer: I currently own mares and have never had a horse castrated, I'm just curious.
 
Titchy Pony said:
I'm curious to ask those of you that say they would never have a horse castrated standing why? I was under the impression that it was a lot safer than to do them under general anesthetic.
I know of one horse done lying down who spilled his guts all over the paddock not once but twice after waking up. Amazingly, the vet took a chance, stuffed the guts back in and horse is still alive and well years later. I wasn't present, but as you can imagine, its become something of a legend around the yard.
Disclaimer: I currently own mares and have never had a horse castrated, I'm just curious.
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Yikes! I’m glad I didn’t read that before my BOGOF was gelded!
 
Titchy Pony said:
I'm curious to ask those of you that say they would never have a horse castrated standing why? I was under the impression that it was a lot safer than to do them under general anesthetic.
I know of one horse done lying down who spilled his guts all over the paddock not once but twice after waking up. Amazingly, the vet took a chance, stuffed the guts back in and horse is still alive and well years later. I wasn't present, but as you can imagine, its become something of a legend around the yard.
Disclaimer: I currently own mares and have never had a horse castrated, I'm just curious.
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Because that kind of complication is pretty uncommon, and castration under a GA costs a heck of a lot more.

Some of us come from the days when GA for horses was rarely done because of the risks of a GA. At that time no horse would be done under GA but many were cast with ropes and forcibly held down.
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ycbm said:
Because that kind of complication is pretty uncommon, and castration under a GA costs a heck of a lot more.

Some of us come from the days when GA for horses was rarely done because of the risks of a GA. At that time no horse would be done under GA but many were cast with ropes and forcibly held down.
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Thanks for your answer. Sorry, just so I don't confuse myself, would that mean you would prefer a standing castration?
 
I would ask the vet exactly what happened, just for my information and understanding as i would do with anything i dont understand, not to point blame.

I had a large sarciod surgery cut way from my horses sheath. The vet knew him and us well and explained what he'd do. The vet then cut away the large lump and stapled the wound together and i was told to keep him moving and to turn him out.

Of course his sheath became swollen, but wasnt massive, however a large hole were the sides had come together, with a slightly swollen sheath, which was under him (gravity probably helped!) and him walking around a field, meant that the staples had fallen out by the time i went to bring him in. He now had a large hole on his sheath which was constantly dripping blood.

We then had to get the emergency vet, who couldnt believe that a vet would use staples for a wound like this, as it would never had held and she stitched him up. It also got infected, which could have happened anyway, but the above didnt help.

i perhaps could have had a chat with the first vet, but i just paid the bills as my pony was OK which was the main thing.
 
Titchy Pony said:
Thanks for your answer. Sorry, just so I don't confuse myself, would that mean you would prefer a standing castration?
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I have had two adult horses done and neither time did the vet even suggest that a GA was necessary. I would be guided by the vet but I would be asking a vet that has no hospital to pay for, not one that does.
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Palindrome said:
Why should she have insisted? Why do you think she was out of her depth?

As an aside, my vet will only do castration at the clinic as they want the horse in as clean an environment as possible. One breeder thought it was a waste of money so she would use a different vet for castration. This other vet does them in the field and the breeder hasn't had a problem so far.
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because she was questioning her ability to do it verbally before she started and that it was anunusual presentation. She also thought it wasnt quite right when she finished… i dont know for sure but as a human dr any young medic that talks like that is out of their depth… or at least at the edge of their knowledge. If you are starting a surgical procedure my training has alwaysto be easily within your comfort zone and if not have more senior support close at hand … which she would have had in house. Just my opinion and experience of real world medicine…
 
I'm sorry this happened to your boy, unfortunately it is just something that can happen at gelding. My 9 month old mule colt was also gelded on Friday, he was knocked out with ketamine and had a stitch put in as donkeys are known to be bleeders! He has been quite swollen but fortunately all seems fine. My vets were very transparent with the potential risks, which do increase with age.
 
blitznbobs said:
because she was questioning her ability to do it verbally before she started and that it was anunusual presentation. She also thought it wasnt quite right when she finished… i dont know for sure but as a human dr any young medic that talks like that is out of their depth… or at least at the edge of their knowledge. If you are starting a surgical procedure my training has alwaysto be easily within your comfort zone and if not have more senior support close at hand … which she would have had in house. Just my opinion and experience of real world medicine…
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Thank you. That does back up my gut feeling. Rightly or wrongly. X
 
I think your post has an underlying tone of blame to it.

It's surgery. Even in the most routine surgeries, things go wrong and unexpected things happen.

She gave you options.

Owners need to begin to realise no one is perfect. Even Vets. Good results cannot be guaranteed, no matter how hard they try.

In a profession where more are leaving than joining, and with the highest suicide rate, I think owners need to realise Vets are human too. If your practice did not feel her competent, then trust me, they would not have sent her. It is more hassle than its worth for them.

Sometimes unexpected things just happen.
 
ycbm said:
At that time no horse would be done under GA but many were cast with ropes and forcibly held down.
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That was the norm in my childhood. Horrible thing to watch and very distressing for the colt. Thank God those days are gone, but sadly not quite over here. One of my donkeys was a failed 'home gelding job' by his then owner, he was glad to hand him over to us for a token payment as he thought he was dying anyway. :mad: One testicle was left crushed but still half attached. By the time we got him it was too late for our vet to risk trying to rectify the total botch job, but he is none the worse for ware and has been with us now for over 15 years. He was very terrified of men though for several years. 😢
 
TheMule said:
Just to add- my vets don’t usually book geldings on Fridays due to the increased need for an emergency call out on a weekend.
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I think its time I looked for another vet practice to be honest. Ive had a few bad experiences in close time scale recently.

Things are just not sitting well with me.
 
dorsetladette said:
I think its time I looked for another vet practice to be honest. Ive had a few bad experiences in close time scale recently.

Things are just not sitting well with me.
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If you don't feel that you can trust your vets and their judgement then it's definitely time to change. It sounds like you suspect the first vet was out of her depth- and you may well be right - but the practice will never admit to it.
Thankfully Reggie is doing well now. A friend of mine had a similar experience, only the horse colicked on top of everything and the vet didn't seem in any hurry to come back.
Some irreversible damage was done to the horse as although he survived the night from hell, he remained colic prone and died of it a few years later.
It's not in our nature to question vets but I'd always try and halt proceedings if I felt the vet wasn't confident.
 
Poor you, how stressful, and worrying for you. Glad to hear that Reggie is doing okay now.

About all the faults having happened recently, the surgery thing with Reggie doesn't sound to me like the veterinarian definitely did something wrong, without more as if sometimes crap still just happens.
But only you can tell if you feel that the problems with Reggie's castration, and/or the other problems you've had with them lately, could be down to a good veterinarian/receptionist making human mistakes, maybe a new computer upgrade causing trouble with the invoices, or a sign of the vet clinic no longer being good at their work?
Sometimes bad things just seems to come grouped together. By the way, how did they handle the problem with the incorrect invoices? Once they found out it was they who had done wrong, where they apologetic?

Owning up to their mistake, and apologising for it can go a long way, at least with me. I've used the same veterinarian clinic since 1991. The latest fault I remember is that one of my appointments went *poof* gone a few years ago, because their computer couldn't handle that one owner could have two appointments, for two different pets, one hour apart, on the same day. I noticed they'd only sent me one SMS reminder about next days vet visits, called them, and fortunately they could still squeeze the other one in. That time I simply got an apology, and they said they'd immediately put someone onto fixing the problem so it didn't happen again.

But I know it has happened at least on 2 previous occasions that they've done some mistake, because though they happened so many years ago that I've forgotten what one of those two mistakes was, I still have 1 cat bed, and 1 cat hideout which I got as part of their apologies. I know that one of the mistakes was a blood sample from my first dog Nessie, that someone forgot to send off to a laboratory. I presume they realised it when someone found it the next day, they called, and we had to go back to them, and take a new blood sample. So confusingly enough I have a cat bed which we call Nessie's bed, though Nessie was a dog.

As said, I don't even remember what the other mistake was, but here's a picture of the cat hideout I got as part of my vet clinics second apology: (though it doesn't really show in my bad indoor lights, it's actually bright yellow, like a piece of cheese, and the brown applications are supposed to look like holes in the piece of cheese)

ODZS3viA_o.jpg


Mistakes can happen, it's how a company handles their mistakes that makes me keep coming back. Or not.
 
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Sossigpoker said:
If you don't feel that you can trust your vets and their judgement then it's definitely time to change. It sounds like you suspect the first vet was out of her depth- and you may well be right - but the practice will never admit to it.
Thankfully Reggie is doing well now. A friend of mine had a similar experience, only the horse colicked on top of everything and the vet didn't seem in any hurry to come back.
Some irreversible damage was done to the horse as although he survived the night from hell, he remained colic prone and died of it a few years later.
It's not in our nature to question vets but I'd always try and halt proceedings if I felt the vet wasn't confident.
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A couple of observations on what you have written; the colic-prone horse was more likely to have been so BEFORE he was gelded than because of it; and you can hardly halt a castration mid-procedure......
 
I have only known of one to go a bit wrong. A strapping great 4yo tb who had giant knackers. Done under standing sedation and all went well. His problem was he got an infection. Again not a huge biggy, he got a catheter put in his neck and was given a load of drugs over a few days. The biggest issue was the vet who came out to swop the catheter. She drove into the yard and into the stable block wall. Fell out of her car giggling, staggered round the back of her car and couldn't figure out how to open it. She was absolutely plastered. Don't worry as soon as I saw the nick of her getting out of the car I rang the practice and demanded a different, sober vet turn up. She got driven home from the yard by the other vet and never worked another day in Britain. She had to go back to Australia to carry on being a vet.
 
You need another practice - one who can run as a complete practice, not offering transactional services.

Incident aside, as this is just technical delivery which we know can have complications - what I find more worrying is your comments about billing’s and internal processes. If they don’t have these right, they assign incorrect resources to jobs and it puts everyone under pressure, the client and the vet.

Go with your gut. If it this practice you are losing confidence in, move to another.

Vets are smart people with amazing skills but as in all consulting practices, if the practice is not run as a whole with client and staff wellbeing at the centre - this happens.

I recently moved practices after 15yrs and the absolute hurt in my loyal vets eyes still haunts me as he just didn’t understand why. But the practice supporting him were appalling impacting care of my horse and really frustrating me. So I moved. New practice is twice as expensive but amazing. Vet skills are the same but they really deliver in client care as well as horse care.

Move practices now.
 
Bonnie Allie said:
You need another practice - one who can run as a complete practice, not offering transactional services.

Incident aside, as this is just technical delivery which we know can have complications - what I find more worrying is your comments about billing’s and internal processes. If they don’t have these right, they assign incorrect resources to jobs and it puts everyone under pressure, the client and the vet.

Go with your gut. If it this practice you are losing confidence in, move to another.

Vets are smart people with amazing skills but as in all consulting practices, if the practice is not run as a whole with client and staff wellbeing at the centre - this happens.

I recently moved practices after 15yrs and the absolute hurt in my loyal vets eyes still haunts me as he just didn’t understand why. But the practice supporting him were appalling impacting care of my horse and really frustrating me. So I moved. New practice is twice as expensive but amazing. Vet skills are the same but they really deliver in client care as well as horse care.

Move practices now.
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Apologies - should have added, you need to call the practice manager and tell them you are leaving due to poor practice management and that you do not want your move to a new practice to be blamed on technical delivery of a vet. If you don’t do this they will internally blame the vet, because it’s easy.
 
ycbm said:
Because that kind of complication is pretty uncommon, and castration under a GA costs a heck of a lot more.

Some of us come from the days when GA for horses was rarely done because of the risks of a GA. At that time no horse would be done under GA but many were cast with ropes and forcibly held down.
.
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Yes, but they had some anesthesia, a mask like a nose bag was put on and something - ether? - was poured and then they were supposed to slowly sink to the ground. One of ours backed away suddenly, not liking the smell and galloped off across the field, only to collapse in a heap. So the vet raced over to get the job done while the colt was out cold. Finish the gelding, remove the mask and they got groggily to their feet. Vet did not like stables, preferred outdoors and it was always a bit tense as he was very precise as to how the horse was held due to the danger of a broken back??? He must have come across that at some stage of his career.

That's how it was done in the good old days.
 
Orangehorse said:
Yes, but they had some anesthesia, a mask like a nose bag was put on and something - ether? - was poured and then they were supposed to slowly sink to the ground. One of ours backed away suddenly, not liking the smell and galloped off across the field, only to collapse in a heap. So the vet raced over to get the job done while the colt was out cold. Finish the gelding, remove the mask and they got groggily to their feet. Vet did not like stables, preferred outdoors and it was always a bit tense as he was very precise as to how the horse was held due to the danger of a broken back??? He must have come across that at some stage of his career.

That's how it was done in the good old days.
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The ones i know of were dropped with ropes there was no anaesthesia except local. The last one I heard of done this way was only 20 years ago, very old school vet.
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ycbm said:
The ones i know of were dropped with ropes there was no anaesthesia except local. The last one I heard of done this way was only 20 years ago, very old school vet.
.
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I saw a couple gelded that way about 25 years back. Rope on the Headcollar, trip wire type thing on a foreleg and get the horse down onto one shoulder, push it over and tie up legs, sit a spare man on the neck and then inject local into the area and go to work.

Scary stuff to watch, and didn’t do their tempers and attitude any good but it worked. The vets I saw could drop a horse in about two minutes from getting hold of the leg to injection.
 
Cortez said:
I have seen the Amish castrate heavy work horse colts by stringing them up by the head over a tree branch with front legs off the ground, using a kitchen knife.
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Grim 😢 but I've seen photos of Amish work horses dropped off at the US kill pens in a shocking state so not surprising

I was riding in Chile when the gaucho disappeared for a few hours. We were told he'd been helping castrate a few horses. I doubt there was anaesthetic. He then proceeded to use the same knife to skin the sheep for dinner. He may have used the same knife to carve the cooked sheep but I was down a few glasses of red by then.
 
SEL said:
Grim 😢 but I've seen photos of Amish work horses dropped off at the US kill pens in a shocking state so not surprising

I was riding in Chile when the gaucho disappeared for a few hours. We were told he'd been helping castrate a few horses. I doubt there was anaesthetic. He then proceeded to use the same knife to skin the sheep for dinner. He may have used the same knife to carve the cooked sheep but I was down a few glasses of red by then.
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Well, I suppose it's all just meat at the end of the day?
 
Nari said:
I can't see how any blame attaches to the vet. She explained before she started that he was on the large size and gave you the option of hospital. She did extra during the op to make sure it was done properly. She left you with normal post op instructions and then, when you weren't happy came straight back out and sought a second opinion when she found a complication. They then got him safe to refer to a hospital. Basically she did everything right including explaining to you before she started that this was on the limit of what she washappy with doing standing. No-one is to blame, it's just one of those things. Maybe as gelding is so common we tend to forget it is an op and does carry risks?
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This tbh.
Hope Reggie is ok
 
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