Where to go from here - Vet? Physio? Chiro? or a good instructor

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TripleBar

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Hello everyone

I am a long time lurker but this is my first time posting as I think I will be able to get some really good advice from you folks. Sincere apologies for the long post!

I was in a bit of a quandry wether to post this in the veterinary section or competition riders but decided to post in here as it will more likely reach a bigger cross section of people with their advice.

I have a 12 year old gelding who I have previously done quite a bit of showjumping with up to fox level. 2 years ago we started having a bit of trouble with disunited canter etc and it turned out he had PSD in his hind legs. He ended up having an operation on the vets advice. He has come back sound and has built up lots of muscle which he had previosly lost over his back and withers and is indeed moving better than he ever has before.

We started jumping again a couple of months ago but have had real trouble on the left rein with landing on the correct leg unless I come in on a very small circle, turn to the fence. He is also rushing on this rein and has felt incredibly spooky/tense which is not like him at all and he just feel like he is 'running'. There is also a lot of teeth snapping going on when he is doing his work. All of these things are signifying pain to me. Some days he appears better than others in terms of this tenseness. He will also try to flick me onto the wrong diagonal in trot on this rein.

Saddle has been checked and the physio has been out to see him and was chuffed to bits with how he is looking and moving but did say he was sore behind his saddle. My instructor says he is definately sound and has huge active movement behind which is leaving me a bit stumped as to what to do or what it could be? I would give anything to have my happy boy back. Has anyone else experienced behaviour like this? What was the outcome?

Thankyou very much for any advice anyone can offer x
 
It sounds like a pain reaction, the back being sore behind the saddle shows something is going on, I would start with the vet, if nothing is found take another look at the saddle, it may be that although it fits him for some reason it no longer suits him, he may well have changed his way of moving and jumping since the injury and requires a different shape saddle.
I had one mare in that had been checked by numerous vets, physios, saddlers all declared there was nothing wrong when there obviously was, it was considered behavioural so she came in to be schooled, I immediately saw her saddle was moving when she jumped causing her distress, a change of saddle and some more physio and her bad behaviour went, sometimes it takes a different pair of eyes to see the obvious.
 
I agree that this definitely sounds like pain. The good news is that it sounds like it's probably saddle rather than previous injury related. New saddle from a good saddle fitter and a couple of visits from an ACPAT reg. physio would be where I would start. Sounds like he's going great guns otherwise though!
 
It's so difficult isn't it when it's far to pinpoint what exactly is going on. When we first began jumping again we had these lead problems and I spoke to the vet who said he believed it was a strengthening up issue. A few months down the line it's still happening and he's now starting to get worried jumping on that rein.

It's difficult to know if it stems from back or leg pain. The way he moves I certainly (hope!!) it's not his legs but there's something obviously not quite right.

Difficult to know which way to go and I really don't want him being stuck with needles etc when he's been through so much already. It's like opening a huge can of worms :( poor boy.
 
I might get a lack of performance type work up from another suitable vet preferably in conjunction with a full assessment from a ACPAT physio .
I would not discount the saddle from being the issue..
Or I might just say to the vet X-ray and do some diagnostic ultrasound on the sore area behind the saddle .
 
Did physio check saddle fit? They might pick up on sonething that saddle fitter might have missed.

Personally I'd get vet out initially. You've already had physio, fitter and instructor and they've not picked anything.

Back pain is often secondary to lameness and if it's a bilateral lameness it can be hard to detect as horse looks "equal".

So in short vet first and take it from there if something is found. If it's a clean bill of health from vet I'd be tempted to try different fitter and saddle(s) as *something* is causing that tightness/soreness.

Best wishes and good luck
 
My mare had sacroiliac problems, one of her main problems was struggling on one canter lead, although she wasn't ever actually lame. She was also reluctant to go forward and bucking. One possible idea? She had one set of injections to relieve pain, then light work and has since done lots of hacking to build up muscle to support joint, now back to full work as before
 
I'd normally advocate a vet, but in your case I'd probably be tempted to get another saddle fitter out for a look - if there is one that you can get that won't try and flog you another saddle. Or if you have a thermal imaging person in the area you live in, they can do saddle fit checks, which can be very revealing, and will show if the saddle fits or not!
 
Thanks for the advice. And yes it's difficult to know which way to turn. I have booked him in for a ridden/jumping assessment with the vet an then if that shows nothing I will go down the saddle route.

Interestingly enough he seems a lot less tense and spooky if ridden in the morning straight from the stable than if he's been out in he field during the day.... All very bizarre.

I'm hoping in a way that it is some kind of back pain rather than relating to his hind legs. It's all very odd given that on some days he is much better than others - I suppose it could be like us with back pain where we have good and bad days with it?
 
Which sort of surgery did he have? I'm just wondering whether the nerve branch was removed hence him moving quite big behind/differently so poss causing other issues?
 
TripleBar said:
Interestingly enough he seems a lot less tense and spooky if ridden in the morning straight from the stable than if he's been out in he field during the day.... All very bizarre.

I'm hoping in a way that it is some kind of back pain rather than relating to his hind legs. It's all very odd given that on some days he is much better than others - I suppose it could be like us with back pain where we have good and bad days with it?
Click to expand...


May be a little off topic, but have you considered ulcers? My mare has them and they seem to affect her worse if she's been out all day. Possibly because there's not an awful lot of grass out there at the moment so she's coming in a sometimes a bit on the hungry side, especially when it's been frozen lately- if I ride straight out of the stable in the morning, she's always had a good tummy full of hay first and does seem to go better. Just worth a thought? She is also much more comfortable on one rein than the other, although she also has KS (both under treatment), so admittedly it is difficult to know what exactly is causing what.

Good luck :-)
 
Thankyou for the suggestion melody. Having done a bit of reading up on hind gut ulcers specifically it sounds like it could be a possibility. Will mention it to the vet on his assessment
 
UPDATE!!!

We have had our trip to the vets today and hes thrown us a bit of a curve ball to be honest......

Sound behind and all back palpations appeared normal apart from a slight bit of tenseness behind the saddle area which the vet said was nothing big enough to cause him worry...

However - flexion tests and circles on the hard standing revealed an intermittent lameness in his right fore which I guess could go some way to explaining why he doesnt want to land on the right lead and also why he will constantly try and put me on the wrong diagonal in trot?? What do others think?

The vet blocked his foot and there was no difference and then blocked him further up behind his knee which showed an improvement (but not perfect). We rode him and set out two canter poles on a three stride distance. With the block he managed to go on the correct lead on the right rein when he popped over the poles but still went wrong the times he jumped the first pole despite being 'blocked'.

He then scanned the two front legs and found some very very slight fibre disruption to his right suspensory but said it was hard to tell as the blocks can sometimes make it look like that? There was certainly nothing jumping out at us. His next suggestion is MRI to see if we can find out whats causing it....

Im absolutely gobsmacked. This whole time I have never ever considered a front end lameness as (probably due to previous injury) have been concentrating so much on his hind end/back. Part of me still thinks we are barking up the wrong tree with all this but again I think its down to his past history which is skewing my views.

The problem is....if everything looks ok (ish) on ultrasound then what the bloody hell is it?!?! Devastated is not the word, although at the same time slightly relieved as I was driving myself mad wondering if all this was down to my crap riding or just because he has had such a long time off with his hindlegs. Poor boy, I hope we can get to the bottom of it.

The only other stress is he is insured with NFU who wont give any go ahead to anyone re MRI scans until they are done which of course financially is a worry.

Would really appreciate anyones thoughts/experiences or comments. Feeling rather low tonight :(
 
Good news that you have got somewhere but frustrating to find another lameness. Hopefully it is something easily and quickly fixable, horses are such hearbreakers. I have always found NFU good at paying out in the past but I'm not sure that I've ever needed them to cover an MRI, which is a bit too expensive to want to be risking having to cover yourself.

Let us know what happens and fingers croseed!
 
It's so difficult isn't it? Especially when things like insurance come into play....

This very small slight lameness was seen off the back of a flexion test which given he's 12 years old doesn't seem hugely worrying - especially when he was scanned and the only tiny disruption to the fibres was where he had been blocked so it's very difficult to know if it was a true picture??

I've lunged him tonight on both reins in the Pessoa and honestly did not see a single step of lameness. He was however, tense and very spooky and took a while before he settled....

My gut feeling is that this is a red herring and I'm convinced it's more a back/chiro type issue. I really don't want to go another round of box rest for months etc etc and then be in the same position months down the line. I would give anything to have a crystal ball!
 
My mare has had issues with being disunited on right rein when jumping. She had steroid injection in Sacroiliac region but also tested positive for stomach and hind gut ulcers with the succeed test. She was also very tense and spooky and got tired easily. After three months of succeed supplement and other changes in diet, I took her to SJ clinic on Sat and as long as I kept her straight at the jump as she has a tendency to veer to left, there was no disuniting on right rein. She now is less tense and spooky and has stacks of stamina! I am retesting today for ulcers so hoping that they have gone. I am also considering the possibility of mycotoxins as her problems started in Autumn after a wet spell, followed by warm spell and there is clover in field too.
 
I'm in a bit of a hard place with this.

The scans really did not look convincing (even the vet said the slight disruption in fibres could be due to the nerve block and even then he had to really look for it) and my gut feeling is we are barking up the wrong tree..... All his other symptoms say back or hind end to me although I guess I'm not a vet.... Seems odd something like this could cause the random freak outs he is having when working really well. Some days he's coming out chilled and other days is like a really over reactive fire breathing dragon! And you can tell the difference between a horse that's full of it and one that feels like it's running scared. Fair enough if he had gone right over the poles everytime when blocked but the times he jumped them he reverted back to wrong leg and running so it seems to me in my eyes there's something in the action of jumping causing the problem....

I don't obviously want to undermine the vet but at the same time I don't want to go through the whole suspensory rigmarole to find myself in the same position 6 months down the line.

The vet is coming on Wednesday to do a slightly different kind of block so perhaps depending on what we see we can have that conversation. I'm so so confused!!
 
The lameness he showed in front may have been something totally different, a knock the day before could be enough to show the response the vet saw, it may have resolved by this week, knowing what horses are like I would agree with you that unless it continues it may be a red herring and not worth following up, especially as nothing really showed on the scans and blocking didn't completely sort it.

Where you go from here is difficult, the running scared sounds as if it is a pain reaction not likely to come from a minor lameness in front, the slight tenseness in his back, the vet may feel is nothing, is more likely the cause of his reaction when jumping, vets in my experience rarely find much in the back unlike my physio who really knows where to look, she has checked horses after a vet has said nothing is wrong and found some serious areas of concern that required treating, I think I would go to a physio next and get the saddle checked again, there may well be an underlying issue but if the vet cannot find it you may be best treating the symptoms for now.
 
I'm so sorry you are having more problems and even more sorry to post this. I had an 8 yr WB that had surgery for psd and was also lame on right fore. Unfortunately it turned out he had dsd and I had to have him pts. For me it was even more upsetting as he was lame on the front at the same time yet still the vets did not consider dsd and I felt he was put through surgery needlessly

Like you i was unaware of the condition, but now I would never ever let a horse have surgery again without being assured it didn't have dsd. I hope your vets can rule this out for you x x


http://www.equipodiatry.com/dsld.htm.
 
Soulful - Thankyou for the reply. What a sad story :( can you explain what DSD is? It's something I've never heard of before?

I rode my boy on the flat last night - first 20 mins were tense and daft but after that he settled lovely (I'm trying to up his work a little to see if he chills out and so far seems to be working) not once did I feel a lame step in front hence my confusion! I guess I will have to wait and see what tomorrow brings :(
 
TripleBar said:
Soulful - Thankyou for the reply. What a sad story :( can you explain what DSD is? It's something I've never heard of before?

I rode my boy on the flat last night - first 20 mins were tense and daft but after that he settled lovely (I'm trying to up his work a little to see if he chills out and so far seems to be working) not once did I feel a lame step in front hence my confusion! I guess I will have to wait and see what tomorrow brings :(
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Well that's positive for you

http://www.equipodiatry.com/dsld.htm

Sorry stupid phone it's dsld
The link explains better than I could. However the photos of dropping fetlock are an over exaggeration for most horses. To look at my lad you would never have known anything was wrong
 
Update!

Vet came out again - no lameness at all seen on flexion or lunge which seems to suggest the other day was a bit of a red herring.

The vet did say he was sore behind the saddle are and has injected his SI and lumbar region. We are now on a steady 6 week plan back to normal work. So far I havent noticed a huge difference due to the fact we are only a allowed to hack in walk for a little bit and hes still been spooky/full of it but certainly no dropping of his hind end.

he is still over dipping his hind end away when removing rugs and knuckling over on his hind fetlocks when you pick out his front feet which is a bit concerning although I have to say its been slightly less since the steroid injections......perhaps a case of protective behaviour?

The vet was stumped on what any of these symptoms could be. Does anyone have a crystal ball for sale??!!
 
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