Where do you stand on judges and scoring - Dressage

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Worried1

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Does it frustrate you when you have ridden what you think is a lovely test only to find that you have a disapointing score?

Does you think it makes a difference if you are in the first half or the bottom half of the class?

Do percentages at venues vary depending on the judge? Say for instance do have any favourite judges who you like riding for and others who you try to avoid?
 
No matter where I do dressage if I think I rode a nice test I get a cr@p score and if I think it went awful I always get a good score and placed!
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I do have judges that I know like my horse and always mark me well so obviously I prefer to ride under them
 
I find that there are judges in my area who are firm but fair so to get a good score under them is much more gratifying than riding an OK test and getting a ridiculous score!
 
i always give myself a percentage after the test, and a general score for how happy i was with how the horse went, how i rode it, etc.
if the judge's opinion is the same as mine, then great.
if the judge loved it but i wasn't happy with it, then i shrug my shoulders, and make the most of it, i guess. doesn't change my opinion of how it was, though, just a lucky day.
if i was happy with it but the judge slated it, it really annoys me, but what can you do... it's just someone's opinion. if it's a very good judge, then i take it on board and really note the comments. if it's a crap judge (and they are out there, unfortunately), then i ignore it. just an unlucky day.
of course, this is at BD and unaff dr. at BE, where it matters so flipping much, i am really annoyed if i get what i think is an unjustly bad mark. even more so as they usually read it out just as i ride to the first showjump, and it can be really off-putting!
 
I figure at the end of my life I'll have the right number of ribbons, just not always for the right things!
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Every time I wonder if I've been "robbed" I remember the judge that leaned out of the box at the end of a test on my old horse and said excitedly, "I've always LOVED this horse!" You tell me she wasn't generous!
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I guess it used to bother me but now I figure life's too short and it's not worth driving myself nuts over it. It IS disappointing when a horse someone has high hopes for or is for sale gets an unexpectedly low score but that's business.

A coach I had when I started to event used to send me into the ring with, "Make them take it away from you!" It's good advice and works well as a mental set up for me - ride so well, so accurately, and so consistently that the judge has to look for reasons to take marks away from you. They may not like your horse or the way you ride or whatever but don't hand them mistakes to mark you down!
 
What I find the most frustrating is getting a score sheet with straight sixes, but no specific comments at all only something like "nice horse and rider". It is so unhelpful - surely if the entire test was worth sixes, maybe the judge could briefly point out what would be needed to turn those sixes into sevens or eights.

I don't mind getting a poor score, so long as it looks like the judge was using the full range of marks. If I messed up a movement, I'm quite happy to get a four. But conversely, if something was well done, I'd like to think that the judge was using the full scale of marks and not sticking to the "safe" sixes or sevens.

I support WC's campaign for half marks. But I also think that the coefficients and collectives could be tweaked to ensure that the best test gets the highest marks, and not the flashiest horse/most famous rider.......(not that I think this happens a lot, but it does happen sometimes!).
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That's useful advice Cruiser thanks!

I give my tests a mark when I've finished them and like someone else has already said, if you get wildly above that or wildly below that then it's either a lucky or unlucky day. I prefer to get the mark I deserve, but it doesn't always work like that and yes I suppose it does frustrate me a bit?
 
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Does it frustrate you when you have ridden what you think is a lovely test only to find that you have a disapointing score?

Does you think it makes a difference if you are in the first half or the bottom half of the class?

Do percentages at venues vary depending on the judge? Say for instance do have any favourite judges who you like riding for and others who you try to avoid?

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First point: No - it just recomfirms me belief that I know bog-all about dressage and have a stupidly long way to go before I am actually any good and have a clue.

Second point: Not really, though I suspect going last after a long day doesn't help much. However I also think that errors early on mean they don't give you the benefit of the doubt if something goes a bit wrong later - that's human nature.

Third point: I try and go to venues where I know they use listed judges (as I don't compete BD). Wierdly I always score better at these than I do BE (where the judges are higher list normally than the BE level I compete at because they are judging up to Adv Med whereas at BE I only compete Novice). No idea what that means though!
 
I don't worry about the score because you can't account for different people - what is a better measure is how you compare to everyone else.

There's a judge I know that I'd struggle to get less than 70% with, but I know that's no bearing on our performance when half the class gets +70%!
 
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No matter where I do dressage if I think I rode a nice test I get a cr@p score and if I think it went awful I always get a good score and placed!
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I find EXACTLY the same!! Which is totally confusing...
 
I am worried about my competition tomorrow because my little carthorse is following a very stunning horse ridden by a professional, and I do think that affects the judges in some way. When they have just seen a superb test and then see one that is just ok, I do feel they mark the latter down more than if they had gone before the professional.
 
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What I find the most frustrating is getting a score sheet with straight sixes, but no specific comments at all only something like "nice horse and rider". It is so unhelpful - surely if the entire test was worth sixes, maybe the judge could briefly point out what would be needed to turn those sixes into sevens or eights.

I don't mind getting a poor score, so long as it looks like the judge was using the full range of marks. If I messed up a movement, I'm quite happy to get a four. But conversely, if something was well done, I'd like to think that the judge was using the full scale of marks and not sticking to the "safe" sixes or sevens.

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That is such "cheap" judging, isn't it? An "O" judge (in both Dressage and Eventing) I know lectured at a judges' symposium recently and she absolutely ranted about this "cowardly" attitude. I've done a fair bit of scribing and sometimes this happens because the performance really is consistently average but I suspect it often happens because the judge lacks the courage of his/her conviction. At least, as you say, let people know how they might improve!

I had an eye opening experience a few years ago. I was riding a very pretty Dutch-bred 5-year-old who was not the flashiest mover and could occasionally be a bit "inattentive", throwing in a change or such if she got excited, but worked quite correctly much of the time. She also went consistently slightly out in front of the vertical as she was naturally a little low in front at that point and I was determined not to wreck her for the long term by cranking her nose in. She usually got very average scores from local judges, with lots of comments to effectively "bring her nose in" which made my blood boil, but what can you do? At the biggest national show we took her to, which was also a CDI, they had a screw up and one of the FEI judges ended up judging our lower level class. The horse won both her tests and was Champion! I'm sure there were people who wanted to pummel me as she didn't do any "better" than normal!
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The judge was kind enough to talk to me a bit at the end and was very encouraging, telling me not to dampen her spirit or ruin her by banging on her for consistency and a pulled together frame at that stage. He took her "greeness" as given and gave her marks for what she did correctly as part of the process, not just picking things apart. It was a really interesting and educational experience.

I had another lovely young horse to show that lost a "Suitable to Become" class because she googled her eyes and looked like a baby once or twice. A real "Steady Eddie" won and the judge publicaly remarked that she wanted a potential "school horse type" which would suit the "average" rider. Um. . . okay. Not usually the point of that class . . . I thought the owner (a judge herself) was going to commit a murder!
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Anyway, I few experience like that really give you an idea of how individual judges' opinions can be. The SHOULDN'T be but what can you do?

I would really advise anyone doing any dressage to try to scribe now and then. It's really interesting and gives you a good idea how hard it is to judge. Things happen very quickly, there is no time to second guess and especially if one is not experienced it's easy to end up with a different result than one would like. Most judges keep track of how the tests are "ranking" in the class but even a good judge can get caught out, particularly if the standard is low (someone has to win) or inconsistent.
 
You shouldn't worry about following a flashy horse. I write for a lot of judges and they are very careful to mark what they are seeing snd don't compare. In fact many 'common' horses do beautiful and ACCURATE tests. You lose marks for cutting corners or not riding a true circle - at an advanced comp. the judge was in despair at the number of people riding diamonds instead of circles.
It is very difficult as a rider to be aware of what the judge can see from the ground. All your faults are exposed. Professional riders can work at their faults all day.
 
I am actually considering riding in my maiden name as I feel that I get compared to my OH alot and as you know I am a leisure rider who does it as a hobby.

There are definately some judge who love Diva and forgive her and some judges who absolutely hammer her for a tiny mistake.

This weekend we went out and had the same judge for two classes. He did a much better second test but the judge seemed unable to forgive him for a couple of green errors and carried this into the second test which was unfair.
 
I go out to be judged fairly and correctly (hence competing affiliated) which I believe happens the vast majority of the time. As a trainee BD judge I know how much time, effort and training it takes to become listed so I am more than happy to be judged by these people.
I currently judge unaffiliated and will judge the test in front of me, nothing more, nothing less, it has nothing to do with whether the horse is flashy or not - it needs to be correctly trained and ridden.

Since training for judging and judging myself I have learnt the importance of being very very accurate and being brave and going for things. You risk it going wrong on the day but it will keep your horse forward rather than stifling it and be beneficial for long term training.
And get your horse supple! The amount of horses both unaffiliated and affiliated who are stiff and doddery on turns is astounding!
 
I've just registered BD, & am veturing out for our first aff outing in 2 weeks, a bit scared, but mostly excited. She's a 14hh Welsh x, sometimes difficult as quite spooky, but I just really hope we have a nice time & get judged fairly, not compared to all the giant wb's!!
 
I hate it when you get a judge that doesnt mark "fairly" and is influenced by "the horse" not the test.

I've had many comments about how unsuitable Ellie is for dressage on my score sheets, however i must say last test i did was very complmentry of her
 
It is worth bearing in mind that some of the judges you are talking about are probably unlisted and so largely untrained. At some unaffiliated dressage and events anyone can judge if the organiser thinks they are appropriate. Comments should never be personal or comment on horses unsuitablility.

As a BD listed judge we are trained to mark accurately (it does people no good to get overly inflated scores, as this is not then a true reflection of their training) the work shown to us regardless of whether it is a WB or a Cob we are judging. Then we have to sum up the test concisely, pointing out the good, the not so good and what has to be done in order for the partnership to progress. Sometimes sheets can come out largely 6's because that is what is shown to us- but if this is the case then a constructive comment showing where the improvement needs to be made must be written.

I am aware that not every judge has the knowledge or skill to be able to do this but I do believe that most judges under the BD system are trained in this way and realise they have a duty to mark the work they are shown accurately. I feel some posts (not neccessarily this one) come across as judge bashing where a few unlisted judges seem to taint peoples perception of all judges which annoys me. I work very hard to train, gaiin experience and be the best judge I can and I take my responsibility seriously....... anyway I will get off my soapbox now!
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This might sound a bit like a 'sour grapes' story, but it's not!

I remember one judge, who judged my sister and I doing the same test on our respective horses. At the time, the horses were fairly similar in standard (although they certainly are not now!) and did fairly similar tests.

My horse spooked at someone pushing a pram right up to the edge of the arena and scuttled forward, but I tried to just ride him through it and continue to ride my circle. OK, a bit rushed because he'd got upset but I was proud of myself for carrying on (time was I would have freaked out at the spook and retired- I'm a wuss!). When the score sheet came back I had a 0 for the movement and the comment "no cirlce shown"! I was livid, but unfortunately the video camera batteries had died so I couldn't contest it with the evidence in my hand. Then that judge gave my sister a 9 in her test! No disrespect to my sister, but there was no way, at that time, that she would have produced a movement worthy of a 9!

The differnce- my horse is a chestnut TB and hers is a dark bay warmblood. And I think that's all there was too it.
 
I will never understand dressage scores
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I do get annoyed if someone who I think I am better than gets a better score than me but theres not a lot I can do about it.
Certain judges do like Gin and others dont. I can usually predict my score before ive ridden the test.
 
I can get frustrated my marks. I often think I try 'too' hard, so I don't relax. However, the reality is the judge has 20 years + more experience, in comparison to my extremely limited outlook, and that there will be a reason whatever the mark. Often later, following a very helpful lesson, I then realise exactly what the judge meant and saw. Therefore, I always try and take away something constructive and productive.

I always try and tell myself that I care more about how the horse went, rather than the mark later awarded. (Especially in BD, since I use that as a warm up/practice for BE.) In reality, I'm so determined and competitive that I often become disapointed, although my behaviour in these situations is improving!
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It is true though that different judges look for different things. Many ground jury members for eventing, when also judging BD, seem to favour the TB types. My own horse who I've had since I was 14 lacks any real 'star quality' and has ordinary paces, but is (usually!) calm and tries very hard, so I can ride more accurately. It's made me more philosophical and made me realise its horses for courses, and ultimately very subjective.
 
DressageChick I do hope I get one like you, I had a listed judge once who told me that ponies could not hope to compete at elementary level, as their movement could not compare to the bigger moving horses. Funny, had she not heard of FEI ponies??!! Not that I am lucky enough to own one, but that one comment disillusioned me for ages, & it is only now that I have joined BD, having spent yonks considering it to be elitist. Realistically, my lovely ponio is never going to GP, but then the majority of people who sj at weekends aren't going to HOYS either. I just want to get fair & constructive comments, & progress as far as we are able to, & enjoy it, oh, & stay in the arena & remember the test!!
 
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This might sound a bit like a 'sour grapes' story, but it's not!

I remember one judge, who judged my sister and I doing the same test on our respective horses. At the time, the horses were fairly similar in standard (although they certainly are not now!) and did fairly similar tests.

My horse spooked at someone pushing a pram right up to the edge of the arena and scuttled forward, but I tried to just ride him through it and continue to ride my circle. OK, a bit rushed because he'd got upset but I was proud of myself for carrying on (time was I would have freaked out at the spook and retired- I'm a wuss!). When the score sheet came back I had a 0 for the movement and the comment "no cirlce shown"! I was livid, but unfortunately the video camera batteries had died so I couldn't contest it with the evidence in my hand. Then that judge gave my sister a 9 in her test! No disrespect to my sister, but there was no way, at that time, that she would have produced a movement worthy of a 9!

The differnce- my horse is a chestnut TB and hers is a dark bay warmblood. And I think that's all there was too it.

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You see this is an example of what dressagechick was getting at with untrained judges.

Any trained judge would know that you cannot give a 0 in that instance because you either did the circle (maybe an odd shape because of the spook) or you missed it out entirely in which case the judge should have rung the bell and told you you'd made a mistake any given you the opportunity to do it again. You then would just have a minus 2 at the bottom for going wrong. If you genuinely missed out the circle and the judge didn't notice until the end of the test then they have to give you a mark that is the average of your collectives as they failed to give you the chance to correct it.

I have seen some appalling judging at unaffiliated shows with judges really not knowing even the basic rules like not having to leave the arena at A anymore or being able to do rising trot at Elementary level etc etc.

As someone who both competes and judges I see both sides of the coin and in the main BD listed judges are fair and we work hard at constantly improving our knowledge and judging skills but there are the odd one or two judges out there who are known to be a little bias against certain types and some who are known to be generous and others who are tight with the marks. We did have a judge in our area we called the 'ice skating' jusge as she never went above a 6!! She is retired now though.
 
I am an unlisted judge & I know the rules, judge fairly, & use the full range of marks!! I am not afraid to give an eight if something is good, nor will I hold back from giving a 1 if something is very bad!!
Will echo the comments about being accurate though..........so many people turn sevens in to sixes by being late /early with transitions, & turns etc.
 
These problems all have encountered are why I prefer show jumping to Dressage & Showing as it's simple & straight forward to understand. You either have a pole or not, stop or not etc.

Everytime I see riders collect their sheets I hear them arguing over why they got this mark & why they got that comment & how come such & such a horse scored more than they did etc. On the occasions my daughter competes at Dressage I always video the test & we can watch it back later & read the sheet as we watch.....it either comes alot cleared then ....or....... you get even more angry
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