Where would you go from here? (Poorly horse)

[Illusion100]

Owned by friend and bought as a happy hacker around 6 months ago. Cob/Native type, approx. 10 yr old mare. Not vetted.

Arrived very portly with loads of feather. Unwilling to pick up feet and looked 'off' when moving, so feathers removed to reveal horrible weeping sores under inflamed, hard folds of skin. This was treated under Vet advice along with thrush, has recovered quite well but not completely.

Feet weren't the best but now barefoot and feet looking much better. Has also lost a good deal of weight and is looking well in that respect.

Horse began to appear lame/uneven/off in front and prefers to walk on soft ground were possible. No lumps, bumps or heat in any legs, X-rays showed nothing in the feet but there is a small bone spur at the RF fetlock but not thought to be of significance and not investigated further. Still isn't right though.

Horse difficult and/or can completely refuse to have fronts picked up.

Very recently the horse was highly reluctant to walk in from the field and then was agitated/sweating up in stable/behaving abnormally, however the next door neighbour was kicking off something shocking and so was suspected of being the cause of the upset while horse was in.

Horse is currently on 1 bute per day, along with some supplements (can't quite remember which as none have made any improvement, so went in one ear and out the other!), some chaff and cubes. Lives out full time with another horse that is quite a bully (always chasing away from hay, even though there are a few sources available and just general mithering) and wasn't rugged.

Went to see horse with friend, horse plodded in from field reluctantly looking short in front but tracking up well enough behind. Didn't have a happy camper face, HR and resp. rate normal, no thermometer so temp not checked. Feet good, no sign of thrush. When picking up fronts, horse offered right away but after 10 secs or so violently snatched both fronts and then did not even want to lift them off ground, also snatchy with hinds which is unusual. Got a nice stretch off LF, RF didn't really want to know. Horse appeared to have discomfort in RF shoulder (apparently physio had also found this but Vet and physio disagree on cause of pain), however the top line, right from the withers to the top of tail felt very rigid to me, palpation caused significant agitation, borderline on dehydration but urine normal colour/flow/quantity.

When asked my opinion I said if horse was mine I would be wanting bloods run as the horse presented, imo, with Azoturia type symptoms and PSSM is also in my mind. I was going to ride the horse to see how it felt under saddle but changed my mind after feeling the rigidity in the muscles, although it would have possibly given a clearer picture if exercise made things better or worse I suppose. Ulcers are also crossing my thoughts.

Horse is insured. I did say several times that if the horse was mine, the Vet would be out (and I am not worrier) but their horse, their choice, I can't force them to so interim advice was to keep a very close eye, rug to keep warm/dry, separate from bully horse to reduce stress/not being able to eat, no haylage but hay ok, water trug instead of automatic drinker to monitor drinking, cut out all feed/supplements and if muscles not significantly softer very soon, Vet needs to come out sharpish. Reluctant to advise electrolytes/Selenium/Vit E unless seen by Vet, so didn't.

What are your thoughts on symptoms, possible causes and what would you be wanting to have tested? Any similar cases you know of and what was the diagnosis/tx? Anything else you would advise? Horse usually has a fantastic and willing temperament also.

I would have offered shortbread to you all but ate it in the time it took me to type this, sorry. *Hangs head in shame*

 

[Casey76]

Is the pastern dermatitis completely resolved? If long standing then it may never go away completely. As a person with significant seasonal eczema, I know it can be very painful if the folds of hardened skin crack, leaving open fissures - even tiny ones are very painful.

 

[Equi]

Did the physio give any homework to owner? Is owner riding?

 

[Illusion100]

Is the pastern dermatitis completely resolved? If long standing then it may never go away completely. As a person with significant seasonal eczema, I know it can be very painful if the folds of hardened skin crack, leaving open fissures - even tiny ones are very painful.

No, I don't believe it is completely resolved no matter how hard the owner tries. I absolutely agree this could be a painful and enduring issue for the horse, actually the worst case I've ever seen but drastically improved. I'm sorry to hear you suffer with eczema, have you found anything that really helps?

 

[Illusion100]

Did the physio give any homework to owner? Is owner riding?

No homework from physio as shoulder issue not thought to be that significant/conflicting cause of issue from Vet so Owner confused who to listen to. Horse is not being ridden now until this muscle rigidity is resolved, previously hacked out once or twice a week.

 

[Kezzabell2]

how long has she been like this? could be an abscess brewing?

 

[Illusion100]

how long has she been like this? could be an abscess brewing?

Took some poultice gear with me just in case but horse was so difficult with fronts I really didn't have a chance of checking for pressure reactions. No heat in feet and digital pulse fine though.

TBH, the horse hasn't been right from the day it arrived, so nearly 6 months.

 

[Kezzabell2]

Took some poultice gear with me jut in case but horse was so difficult with fronts I really didn't have a chance of checking for pressure reactions.

TBH, the horse hasn't been right from the day it arrived.

To be fair, I didn't read it all but this time last year my gelding was in and got a really deep abscess, in fact it started in August, vet dug but no pus came out but he went sound again! then in November he came in hoping lame again! he was so dangerous with his feet, he would snatch away as soon as I tired to pick them up! vet came back and dug a massive hole and it was so deep it took about 3-4 weeks before it cleared enough, after the farrier came out and dug some more too!

The horse was in his stable sweating, totally stressed, trying to bite people as they walked past! he would paw the floor with his front feet, so much it stank of fire!

 

[Orca]

No, I don't believe it is completely resolved no matter how hard the owner tries. I absolutely agree this could be a painful and enduring issue for the horse, actually the worst case I've ever seen but drastically improved. I'm sorry to hear you suffer with eczema, have you found anything that really helps?

Is it Pastern Dermatitis or Chronic Progressive Lymphedema? It might be worth looking into the possibility of the latter.

 

[Casey76]

If the horse is really sore on the fronts, this could cause considerable muscle tension trying to compensate.

Is the horse still clipped out on the legs. If at all possible I would check in the folds of skin for fungal/bacterial infection or fissures - this may need to be done under sedation if very sore.

 

[Illusion100]

To be fair, I didn't read it all but this time last year my gelding was in and got a really deep abscess, in fact it started in August, vet dug but no pus came out but he went sound again! then in November he came in hoping lame again! he was so dangerous with his feet, he would snatch away as soon as I tired to pick them up! vet came back and dug a massive hole and it was so deep it took about 3-4 weeks before it cleared enough, after the farrier came out and dug some more too!

The horse was in his stable sweating, totally stressed, trying to bite people as they walked past! he would paw the floor with his front feet, so much it stank of fire!

Poor boy! That sounds like a horrible time for you both. Really pleased it eventually got worked out though, the pain must have been excruciating for him.

This horse was evenly short on both fronts which is what made me veer away from that being the cause. Was your boy noticeably lame on the abscess limb or was it very subtle?

 

[Illusion100]

Is it Pastern Dermatitis or Chronic Progressive Lymphedema? It might be worth looking into the possibility of the latter.

I'm not sure what the Vet diagnosed, should find that out!

 

[conniegirl]

Get its spine xrayed pronto.
Sounds just like my lad was with all his legs,
We found advanced arthritis in his spine and hocks, vet said front leg problem likely to be spine arthritis and hind legs a combination of spine and hocks

 

[Orca]

I'm not sure what the Vet diagnosed, should find that out!

From what I understand, it could account for or underlie many of the symptoms you've observed. Picking up could be horrendously uncomfortable. It's possible the shoulder problem could be compensation and the tenseness from pain or compensation too. I'm only guessing, obviously! Poor hoss. I hope whatever it is that it's resolved soon.

 

[Illusion100]

If the horse is really sore on the fronts, this could cause considerable muscle tension trying to compensate.

Is the horse still clipped out on the legs. If at all possible I would check in the folds of skin for fungal/bacterial infection or fissures - this may need to be done under sedation if very sore.

Could do with another clip to make checking easier tbf but apparently needs sedated to clip. All 4 legs were affected with, IIRC, the hinds being worst. Owner found it very tricky to really clean the sores as horse not very compliant, clicker training helped with that but the folds were very deep at time I last saw them and very sore. Huge improvement but horse still seems unhappy. After all the treatment and effort horse seems to be getting worse, not better.

 

[Illusion100]

Get its spine xrayed pronto.
Sounds just like my lad was with all his legs,
We found advanced arthritis in his spine and hocks, vet said front leg problem likely to be spine arthritis and hind legs a combination of spine and hocks

What a terrible shame. How is he doing now?

Will mention your experience to Owner.

 

[Kezzabell2]

Poor boy! That sounds like a horrible time for you both. Really pleased it eventually got worked out though, the pain must have been excruciating for him.

This horse was evenly short on both fronts which is what made me veer away from that being the cause. Was your boy noticeably lame on the abscess limb or was it very subtle?

He was hopping lame! he was on box rest after having his hocks injected, and it was the same leg as the bone spavin, I was walking him in hand, we'd done about 15 mins and had to come back again! the poor thing could barely walk! it was so sore he had to literally chuck himself on the floor to lay down (this was after the vet had dug it out) I post a pic on FB and my farrier saw it, he came out the same night and dug it some more, while he was laying down in pain. This really really helped, by the next morning he was able to stand on 4 legs rather than 3!

I don't know anything about the other issues the horse has, but I'd always try and rule out an abscess first!

Sam's field buddy came in Lymphangitis recently, and I suggested a possible abscess, which they ruled out, gave him anti b's for a week and when he went back out he came straight back in with an abscess! so think the leg was swollen because of a deep abscess!

 

[Illusion100]

From what I understand, it could account for or underlie many of the symptoms you've observed. Picking up could be horrendously uncomfortable. It's possible the shoulder problem could be compensation and the tenseness from pain or compensation too. I'm only guessing, obviously! Poor hoss. I hope whatever it is that it's resolved soon.

Owner really tries hard to keep it managed, it was really horrendous initially and still not resolved. I honestly thought now it has improved so much the horse would appear better, clearly not. You don't happen to know of any treatment that is advised as Owner not having complete success with anything from Vet?

However, I think the horse may have multiple issues that are related/antagonising one another. Just not sure where to begin! Thanks for wishes, will pass onto Owner to cheer them up a bit.

 

[charterline]

Can the horse be kept on box rest in order to clear the dermatitis stuff up?

 

[Illusion100]

He was hopping lame! he was on box rest after having his hocks injected, and it was the same leg as the bone spavin, I was walking him in hand, we'd done about 15 mins and had to come back again! the poor thing could barely walk! it was so sore he had to literally chuck himself on the floor to lay down (this was after the vet had dug it out) I post a pic on FB and my farrier saw it, he came out the same night and dug it some more, while he was laying down in pain. This really really helped, by the next morning he was able to stand on 4 legs rather than 3!

I don't know anything about the other issues the horse has, but I'd always try and rule out an abscess first!

Sam's field buddy came in Lymphangitis recently, and I suggested a possible abscess, which they ruled out, gave him anti b's for a week and when he went back out he came straight back in with an abscess! so think the leg was swollen because of a deep abscess!

Poor sweetheart, he was a proper poorly boy. It's awful when they have to go down from pain.

No leg swelling in this horse but will enquire when farrier is due out again so he can check for any sign of abscess.

 

[Illusion100]

Can the horse be kept on box rest in order to clear the dermatitis stuff up?

Box rest would be possible but horse would be in alone and today when stabled alone was quite convinced the world was ending, so not sure if it would be the best choice. The legs are hugely improved, honestly at first you couldn't touch any lower leg without having pus over your hands, the leg were hot and pretty massive. Picking out the feet was tricky as it was hard to find a non-sore bit to hold BUT oddly horse was easier to hoof pick that it is now that the legs are a great deal better. Very odd.

 

[Orca]

Owner really tries hard to keep it managed, it was really horrendous initially and still not resolved. I honestly thought now it has improved so much the horse would appear better, clearly not. You don't happen to know of any treatment that is advised as Owner not having complete success with anything from Vet?

However, I think the horse may have multiple issues that are related/antagonising one another. Just not sure where to begin! Thanks for wishes, will pass onto Owner to cheer them up a bit.

Not that I've used personally but there is a lot of useful info available online about CPL (definitely worth a read). The unfortunate point is that there is no cure (which also seems to fit with the battle you describe). Sadly, as a progressive condition it can be managed with planning but not cured and prior damage can be difficult to address, so better to start an effective management plan as soon as possible if it might be this.

 

[_HP_]

The owner really needs to have the vet on to do a workup. There's no point guessing if this horse is still so sore it cant walk properly or pick its feet up. It could be Laminitis, the thrush, the sore legs, sore muscles from being tense...many things.
You can't treat it properly if you don't know the actual cause

 

[Goldenstar]

Is the pastern dermatitis completely resolved? If long standing then it may never go away completely. As a person with significant seasonal eczema, I know it can be very painful if the folds of hardened skin crack, leaving open fissures - even tiny ones are very painful.

This is what I would suspect it can make horses unbelievably sore and miserable .

 

[conniegirl]

What a terrible shame. How is he doing now?

Will mention your experience to Owner.

He has had two rounds of injections into his spine and hocks, several rounds of Tilden and will end his 6 months of field rest at the end of Jan.
He is now sound in front but struggling with one hind leg due to the cold.
Poor boy is only 6 years old

 

[Illusion100]

Not that I've used personally but there is a lot of useful info available online about CPL (definitely worth a read). The unfortunate point is that there is no cure (which also seems to fit with the battle you describe). Sadly, as a progressive condition it can be managed with planning but not cured and prior damage can be difficult to address, so better to start an effective management plan as soon as possible if it might be this.

Thank you, would you mind posting me a link for the CPL as I don't think I'm on the right track with the Communist Party of Lithuania......

 

[Illusion100]

The owner really needs to have the vet on to do a workup. There's no point guessing if this horse is still so sore it cant walk properly or pick its feet up. It could be Laminitis, the thrush, the sore legs, sore muscles from being tense...many things.
You can't treat it properly if you don't know the actual cause

I also think the Vet needs to come out again. Despite the previous visits, diagnosis, tx and work-up at clinic they haven't got to the bottom of it. Poor horse and frustrated Owner.

 

[Regandal]

Your friend could try neem oil. Slather it on, doesn't sting even on raw flesh. Very effective. Wear gloves though, as the smell is awful.

 

[Illusion100]

This is what I would suspect it can make horses unbelievably sore and miserable .

It's certainly one of those occasions when you just wish horses could talk and tell you what's wrong.

 

[Illusion100]

He has had two rounds of injections into his spine and hocks, several rounds of Tilden and will end his 6 months of field rest at the end of Jan.
He is now sound in front but struggling with one hind leg due to the cold.
Poor boy is only 6 years old

Bless him, he's so young.

I hope we get a mild winter for him and a happy, sound return in January.