Where have all the working pupils gone??

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spacefaer

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As title really

Several friends of mine have been looking/advertising for what seems like all year and have had no response.

Good positions, lots of training, great yards, top people - lots of opportunities

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Where are they all??
 
Scared off by being promised things that are never delivered, unreasonable hours for dreadful money, the expectation of lots of unpaid overtime because 'that's horses for you', and being treated like idiots. Couple that with a lack of care a lot of employers show for health and safety, and in some cases the downright animosity shown by people toward their staff and you have your answer.
I appreciate not all yards are like this, but once you have been on a couple, you tend to go back to college, or leave horses. My friends daughter was seriously badly treated, by someone who had previously said she couldn't get staff, and that they left once she had trained them, and she was a capable,, happy hardworking girl. Now she wouldn't take another working pupil job for love nor money.
 
Every working pupil I've ever met are on shocking wages.
You really have to want to make it with horses for it to be worth it...and this day and age most people have realised competing at the high levels is a rich man's game!
 
My guess is at least some of them have been put off from either working or hearing stories of working for less good work placements. The other factor is financial do the yards also at least offer apprentice rate wages? Some otherwise nice yards seem to think wp can live off thin air and hard work!
 
The pay would be shocking even if it were a 9-5 job, let alone the kind of hours working pupils have to work. It's physically hard work and tbh I'm glad to see that youngsters are wising up about being exploited. I've yet to meet anyone with a genuinely good experience of being a working pupil. I've met one or two who did feel that they had, but hearing them talk about it made it clear that it was still pretty bad.
 
Its such a shame, I loved being a wp-best job I ever had! Worked in a huge RS/livery/comp yard for training up to Stage IV. Excellent training and opportunities (no money though but it was the 80s). I then left to be a wp at a then top dressage rider's yard and got treated so badly, I walked out after a few weeks.
 
I think working pupils have given way to 'apprenticeships'. Their conditions of work and pay are government controlled. Their training, while on a yard, is overseen by specialist companies. They are not allowed to be on the yard on their own etc etc.
It seems to be a scheme that is working well for some people and it is quite hard to get placements - I was approached by the training company and asked to see a young girl who had tried college and hated it. She is thriving in a small environment where we have time to help her develop both in her horsemanship and personal skills.
Yes the minimum wage for an apprentice is poor but they do get training that is overseen by an outside company within their working day and they are certainly not up to the same speed and standards as the full time staff - it actually takes us time out of our day to see that everything is explained and understood by the apprentice. The old days of long hours, grotty accommodation and no training have hopefully long gone!
 
Sport Horse is right. Reputable (and in fairness larger..) yards now offer apprenticeships rather than WP posts. That, coupled with the fact that you cannot now leave school until 18 (unless in a recognised apprenticeship), limits the available pool for working pupils. If your friends really want to train and develop a young person (as opposed to have cheap labour) then contact one of the Government approved apprentice training schemes and get on board. As the mother of a late teen I know there is still no shortage of young people wanting to take up those places - just a shortage of reputable places!
 
zaminda said:
Scared off by being promised things that are never delivered, unreasonable hours for dreadful money, the expectation of lots of unpaid overtime because 'that's horses for you', and being treated like idiots. Couple that with a lack of care a lot of employers show for health and safety, and in some cases the downright animosity shown by people toward their staff and you have your answer.
I appreciate not all yards are like this, but once you have been on a couple, you tend to go back to college, or leave horses. My friends daughter was seriously badly treated, by someone who had previously said she couldn't get staff, and that they left once she had trained them, and she was a capable,, happy hardworking girl. Now she wouldn't take another working pupil job for love nor money.
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This is exactly it!

When I was a WP I got £50 a week, £25 of which i had to give back to my employers for meals, couldn't use a different farrier so had to use theirs at £66 a time for just fronts, didn't get any holiday only had 1 day off a week, but used to take 2 weeks together so do 12days on 2 days off so i could go home and see my family. Was often left on the yard entirely alone with 25+ horses to do while they took horses competing. A normal working day for me was 7am on the yard, break for breakfast about 10am, lunch at some point and work through to somewhere between 7pm and 9pm go in and have a shower and dinner, back out on the yard about 10.30/11 to do late night checks and clean the days tack, usually in bed by midnight, and repeat! Granted my horse got a good starting but it was a slog.

I'm not surprised that with the unregulated work for WP's the rise in people going to Uni and the extensive backing behind apprenticeships that numbers of people willing to sell their soul to work with horses is dwindling!
 
pay is shocking for the hours you put in, I lasted all of about 3 months, i was treated well but you cant have a life outside work atall, never again!
 
I was a WP for around 9-10 months when I was 18.

The good thing about it was that my riding was the best it's ever been, or has been since (I'm pretty rubbish these days lol). I did learn a lot, even though I went in knowing quite a bit anyway. My trainer was an excellent instructor (but didn't give two hoots about me as a person). The yard I was on was a riding school and rescue centre, so being there taught me how to handle and deal with damaged and nervous horses.

As for the rest - 12 hour days were the norm. I was lucky to only have a 5 day week, but my days off were set and I worked all weekend, every weekend. I had to do one 'late night' every week, so had to stay till at least 9pm. I was often left on my own (and in charge of 40+ horses & ponies!) for hours and was regularly left in charge of the Saturday 'pony club'. I got £70 per week bursary grant, which they docked if I missed a day (which I'm not sure they were even allowed to do, as it wasn't a salary!). Lunch breaks, or in fact any break, was almost unheard of. It was hard, exhausting work. My days off were mostly spent sleeping!

I was obviously working towards my BHS stages, but they kept putting off entering me for my Stage 1 - telling me I needed to be at least Stage 3 level before they would consider it so that I was guaranteed to pass. Bear in mind, I could probably have passed Stage 1 fairly easily before I started there...

And from other experiences I've heard, I had it easy! I lasted the 9-10 months before I was signed off with 'work related stress'. I sent them my sick note, and in return I got a letter to say my contract had been terminated! Again, not sure if they were allowed to do that, but at 18 I didn't really care.

I came away a little jaded and it did put me off horses for a little while. I had a break, then decided that I would keep horses as a hobby. Working with them wasn't for me, sadly, even thought it was all I had dreamed of as a little girl :(

In my time there, I saw another 3 WPs come and go. One only lasted a couple of weeks... Wouldn't recommend it, really!
 
For some reason people within the horse world think they are exempt from rules & regulations regarding minimum wage, health & safety etc. There are incredibly long hours worked most days but when horses are taken to shows the hours worked are ridiculous & YOs won't pay their staff. When some are prosecuted & fined large amounts possibly conditions will change.

The Slavery Abolition Act 1833 abolished slavery in this country, there was no get out clause for Equine yards etc but for some reason YOs think there was?

Some say that things have always been this way, but does that make it right? No not really. In my experience if you look after people who work for you you will reap the rewards. You will get more quality work from them & you will get loyalty from them & that is priceless. :)
 
I've done the working pupil thing and to be honest I'd never do it again. Long hours, in one place on the yard for 6am and I'd be lucky to be back in t caravan for 10pm. It worked out I was earning an £10 per day if I was lucky. There was no gratitude and it was made clear anyone was disposable. In fact I booked a weeks holiday and got replaced while on it.

Another place was always late paying. The showing opportunities never happened. The livery for my horse never happened, in fact nothing I was promised ever happened.

Somewhere else made me feel guilty for working my own once I ha finished everything even though that was the deal. Hours were long and pay...pay. Well....


Lunch breaks non existent, day off per week was spent grooming at shows, health and safety didn't happen. Left with yard of 42 horses sole charge when the owner popped out for 5mins. The list goes on.
Never again
 
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It is quite clear from the responses received that the vast majority of so called yards show a total lack of regard to staff, employment laws or training and deserve to be closed down.
 
pixie said:
Could the low pay thing also perhaps correlate with the fact that a lot of people don't want to pay a lot of money for livery?
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yup.

there is an element of 'we had it hard, don't see why they shouldn't' as well I think. This isn't a new problem but more people have the opportunity to go to uni/college these days and therefore don't do the horsey thing. I left school and home at 16 and that seems pretty unheard of now.
 
My daughter was offered a WP position. No money, free accommodation (good of 'em) and breakfast and lunch. 6 day week. This was with a top SW eventer. Thanks but no thanks.
 
My apprentice earns the NMW for apprentices. She works from 8.30 to 5 with one hour for lunch.She works a five and a half day week. She has 28 days holiday per year. Her horse is staying here at present (I charge for hay, food and bedding at cost only) and we are helping her with it (free!). She has time off in her working day to spend with her training providers as well as help from us on a regular basis. I have joined her to my local Riding Club (at my expense) and I provide her with a horse to join in dressage lessons and jumping lessons two or three times a month, again at my expense and in my time.
I am in touch with other employers on a regular basis and these are the more normal conditions these days otherwise you are not able to be part of the government schemes - quite rightly.
I am aware that staff have historically been 'used and abused' within the equestrian world but if anyone is offered a job and told they will be paid cash in hand or asked to be self employed in return for full time work they should walk away and look elsewhere! I have on occasion lost staff and been told they would be earning more at the new job only for them to come back and say that actually it had not worked out that way when they had no tax/NI paid, no paid holidays etc etc.
There are proper employers out there but while the others get away with it they will continue to do so.
 
Tiarella said:
Treated like ***** and paid like *****. Cheap, free labour. Would never recommend it to anyone.
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^^^ This I was a working pupil and I am not afraid of hard work but was treated like less than s**t and got nothing back that I was promised. It just isn't worth it, I went to uni after so I could get a well paid job instead.
 
The working pupils I have known were like slaves with one key difference. They ended up owing their overseer money. So they were actually worse off then slaves. Can't imagine why OP is struggling to find volunteers...
 
case895 said:
The working pupils I have known were like slaves with one key difference. They ended up owing their overseer money. So they were actually worse off then slaves. Can't imagine why OP is struggling to find volunteers...
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I'm not looking - I was merely asking.

When I ran my yard, I provided a lecture and ridden lesson 5 days/week. We started at 7, finished at 5 & the girls got 3 home cooked meals every day. They worked a 5.5 day week. They got taken to competitions with their own horses, as well as grooming for mine. We evented, show jumped, dressaged, tram chased and went hunting. They weren't required to compete but encouraged if they were keen.

One of them got selected for the British young riders eventing squad, another got his PC A test and went on to work for Ian Stark before going into training (and now runs his own yard)

We worked hard, played hard and reaped the results. I'm not seeing the opportunities for staff or employers nowadays.
 
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