Which saddle??

[atlantis]

So i had a lovely day shopping at YHL yesterday (lots of things bought) and watched a bit of Carl Hester - which was amazing - as always. I could listen to him all day. Also met Hovis who is just fab and was mugging some small children when we saw him lol!!!

I also had a wander around looking at saddles. I sat on the most wonderful albion WH saddle that felt like it put me in a fab position and looked at the native pony saddles all of which looked amazing too.

They were a lot of money though - over £1000 which I don't really have to spare - but could stretch to. Obviously that would mean only one saddle. I do want to do some showing and some dressage and the jumping I'd like to do would be WHP but as she's 14.1 it will be big!!!(for me anyway).

I wanted to look at the kent and master saddles and speak to the people on the stand - and like the sound of the thorowgood T8 dressage (is that right? The one on the cob tree?), but couldn't find them.

So… To get to the point…

Do I look at wh saddles, or dressage saddles - but then I'd need a saddle to jump in, which may as well be a wh saddle as thats all the jumping i'm going to do atm. So is there any point in getting a dressage saddle as the wh saddle is fairly straight cut and I'd get one that puts me in a decent position - or do I get something different entirely. (VSD???)

Opinions - as always - very much appreciated. This forum has become my way of working and thinking things through - so throw all your opinions in there, I don't mind at all.

Oh pony is a long backed Connemara with a bit of wither. I'd post pics of her back but my phone died yesterday!!

 

[Princess Rosie]

If you don't have a big budget then looking for two saddles might exceed your budget. If you want to do all then I would look at a WH saddle, I had an amazingly comfy one which was a farrington. I now have the T8 Dressage which I was dubious about initially as synthetics can be a mixed bag, however I am thrilled with it, very comfy and feels like you are riding in a good leather saddle due to leather seat and knee rolls and my mare likes it very much too. x

 

[Sprig]

I am currently saddle shopping for my new pony and have been having the same dilemma. I have been buying second hand off Ebay to try and find something that suits both of us and then get the saddler back out to pick the best and tweak a required.. The latest purchase is a Black Country WH and I love it. I feel like I am sat very close to her, which I like (and was something I did not like about the Native Pony saddles, I found them very bulky underneath me). It is not too straight cut, but straight enough and puts me in a great position, and has a decent knee roll and small thigh roll so feels very secure, but not restrictive. I also have a Farrington WH on the way so will let you know what I think of that when it arrives. On my old pony I had a Jeffries Falcon Hawk event saddle. That was excellent for doing a bit of everything in as well but obviously has more of a jump bias. Depending on how wide your connie is you may struggle to get the latter to fit. My pony is a NF x Appy and had a very round, wide barrel, large shoulders and some wither (she was in a Wintec Wide with XXW gullet when she came but the tree is too curved for her). My saddler also recommended an Ideal Deal for her shape but I have not managed to find one second hand to buy and try.

 

[sbloom]

If you do get us to come out to you you can try all the different types and see how you feel in them. It sounds like a WH saddle would be the better option, if you feel you're unlikely to ever have the budget for two saddles. If there might be room for two saddles then we might have shown you a very neat GP that is good for WH and every day riding, and you could then get a dressage later, or vice versa.

Sprig I'm surprised you found the NP saddles bulky, though we are now a different named company most people find them just right - more than a very hard close contact showing saddle but less than a lot of "pleasure" saddles, in the right fit you should feel very close to the horse. There is another company who are now the only company making NPSC saddles, despite us co-owning the trademark! We are now AH Saddles and were the stand at YHL, but most people still know us as NP saddles. Which company they came from and how well they are fitted is very influential on how they feel.

 

[MissMistletoe]

Is the pony a 4 year old?

Having had quite a few young Natives over the years, I would not waste money on a brand new saddle just yet!

They change shape so much.

I would find a saddle that is adjustable or a nice quality 2nd hand with as flat a tree as possible. Many of my ponies have had Ideals (Highland and cob trees), Black Country GPDs and Albions. These saddles have cost a maximum of £400 and have great re-sale value.

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

For the moment I'd be looking for a Thorowgood or Kent & Masters Cob GP while your pony fills out - I've been through 7 saddles in a year with my mare (from age 3 to 4) when I finally got a K&M and we've been through all the gullets from wide - xxwide and they still need changing fairly frequently as she changes size. You can do low level showing in it as well as dressage and some jumping.

I wouldn't bother with a VSD tbh, not great for flatwork or jumping so it's like the worst of both, ime.

Personally I'd leave it a year then look at getting a WH to use for dressage also, and a jump saddle if you can stretch to it. You don't necessarily need to spend £1k on a WH saddle - are there any good saddle fitters round by you? They can bring some for you to try and they might stock second hand ones.

 

[sbloom]

Synthetic treed changeable headplates just don't work on all flat backed horses, period. And young horses have soft backs that damage much more easily. If you can find secondhand leather that is usually a better bet, I'm happy to advise on what might work in terms of our saddles, if you can find one of course! I fit several unbacked ponies a year for exactly that reason, with brand new saddles! LIke some other fitters, we are happy to adjust the trees a certain amount, and knowing the breeds and which trees fit them, usually the odds are good of it working long term. A synthetic tree that JUST about works is likely to stop working much sooner as the back gets more muscled and flatter.

 

[FRP]

The Albion you saw, would be the Fiona Cork Showing??
If so, I absolutly adore mine!!.... looks & fit it blows everything out of the water! And the quality & craftsmenship is 2nd to none, as with all Albions!

Deffo worth the money!

 

[PaulnasherryRocky]

It's where you look!
I bought two saddles for just under £1000, I got a bargain Comfort Saddle VSD that had only been on a horse about twice (same company as native pony saddles) and then equally I think I got a real bargain on my Albion K2 Jump- i got that one from preloved and the VSD I bought off of my yard manager.

My saddler came out and measured up my horse and told me exactly what saddle in what size would fit him well- So I just went hunting for it and got lucky, had saddler back and he of course was right about it fitting well!

My horse is also long backed with a fairly prominent wither

 

[atlantis]

The Albion you saw, would be the Fiona Cork Showing??
If so, I absolutly adore mine!!.... looks & fit it blows everything out of the water! And the quality & craftsmenship is 2nd to none, as with all Albions!

Deffo worth the money!

YES!!!!!

It was so beautiful and adjustable to a certain extent, but I do think that it might be a saddle for a year or twos time once she's finished growing and filling out more. . I have been looking for a saddler that brings a range of everything and have been struggling. sbloom do you cover the midlands? You might be what i'm looking for!!

 

[FRP]

YES!!!!!

It was so beautiful and adjustable to a certain extent, but I do think that it might be a saddle for a year or twos time once she's finished growing and filling out more. . I have been looking for a saddler that brings a range of everything and have been struggling. sbloom do you cover the midlands? You might be what i'm looking for!!

They are stunning! I have the WH and love it!!
It so smart & I feel so secure in it.
Its actually my aunt's Sec D's only saddle she does everything from Elem dressage to working hunter classes in it.
And i steal her mare quite often so I can ride in the saddle!

Deffo reccomend trying it & speaking to Fiona about it.
and Fiona lives in the Midlands so deffinatly covers it!

 

[MissMistletoe]

I'm certain that Ideal saddles are adjustable by a half a width to a width.

Have heard good things about Balance saddles and Lavinia Mitchell saddles in the Native pony sector, and there are 2nd hand out there.

 

[Splashy pony]

I got a K&M for my Connie and hated it. I sat in it like an armchair and it never felt secure. I bit the bullet and got a Comfort WH which was what he was in before I bought him. I really love it. I ride much better in it and it feels really secure. I do dressage and can hop a pole (my limit not the saddle). I even make a point of cleaning it every week I respect it so much!

 

[sbloom]

YES!!!!!

It was so beautiful and adjustable to a certain extent, but I do think that it might be a saddle for a year or twos time once she's finished growing and filling out more. . I have been looking for a saddler that brings a range of everything and have been struggling. sbloom do you cover the midlands? You might be what i'm looking for!!

Yes I do . We carry almost all our models and all sizes in stock and fit on the day, no waiting for custom orders for most people. We have two-three models of WH in each tree size, show saddles and neat fitting GPs that some people buy for workers classes.

Any wooden treed saddle is narrowable by up to a tree width and usually widenable by up to two sizes, it is just whether the company and saddle fitter involved are happy to do it or whether they aren't and would rather you buy a new saddle!

The original range of Comfort saddles were designed by Andrea Hicks who I work for - they are sold by the company that does indeed make NPSC saddles, but please look into the history, and the customer reviews, of the company before making any decisions. We used to all be part of the same company, I chose to go and work with Andrea and not them, for many good reasons.

 

[FRP]

it is just whether the company and saddle fitter involved are happy to do it or whether they aren't and would rather you buy a new saddle.

what a peculiar thing to say!
I have personal experience of a wooden tree twisting as a result of moving up just 1 size, so wouldn't recomend it at all!

OP I am also a massive fan of WOW, ride my ISH×WB in a XC & a DR.
we both love the lateral flexion & Flair.
If you can find a fitter try 1, they will tell you all the parts you need & ypu will probably find 1 2nd hand eventually. (My XC was New & found all the bits for a DR 2nd hand)
plus it really is a saddle for life as you can change everything!!

 

[sbloom]

Not a peculiar thing at all, we have been adjusting trees for 15-20 years with no such problems. Most saddle companies will let you send the saddle back to the company to be adjusted once, up to one tree size. It has to be done with care of course.

 

[FRP]

Not a peculiar thing at all, we have been adjusting trees for 15-20 years with no such problems. Most saddle companies will let you send the saddle back to the company to be adjusted once, up to one tree size. It has to be done with care of course.

Oh no, not the talk of adjusting.
The fact that all your posts seem to down talk (wether intentional or not) any fitter other than yourself or any other company bar the one you work for, is what I find perculiar!

 

[sbloom]

Not true either. There are some fitters out there who adjust saddle trees, just as we do. It's a practice I believe in, and many companies offer it even if a particular fitter doesn't. How often do you see someone having to sell a saddle when it's just a bit narrow or wide? I will always tell them that it may well be possible to widen or narrow it, nothing in it for me. I don't like to see people losing money or being ripped off in any other way. Other people find my posts informative as I try to debunk many myths and the whole smoke and mirrors thing of saddle fitting.

 

[FRP]

Not true either. There are some fitters out there who adjust saddle trees, just as we do. It's a practice I believe in, and many companies offer it even if a particular fitter doesn't. How often do you see someone having to sell a saddle when it's just a bit narrow or wide? I will always tell them that it may well be possible to widen or narrow it, nothing in it for me. I don't like to see people losing money or being ripped off in any other way. Other people find my posts informative as I try to debunk many myths and the whole smoke and mirrors thing of saddle fitting.

You have sort of wrote that whole paragraph for no apparent reason.
Im not against adjusting a wood tree, just wouldnt do it personally as there are far better options out there & polymer trees that are designed to withstand such force. (I don't think you can deny the structure of a wood tree is very fragile when subjected to such pressure!?)

My point being you go about every post regarding saddles & do talk down every saddle company & fitter bar yourself and the company you work on behalf.
The most repetitive being your implying that only you can provide a tree flat enough for natives!

 

[FRP]

Stephanie, quick question...
What's your qualification?

 

[sbloom]

I believe you have a WOW and a Fiona Cork saddle? I am quite sure that the fitters that fit those do not all have SMS qualifications and some may have had substantially less training than I have had, I have no idea. I have been through in depth training with the foremost specialist fitter of cobs and natives in the country, continue to have CPD, and have fitted around 700 horses that would mostly fall into that category. I have proven myself to my customers and that is all that really matters. I am really not sure why this is particularly relevant anyway - we all know there are good and bad fitters of every ilk.

It is certainly not relevant to this thread and I suggest you desist from using it to attack me, and instead continue to offer help to the OP as we all have been doing. I have sent you a response to your similar private message.

And actually wood laminates are flexible and strong and perfectly able to withstand some adjustments. Of course it is actually a steel headplate that takes most of the strain and both must be treated with care.

 

[CBAnglo]

Stephanie, quick question...
What's your qualification?

Coupled with this question (which should always be asked) I am always surprised by the number of fitters who are SMS qualified but have never sat on a horse and have no idea if a horse is working correctly through its back or not, freedom of the shoulder etc. Most don't bother even watching the horse being ridden, and even if they did, wouldn't know what to look for anyway.

OP: welcome to the world of Connemara ownership! I think overall getting the right tack has been my hardest challenge my Connemara is the most awkward pony in the world and his tack is a mishmash of pony and cob sizes. He annoyingly will also not grow at an even rate and spent years 4-6 as a lopsided camel with the front end and the back end never actually matching.

 

[Yuki1290]

I would suggest getting a GP saddle, as you say that you want to do a bit of everything.
K&M saddles seem to be very popular at the moment and hold their value well, in case you want to sell later on. I have a Jeffries Falcon for my 14.1 connie that I really rate. Good luck finding the right saddle!

 

[Leo Walker]

Synthetic treed changeable headplates just don't work on all flat backed horses, period.

Of course not and wintecs seem to be very poor, but Thorowogoods really do seem to fit most flat backed horses now and are incredibly adjustable. Mine has gone through 5 saddles in just over a year and now has a leather thorowgood cob saddle, my other one has a synthetic thorowgood cob saddle. Both quite different shapes, the bigger is flattish backed with wither, the littler one is table top flat and incredibly wide but croup high with HUGE shoulders. Second hand leather really didnt work for us, but the adjustable thorowgood does I really rate them for how versatile they are, how helpful thorowgood is if you ever call them, and how good quality they are for the tiny amount they cost

 

[MyDogIsAnIdiot]

Of course not and wintecs seem to be very poor, but Thorowogoods really do seem to fit most flat backed horses now and are incredibly adjustable. Mine has gone through 5 saddles in just over a year and now has a leather thorowgood cob saddle, my other one has a synthetic thorowgood cob saddle. Both quite different shapes, the bigger is flattish backed with wither, the littler one is table top flat and incredibly wide but croup high with HUGE shoulders. Second hand leather really didnt work for us, but the adjustable thorowgood does I really rate them for how versatile they are, how helpful thorowgood is if you ever call them, and how good quality they are for the tiny amount they cost

This ^.

I really resent the implication that I'm damaging my horses back by riding in a changeable gullet saddle.

 

[Flame_]

IIWY I'd buy a second hand dressage saddle and a second hand jumping saddle, because I don't know how the hell anyone manages to jump in WH saddles!

Also as I sometimes buy second hand saddles I prefer saddlers not to mess around with tree widths and for saddles to be the width they're stamped with. If a saddle tree's the right shape but its too wide or narrow it makes more sense to me to buy another the correct width than to start messing with saddle trees.

 

[Lucky788]

I have a VSD/working hunter mainly due to my cobs giant shoulders and that we do dressage but still like to jump, I have still had fun jumping in it for the odd times we do

 

[atlantis]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. Lots of food for thought. I think something to tide us over until we know exactly what we want to do is a good idea. I have a starting point now.

 

[MissMistletoe]

Good idea Atlantis, I too was a little disappointed in the comment regarding adjustable headplates being wrong for flat backed ponies.

Would not want to adjust a saddle more than 1/2 to a whole width either!

 

[sbloom]

I have never implied that any saddle, in itself, will damage your horse's back. not even that, if you have a flat backed pony or horse, that a changeable headplate saddle will damage your horse's back. If anyone can actually find where I said that, please show me. What I do say, is that from the horses I see, and bear in mind that 50% of my fits last week had changeable headplate saddles that were not working, that had been checked recently by a saddle fitter who either said it was fine (even though it was moving) or that nothing more could be done, synthetic treed changeable headplate saddles do not work across the board on flat backs. Wooden treed saddles frequently DO give more stability. Equally, I am not so lacking in imagination that I do not realise that they work for some, which I usually explicitly acknowledge, especially not-so flat backs. Thinking that I am accusing top rider's saddles of not fitting, as I have been, is ridiculous. I simply say they are not always the answer for the market that I fit.

I don't really want to discuss adjusting wooden trees any more as there isn't a lot more to say, but we have proven again and again that trees can be narrowed by up to one size, and widened slightly more than that. We will not adjust trees more than a handful of times, will not widen and narrow again and again, and we do it very carefully. We also will not narrow anything older than five years old. If you had had to buy a brand new saddle, as there were none secondhand of that brand available, because your horse was very hard to fit, and your horse widened by nearly a tree size, twice, would you turn down that saddle being adjusted or would you trade in and by a new one all over again? There will be different answers to this of course, but many owners, not just our customers, are very happy to save some money and to be able to continue riding safely in their saddle for years to come.

Right now I have customers waiting 200 miles away for their saddle checks and new saddle fittings so I'd better leave you all to it.