Where is the line?

[daydreamer]

I posted a thread this morning about a training session I was uncomfortable watching and if I should say anything. Most people said I should say nothing, I called petty and my judgement called in to doubt.

I always planned to post a follow on thread but maybe it is more pertinent because of the events of the day - where is the line? At what point do you/should you say something?

Does it matter who is training? Or riding? Or watching? Or how much experience you have? Or how much experience they have? Or where you are?

I know there are things I see that I don't agree with, that I don't always think are in the best interests of the horse, but I don't always/often say something. I'd like to think if I saw someone beating a horse or hitting it I would say something - but what if they were much more respected and knowledgable than me? What about overweight horses? Or badly fitting tack?

Anyway, I thought it might be an interesting discussion.

 

[misst]

Yard culture is so difficult sometimes and cliques form and people are ostracised so often I think it can be hard to speak out. Horses are so precious to their owners (a bit like a child is to a parent) that criticism is often taken personally whether it be of the horse itself, training methods or husbandry. It is a brave person who raises their head above the radar. That is not to say one shouldn't but it is a "dangerous" thing to do, the backlash can be vicious.

 

[Tiddlypom]

The reason that most people advised you on that thread to do nothing was because of the dynamics of being on a livery yard. It can be better just to keep your head down, or life could get very difficult for you.

The poster who called you petty was an outlier, and was not supported by others.

Having said that, I tend to open my big mouth and to say something .

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

The line for condemnation is drawn where the horse suffers in any way, shape or form be it intentionally or unintentionally to a degree (unless a genuine one off mistake and willing to learn)

The line for becoming involved occurs for me when there is a realistic potential for change imo, eg: with an influencer, or someone in high level sports or a professional, or is it systemic and they are answerable to a higher body be it BD, FEI, the law etc.

I personally wouldn't challenge someone on a livery yard if there is no prospect of change as all you are going to get is defensiveness, likely backlash and probably ousted from said yard depending on their standing with YO and other liveries, that is unless it is a RSPCA level of abuse, then it is another matter entirely. Sometimes, no matter how galling it is to do so, you have to just continue to care for your horse, and your horse only and I think everyone has had to do this at some point.

 

[Miss_Millie]

When I was on livery, I rapidly became the black sheep of the yard because I didn't hit my horse. I wasn't vocal about the terrible way that some people treated their horses because I was just trying to survive in that toxic hell-hole, but my gentleness towards my own horse made me stick out like a sore thumb.

I would have given up horses had I not been lucky enough to keep them at home now, as it's hard to stomach seeing people smack their horses in the face and whip the s**t out of them, and yet somehow you're the weirdo for not doing those things.

People will gaslight you and try to make you feel like you are the problem, but my advice would be to get away from that kind of environment at all costs, for the sake of your own wellbeing.

Last lesson I had at a riding school many moons ago, the instructor tried to make me punish/beat the horse I was riding for 'playing up', I later found out from yard worker that none of the horses had been turned out for days, so no wonder they were frustrated. There and then I knew I was never going back, yet that person is considered a high-level instructor and still locally revered. Until the culture changes at its core, abusing horses is normal.

 

[Crazy_cat_lady]

It's very timely and interesting given what has occurred following a whistle-blower who'd been with a big name and adds to the question are livery yards not moving with the times

Most organisations have a whistle-blower policy and the whistle-blower is allowed protection (with procedures in place is its malicious and made up) so people feel more able to call things out

This one will have a massive impact whereas because there's no one to support OP doing it, the unsavoury practices if they are, can just continue unchallenged

 

[scats]

I stopped training with someone because I felt they were asking me to push my horse far beyond what I was comfortable with. They also wanted to chase my horse with a lunge whip while I rode.
I started to come away increasingly uncomfortable. This person trains with someone at the top of the sport. I couldn’t help wonder if they trained like this because this is how they were trained.

 

[Dave's Mam]

I stopped having lessons with a "dressage" rider when she rode Dave one day & I had never seen kicks & pulling like it in all of my life. It really wasn't pretty at all & Dave was looking really lost & taken aback. Never again.
I also had someone ask if I was comfortable with them chasing him with a lunge whip while I rode. No ta.

 

[AShetlandBitMeOnce]

I backed Dex and it’s remarkable how many people comment on how willing and jolly he looks when he’s worked, and my answer is always that I think it’s because he truly never has been told off for trying yet getting it wrong, or pushed further than he is comfortable going, and I know that because I backed him myself and have been present for/managed every ridden moment.

The difference in attitude between him and the horses I have pity bought in the past is vast

 

[scats]

I stopped having lessons with a "dressage" rider when she rode Dave one day & I had never seen kicks & pulling like it in all of my life. It really wasn't pretty at all & Dave was looking really lost & taken aback. Never again.
I also had someone ask if I was comfortable with them chasing him with a lunge whip while I rode. No ta.

It’s so distressing isn’t it? One day I just drove home from the lesson and said ‘never again’. It hadn’t gone well for a couple of sessions because I’d refused to do some of the stuff I was being told to do, as I felt it was pushing Millie more than was fair. It was implied that I would never get anywhere without doing that and my attitude towards it needed to change if I was going to progress. I decided there and then that if that’s what it took, I didn’t want to get anywhere.

My whole outlook on riding and competing changed at that moment. I wasn’t cut out for it, clearly. Millie is happier than ever now. Pressure off and we bimble about doing our own thing. She is never pushed beyond what she finds comfortable.
Today we did 20 mins- had a canter on both reins and then a big cuddle and we both went in with smiles on our faces.
Perhaps I’ve gone fluffy in my old age, but I’m happy with that.

 

[Dave's Mam]

It’s so distressing isn’t it? One day I just drove home from the lesson and said ‘never again’. It hadn’t gone well for a couple of sessions because I’d refused to do some of the stuff I was being told to do, as I felt it was pushing Millie more than was fair. It was implied that I would never get anywhere without doing that and my attitude towards it needed to change if I was going to progress. I decided there and then that if that’s what it took, I didn’t want to get anywhere.

My whole outlook on riding and competing changed at that moment. I wasn’t cut out for it, clearly. Millie is happier than ever now. Pressure off and we bimble about doing our own thing. She is never pushed beyond what she finds comfortable.
Today we did 20 mins- had a canter on both reins and then a big cuddle and we both went in with smiles on our faces.
Perhaps I’ve gone fluffy in my old age, but I’m happy with that.

It was awful. I now work with 2 instructors who "get" Dave & me. We've come on leaps & bounds. Neither of us responds well to force.
I'll never forget his face, he was so confused.

@scats I'm so glad you're happy now too.

 

[SEL]

It is difficult.

My big mare was downright nasty when she came to me (was heading for a bullet at 4). One day I picked up a schooling whip someone had dropped & just happened to have it in my hand when she launched at me with her teeth. She got the whip hard down her neck - it was actually a reflex action rather than planned, but she never did it again. If someone had a video of that it could easily have shown me in a bad light. The fact I remember it so clearly is probably because I don't go around hitting horses!

I have had instructors who are "whip heavy" and some of those are highly qualified. It makes me uncomfortable. I don't have a regular instructor right now for that reason (plus the yanky, yanky on the mouth nonsense)

Livery yards are difficult places though and need tact. I'm not sure what I'd do at a top level clinic if someone started acting unprofessionally either.

 

[Cinnamontoast]

There used to be a rider at my yard who practised rollkur, proper chin on chest, constantly. It was around the time a European dressage rider was crucified online for similar in a high profile competition. He was a friend of the ym. There was lots of horrified whispering but nobody raised it publicly.

I’ve seen some stuff on yards over the years, one person smacking sh!te out of a horse refusing to load. It just ignored them, but jaysus, that is not (imo and I know I’m a total amateur) to get a horse to get on the box. Well known trainer-locally, at least. Again, everyone was standing round whispering, appalled, but not raised publicly. I think a lot of it is to do with people being amateurs and not able to suggest a different method or being seen as ‘less’ than the instructor/rider. Less experienced, less able to ride, less years in the game, less confident.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I have marched into a Pony Club lesson, where the instructor had mounted my daughter's pony 'to teach him a lesson.' Removed the whip and threw it onto the floor, told instructor to dismount or I would drag her off. Never been so angry for a long time, then realised there was an audience of silent parents stood around the fence. No matter. That was many years ago, and I would do it again if I had to.

 

[scats]

Wrong thread sorry

 

[daydreamer]

It's tricky isn't it, and it seems lots of us have seen things we aren't comfortable with but haven't said anything. I was discussing with my farrier too this morning and we both said sometimes a horse does need a smack but it is a case of knowing where the line is, for me that's usually about hander/rider safety. I think i'm probably more fluffy than I used to be about ridden work and wouldn't tolerate any yanking or smacking with my own horse. Actually the last time he had his teeth done it was a dentist recommended by someone else and my horse ended up careering around the stable (nothing nasty on either part, my horse was more unsettled than usual at the time and I don't think the dentist had a particularly good manner). After a while I did say "err have you done as much as you need to now" and he stopped but I did feel guilty for not saying anything sooner. I think I didn't speak up sooner because he was a "professional".

 

[JFTDWS]

I have a photo of a dressage trainer actually punching my (then) 5 year old in the face. For the crime of not standing at the block to be mounted. To make matters worse, I later found out that the reason this pony was very fidgety in new places is because he is partially sighted.

I’ve experienced some awful dressage training and some which was “on the line” of what I’d consider acceptable. It’s why I walked away from dressage about 7 years ago and have never looked back. I tried polocrosse, which was just as bad.

Now I just hack and play medieval games with friends who have no authority to do anything with my horse (other than maintaining safety for spectators / everyone). It’s about all I feel I can ethically do with horses now.

 

[scats]

I notice that CDJ’s normally very opinionated sister is keeping quiet on FB too.

 

[Highmileagecob]

I have always viewed a horse as having the reasoning ability of the average five year old child. Easily distracted, unsure of new instructions, no real road sense unless supervised, and needs repetition to get things right. Beating either the child or the horse doesn't mean they learn faster.
Interesting thread, and sensible discussion. Perhaps we need a few riders at the top of their game to come out and declare 'no more whips.'

 

[Smitty]

I am of the opinion that there's "no smoke without fire". Many moons ago a famous equestrian was photographed abusing a horse. It was in all the nationals because of their high profile. It didn't seem too big a punishment to many horse people but about a year later they turned up at a BSJA show with a few youngsters and the practice jump became very uncomfortable viewing. There were so many complaints to the organisers that they were asked to never go back.

 

[Pinkvboots]

I notice that CDJ’s normally very opinionated sister is keeping quiet on FB too.

I've been judged at a local show by her a few times everyone was falling over themselves about it, she isn't that important and what I saw I wasn't that impressed to be honest.

 

[Pinkvboots]

Most of my instructors have been ok really but most of them were friends anyway so you get a feel for how your friends are hopefully

 

[Mari]

I judged a girl of about 9/10 yrs old on a lovely 12.2 pony in an Intro class at an unaffiliated show. She had spurs & a dressage whip & used them. Pony was tense & stressed. They were entered in the following class, I told organiser I refused to judge them as in my opinion the rider was abusing the pony. I agreed to speak to the parents, dad was a farrier. I ended up telling them they needed to discipline their child & find a new trainer. Needless to say I was never invited back to that venue.

 

[Jinx94]

Potentially going to get grief for this, but I think based on recent events honesty and reflection are extremely important.

I know there were goings on at places that I worked at that I didn't speak up about, I also know that when I was younger and far more easily influenced, I let those people influence the way that I behaved and I have spent years working to fix my own behaviour patterns that are totally out of order. At one point, I would smack first and think about the circumstances later. I was quick to anger and would react rather than think. At the time I justified it by saying 'you need to react quickly otherwise there's no point' and 'I only smack them once - it's not sustained'. That absolutely did not make it right and it makes me feel sick to think about it now.

(These situations were not reprimands for dangerous behaviour. It was a 'lack of obedience' *cough* BS *cough* from the horse and my subsequent loss of temper)

In situations where you need to defend yourself or you need to do something to keep yourself/your horse/others safe, then you do what you need to do. The last ridden road hack that I did on Tris (approx 4 years ago?) was probably the worst piece of riding that I have ever done. Going out was fine, on our way back he started spinning in front of cars. The direction/distance between us and them didn't matter he was spinning directly into the path of them. Had I got off, I genuinely believe he would have bogged off which would have been even worse. I tried half halting, finding places to pull over, lateral work to keep him focused, keeping the whip on his shoulder as a barrier and nothing worked. I stopped thinking about wanting my horse to behave and instead thinking of how to get us home alive. So I resorted to smacking him repeatedly on the neck and waving the whip by his face. He stopped spinning.

It's the ugliest that I have ever ridden and I never, ever, ever want to do that again.

If I can't do something without resorting to that then I don't want to do it. Totally lost faith in myself after that incident and it has probably been a major factor in why I've ridden so little the last couple of years. Gutting when, excluding that moment, I prided myself on riding with extremely light aids in a very empathetic and considerate manner.

I struggle to trust myself to be kind at times (not because I'm not as I really strive to be, but because I know I have had occasions where I haven't been) and I control my actions! There is no way whatsoever that I would stand for an instructor pushing me to be heavy handed/excessive with the whip or bully him in any way.

I love horse sports but I hate the way some riders try to achieve their goals. I strongly believe that it is possible to reach the top levels as a kind and empathetic rider, with the wellbeing of your horse as the top priority. But everyone wants a shortcut.

I'm finally bringing Tris back into work and I do hope to be riding 3-5 days a week by the end of the year, but as far as I'm concerned we're just playing and having fun. If he's not enjoying something, we won't do it. He will always come first.

 

[Nonjumper]

In situations where you need to defend yourself or you need to do something to keep yourself/your horse/others safe, then you do what you need to do. The last ridden road hack that I did on Tris (approx 4 years ago?) was probably the worst piece of riding that I have ever done. Going out was fine, on our way back he started spinning in front of cars. The direction/distance between us and them didn't matter he was spinning directly into the path of them. Had I got off, I genuinely believe he would have bogged off which would have been even worse. I tried half halting, finding places to pull over, lateral work to keep him focused, keeping the whip on his shoulder as a barrier and nothing worked. I stopped thinking about wanting my horse to behave and instead thinking of how to get us home alive. So I resorted to smacking him repeatedly on the neck and waving the whip by his face. He stopped spinning.

Ok, but how can you say "where you need to defend yourself or you need to do something to keep yourself/your horse/others safe, then you do what you need to do" but when you found yourself in that precise situation you felt bad at "doing what you had to do"? It's not like you went straight there, you'd tried other methods first. Someone was going to get injured in that scenario, most likely you.

 

[Jinx94]

Ok, but how can you say "where you need to defend yourself or you need to do something to keep yourself/your horse/others safe, then you do what you need to do" but when you found yourself in that precise situation you felt bad at "doing what you had to do"? It's not like you went straight there, you'd tried other methods first. Someone was going to get injured in that scenario, most likely you.

Very true and I definitely did what I needed to in that moment, but I don't think I can ever feel okay about laying into him the way that I did.