AndyPandy
Well-Known Member
I was reading a review today of the technologies set to become most popular in horse breeding over the next decade, and wondered what everyone thought. So, just out of interest...
Which technology would you most like to make use of?
- Thread starter AndyPandy
- Start date
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
ET it allows you to breed from your mare whilst she continues with her career, I can see it being alot more widely used and more accessible to everyone, with more places offering the service, the competition will bring the cost down making it more affordable to more breeders.
I think the semen collections have a good use, especially if you have to have your stallion pts suddenly, buts its use is circumstantial to having the stallion gelded or pts.
I don't think cloning will take off just yet, its still too controversial.
I think the semen collections have a good use, especially if you have to have your stallion pts suddenly, buts its use is circumstantial to having the stallion gelded or pts.
I don't think cloning will take off just yet, its still too controversial.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Not sure I believe in cloning..........still does not give you a cast iron guarantee that the horse is going to have the same attributes, as a lot has to do with training and environment as well.
Never thought of the post castration or post mortem. How popular do you see semen being, out of stallions who are gelded for one reason or another? I guess I would have to see more statistics. I can understand about the loss of a stallion and wanting to preserve semen stocks, having been there ourselves.
I just selected ET, and this would only be if it was off an excellent mare.
Never thought of the post castration or post mortem. How popular do you see semen being, out of stallions who are gelded for one reason or another? I guess I would have to see more statistics. I can understand about the loss of a stallion and wanting to preserve semen stocks, having been there ourselves.
I just selected ET, and this would only be if it was off an excellent mare.
KenRehill
Well-Known Member
This is the year in which Quidam's two clones will become available and I think Chellano Z's clone will be collected either next year or 2010. They're coming!!!!!!!!!!
With the price at 300,000 and a covering fee of 7500 for ten straws, what would you do? With 400 mares per year, that gives a ten fold return on your investment on the first year of production (3,000,000). It's an interesting debate.
With the price at 300,000 and a covering fee of 7500 for ten straws, what would you do? With 400 mares per year, that gives a ten fold return on your investment on the first year of production (3,000,000). It's an interesting debate.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Yeah, but things move on. No different to the fact that Argentinus is gone and you mentioned his sons taking over...
Would I breed to a clone of Quidam or Chellano without seeing them do the same in sport that the first ones did...........I am dubious. They may get the return on their investment...but the question remains...will they add quality stock to the gene pool.
We cannot guarantee that full siblings will produce the same offspring to one another, so how do we know that clones will...
Would I breed to a clone of Quidam or Chellano without seeing them do the same in sport that the first ones did...........I am dubious. They may get the return on their investment...but the question remains...will they add quality stock to the gene pool.
We cannot guarantee that full siblings will produce the same offspring to one another, so how do we know that clones will...
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
See controversial....
Ciss
Well-Known Member
I would imagine that ET will become pretty run of the mill in a few years so I suppose I should have voted for that. However, I think that probably the most valuable would be post-mortem semen collection with the provision that it would not be from very old stallions (as these would probably not be modern enough for the current challenges in sport) but would be invaluable in cases of early death of top stallions such as His Highness (if people could get there quick enough to collect in cases of accidental death).
I am a bit concerned about the ethics of the other two alternatives. I am not keen on semen collection post gelding becuase if a stallion is gelded it is usually because of temperament problems (and therefore has not much to recommend him as a sire) or becuase of mismanagement using the dummy leading to a hernia/colic and that sort of bad practice should not be de facto condoned with that sort of get out. Cloning I consider a pointless exercise as if it is used to produce a male clone of a horse that only succeeded in competiton becuase it was gelded then that is not the correct way to improve the breed in future generations and cloning a mare (even poor unfotunate Poetin who was badly lame anyway) seems to be a pointless activity unless the resultant filly is to br used as a stallion mother, which actually dilutes any genetic talent by 505% before you start, especially as the FEI have rued that clones are not eligible for international competition.
I am a bit concerned about the ethics of the other two alternatives. I am not keen on semen collection post gelding becuase if a stallion is gelded it is usually because of temperament problems (and therefore has not much to recommend him as a sire) or becuase of mismanagement using the dummy leading to a hernia/colic and that sort of bad practice should not be de facto condoned with that sort of get out. Cloning I consider a pointless exercise as if it is used to produce a male clone of a horse that only succeeded in competiton becuase it was gelded then that is not the correct way to improve the breed in future generations and cloning a mare (even poor unfotunate Poetin who was badly lame anyway) seems to be a pointless activity unless the resultant filly is to br used as a stallion mother, which actually dilutes any genetic talent by 505% before you start, especially as the FEI have rued that clones are not eligible for international competition.
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
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with the provision that it would not be from very old stallions (as these would probably not be modern enough for the current challenges in sport)
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I have to disagree with you there Ciss, I wish I had known AP when I lost my 28yo stallion last year after he was injured, I would have definitely had a post mortem collection done, despite his age, he still had alot to offer and no one who has seen his foals in the flesh have said anything other than good things, infact I have people fighting over the one that I am not even selling, and how many modern horses are sound, fertile and rideable at 27yos, with his competition record?? I believe that 'some' of the 'old fashioned' bloodlines haven't been beaten yet
with the provision that it would not be from very old stallions (as these would probably not be modern enough for the current challenges in sport)
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I have to disagree with you there Ciss, I wish I had known AP when I lost my 28yo stallion last year after he was injured, I would have definitely had a post mortem collection done, despite his age, he still had alot to offer and no one who has seen his foals in the flesh have said anything other than good things, infact I have people fighting over the one that I am not even selling, and how many modern horses are sound, fertile and rideable at 27yos, with his competition record?? I believe that 'some' of the 'old fashioned' bloodlines haven't been beaten yet
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
Agree with HG that you cannot rule out older stallions as many are still covering up until the time of their death, i.e. Argentinus. However, also agree on stallions that have been lost early in life, Rubinstein, Furst Heinrich and His Highness spring to mind, besides our own stallion.
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
Totally agree, the service would be invaluable for those stallions lost early in life like RG.
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
Embryo transfer is going to become more and more popular as prices come down, I'm sure.
Post-mortem collecion has its place for sure, especially for sudden deaths of younger stallions.
Post-castration is an interesting one. My game is eventing which is a breeding minefield. If you could breed to Primmores Pride, Galan de Sauverge or Sleep Late, for example, you could potentially improve the quality of the modern event horse. Especially as eventers are castrated as standard, unlike sj and dr where colts are often given a chance to prove themselves first.
Cloning is something I know quite a lot about and I think it does have a future for breeding. You can bang on about environmental factors all you like but youre breeding exactly the same genes so you have exactly the same chance of producing something good from the clone as you did from the original horse.
Post-mortem collecion has its place for sure, especially for sudden deaths of younger stallions.
Post-castration is an interesting one. My game is eventing which is a breeding minefield. If you could breed to Primmores Pride, Galan de Sauverge or Sleep Late, for example, you could potentially improve the quality of the modern event horse. Especially as eventers are castrated as standard, unlike sj and dr where colts are often given a chance to prove themselves first.
Cloning is something I know quite a lot about and I think it does have a future for breeding. You can bang on about environmental factors all you like but youre breeding exactly the same genes so you have exactly the same chance of producing something good from the clone as you did from the original horse.
KenRehill
Well-Known Member
The price of ET is unlikely ever to come down. You have to look at the costs. In Europe, the actually cost of consumables is very low. I pay 300 (£200) for the whole job to be done, flush, search, transfer, prosto shot. That includes all the fliuds and containers etc required during the operation. The big cost is the recipient, normally 2800 (£2000) including insurance in case of death.
The recipient owner only gets a payout on that mare once every two years, unless he's extraordinarily lucky and has a cooperative client who's prepared to travel the recip back to the centre to be implanted whilst still having the foal (normaly quite valuable) at foot. Even then it'll be very late in the season, so this is a rarity.
Can you imagine what a mare band of 724 recipients looks like? Keros had to buy six farms in Belgium just to stock the recipients. That just over half of Belgium!!! The other half is owner by Mr Melchior, where does everyone live???????? Now try imagning the costs of maintaining that herd, it's huge, and then daily monitoring so that you have twenty syncronised mares on any one day?????
So in summary, I can't see where the cuttable costs are, thus I don't see prices ever coming down in a meaningful way.
Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
The recipient owner only gets a payout on that mare once every two years, unless he's extraordinarily lucky and has a cooperative client who's prepared to travel the recip back to the centre to be implanted whilst still having the foal (normaly quite valuable) at foot. Even then it'll be very late in the season, so this is a rarity.
Can you imagine what a mare band of 724 recipients looks like? Keros had to buy six farms in Belgium just to stock the recipients. That just over half of Belgium!!! The other half is owner by Mr Melchior, where does everyone live???????? Now try imagning the costs of maintaining that herd, it's huge, and then daily monitoring so that you have twenty syncronised mares on any one day?????
So in summary, I can't see where the cuttable costs are, thus I don't see prices ever coming down in a meaningful way.
Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
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Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
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Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
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Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
KenRehill
Well-Known Member
That's a good question, why would they? Is there a question of credibility? I don't know. Can we be sure that they'll throw the same offspring as the original? I don't know. Could they go to the top of the sport like the original? Possibly not, as the jockey will be different, but then perhaps they could win the gold and silver.
A lot of unanswered questions, which is why it's such an interesting debate.
A lot of unanswered questions, which is why it's such an interesting debate.
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
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Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
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Why should clones not compete? What makes them any different to any other stallion, or full brother to a superstar?? To me, just because they have the same genes does not make them a superstar.
Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
Like every individual, what makes a horse a superstar in their own right is their uniqueness/exclusivity..a clone is just a copy of this (and as you have all said with no guarantees of producing the same), nothing more unless it also proves itself.
[ QUOTE ]
Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
[/ QUOTE ]
Why should clones not compete? What makes them any different to any other stallion, or full brother to a superstar?? To me, just because they have the same genes does not make them a superstar.
Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
Like every individual, what makes a horse a superstar in their own right is their uniqueness/exclusivity..a clone is just a copy of this (and as you have all said with no guarantees of producing the same), nothing more unless it also proves itself.
ashbank
Well-Known Member
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Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
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Although of course these full siblings do not share exactly the same genes..
Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
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Although of course these full siblings do not share exactly the same genes..
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
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Why should clones not compete? What makes them any different to any other stallion, or full brother to a superstar?? To me, just because they have the same genes does not make them a superstar.
Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
Like every individual, what makes a horse a superstar in their own right is their uniqueness/exclusivity..a clone is just a copy of this (and as you have all said with no guarantees of producing the same), nothing more unless it also proves itself.
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Well of course they could compete themselves and that would make them even more credible.
The very fact that they have the same genes means that they have as much ability as the original. Yes, training and different riders would affect their performance record but the point is that they WOULD be able to win a bronze medal if you could standardise everything else.
It's very different to full siblings- the very nature of inheritance gives you a genetic 'pot-luck' Clones have exactly the same genes as the original- you're removing the luck aspect and using identical proven genes.
You breed to a clone, you have as much chance of breeding a superstar as you would if you bred to the original IMHO
Why should clones not compete? What makes them any different to any other stallion, or full brother to a superstar?? To me, just because they have the same genes does not make them a superstar.
Also I bet the people who have bred these superstars have tried to produce the same again by using the same mare/stallion combination to produce the full siblings....yet there are not that many with full brothers of equal quality. You have Caletto I&II, Calypso brothers, Welt Hit brothers.
Like every individual, what makes a horse a superstar in their own right is their uniqueness/exclusivity..a clone is just a copy of this (and as you have all said with no guarantees of producing the same), nothing more unless it also proves itself.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well of course they could compete themselves and that would make them even more credible.
The very fact that they have the same genes means that they have as much ability as the original. Yes, training and different riders would affect their performance record but the point is that they WOULD be able to win a bronze medal if you could standardise everything else.
It's very different to full siblings- the very nature of inheritance gives you a genetic 'pot-luck' Clones have exactly the same genes as the original- you're removing the luck aspect and using identical proven genes.
You breed to a clone, you have as much chance of breeding a superstar as you would if you bred to the original IMHO
Ciss
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
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Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
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As I implied in an earlier post, this is a pretty academic discussion as the FEI -- on advice from the WBFSH (ie from the studbooks) -- has ruled that clones cannot compete anyway.
I would imagine that neither Mr Melchior nor the Zangersheid studbook are paryticularly happy about this, but it is the situation at present and has been arrived at after lengthy discusison by a special working party. Of course what none of the studbooks have yet addressed is whether the clones should have to go through the full grading/licneicng/testing procedure to achieve approved stallion status as this is a whole can of nature/nuture worms (it could fail if it injuired itself, got an infection etc and then what do you do?)
[ QUOTE ]
Anastasia, you made the most vital point..........the clones will have to compete and get to the same level as the cloned animal. Well, Quidam won Bronze at the games, and there aren't many who have even made it to the games, let alone won a medal. Would you want to compete the clones for fear of comparison????????????????
[/ QUOTE ]
Why would the clones have to compete themselves?
I'd have thought it was more vital their offspring proved themselves. The clone has exactly the same genetic potential as the original animal, therefore is capable of winning bronze. It may not throw decent offspring though, just as some sucessful competition stallions dont reproduce anything as good as them.
[/ QUOTE ]
As I implied in an earlier post, this is a pretty academic discussion as the FEI -- on advice from the WBFSH (ie from the studbooks) -- has ruled that clones cannot compete anyway.
I would imagine that neither Mr Melchior nor the Zangersheid studbook are paryticularly happy about this, but it is the situation at present and has been arrived at after lengthy discusison by a special working party. Of course what none of the studbooks have yet addressed is whether the clones should have to go through the full grading/licneicng/testing procedure to achieve approved stallion status as this is a whole can of nature/nuture worms (it could fail if it injuired itself, got an infection etc and then what do you do?)
Ciss
Well-Known Member
PS Can anyone tell me how I can access the poll results? I put my vote in plus my first post but never got a breakdown as a result -- I do expect that I am the only one to cast their single vote the way I did (should have been a multiple choice perhaps but I don't think HHO has the facility for that!
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
You are correct Ashbank.
Can the whole gene process guarantee that there are no hidden anomolies within those guaranteed genes, because at the end of the day its not a normal process they are working with...basically its just lab tests.
Your only way of fully testing this is by putting a foal by the clone of Quidam (for example), along with a foal by the original sire. Put them into exactly the same conditions for the same period and see what the results were from there.
And while this is all pie in the sky for the time being since Ciss is right in what she says... Are the stallions that are being cloned sooo great that something else wont come along and be just as good as them.
For instance Jalisco B was an incredible sire, yet his son Quidam is also incredible. Argentan was a great sire, but Argentinus took over this position and more. Sandro Z is a good stallion, but no one can argue that Sandro Hit is exceptional.
What I am saying is that if breeding is so great then surely onto the right mare, there should be an exceptional son of Quidam to take on his role, without the need for cloning. And perhaps this son will go on to become even better through the mix of blood from an exceptional mare???
Who knows.....
Can the whole gene process guarantee that there are no hidden anomolies within those guaranteed genes, because at the end of the day its not a normal process they are working with...basically its just lab tests.
Your only way of fully testing this is by putting a foal by the clone of Quidam (for example), along with a foal by the original sire. Put them into exactly the same conditions for the same period and see what the results were from there.
And while this is all pie in the sky for the time being since Ciss is right in what she says... Are the stallions that are being cloned sooo great that something else wont come along and be just as good as them.
For instance Jalisco B was an incredible sire, yet his son Quidam is also incredible. Argentan was a great sire, but Argentinus took over this position and more. Sandro Z is a good stallion, but no one can argue that Sandro Hit is exceptional.
What I am saying is that if breeding is so great then surely onto the right mare, there should be an exceptional son of Quidam to take on his role, without the need for cloning. And perhaps this son will go on to become even better through the mix of blood from an exceptional mare???
Who knows.....
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
I think one argued use for cloning is in the case of early decesased sires.
Cloning doesnt mess about at a gene level, thats genetic modification. Cloning is purely taking the entire nucleus which contains the genetic material and inserting it into a new egg cell then implanting it to allow it to develop as a normal fertilised egg cell would.
Testing foal against foal would not work- they will not have identical genes. Only clone and original carry the identical genes so those are the two that you have to place in the same conditions and compete against each other. Of course, you could clone the original then clone the clone and put thos foals against each other but thats all rather beside the point
Cloning doesnt mess about at a gene level, thats genetic modification. Cloning is purely taking the entire nucleus which contains the genetic material and inserting it into a new egg cell then implanting it to allow it to develop as a normal fertilised egg cell would.
Testing foal against foal would not work- they will not have identical genes. Only clone and original carry the identical genes so those are the two that you have to place in the same conditions and compete against each other. Of course, you could clone the original then clone the clone and put thos foals against each other but thats all rather beside the point
Anastasia
Well-Known Member
That maybe is one argument. But one of the clones they have is of a gelding is it not, so one must ask themselves why he was a gelding in the first place, somebody along ET's route must have thought he was not a potential stallion candidate? Also Quidam is not deceased.
What I meant is that you are basically testing two foals out of the same sire (so to speak), one of the original donar, and that of the clone, i.e. you are testing them like for like as sires (was what I was meaning
).
I may be wrong, but if you have a mare, called "Dolly" and you put her to Quidam and also his clone, then you have full siblings in the foals. Now, if you put those foals under the same conditions for say 5 years, with the same environment, same upbringing and eventually same rider....to be correct should they not (although they are not identical in their genes) then have the same ability??
As we all know this is all very hypothetical for the majority because I know that in my lifetime I wont be cloning any horse, and god forbid they ever do it with humans!!
What I meant is that you are basically testing two foals out of the same sire (so to speak), one of the original donar, and that of the clone, i.e. you are testing them like for like as sires (was what I was meaning
I may be wrong, but if you have a mare, called "Dolly" and you put her to Quidam and also his clone, then you have full siblings in the foals. Now, if you put those foals under the same conditions for say 5 years, with the same environment, same upbringing and eventually same rider....to be correct should they not (although they are not identical in their genes) then have the same ability??
As we all know this is all very hypothetical for the majority because I know that in my lifetime I wont be cloning any horse, and god forbid they ever do it with humans!!
Ciss
Well-Known Member
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You are correct Ashbank.
For instance Jalisco B was an incredible sire, yet his son Quidam is also incredible. Argentan was a great sire, but Argentinus took over this position and more. Sandro Z is a good stallion, but no one can argue that Sandro Hit is exceptional.
What I am saying is that if breeding is so great then surely onto the right mare, there should be an exceptional son of Quidam to take on his role, without the need for cloning. And perhaps this son will go on to become even better through the mix of blood from an exceptional mare???
Who knows.....
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And that is actually my whole reason for saying that post-mortem collection from old stallions is not really worth it. If he is a prepotent sire worth his salt he should already have sons are the ground more suited to current conditions that he himself (breeding moves on as A says
) so different situation but same reason for the answer
You are correct Ashbank.
For instance Jalisco B was an incredible sire, yet his son Quidam is also incredible. Argentan was a great sire, but Argentinus took over this position and more. Sandro Z is a good stallion, but no one can argue that Sandro Hit is exceptional.
What I am saying is that if breeding is so great then surely onto the right mare, there should be an exceptional son of Quidam to take on his role, without the need for cloning. And perhaps this son will go on to become even better through the mix of blood from an exceptional mare???
Who knows.....
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And that is actually my whole reason for saying that post-mortem collection from old stallions is not really worth it. If he is a prepotent sire worth his salt he should already have sons are the ground more suited to current conditions that he himself (breeding moves on as A says
) so different situation but same reason for the answer Bossanova
Well-Known Member
Well, like I said, I perhaps look at this from more of an eventing perspective.
Full siblings will have very different genes from each other. Unlike cloned siblings so no, they wont both have the same potential.
Full siblings will have very different genes from each other. Unlike cloned siblings so no, they wont both have the same potential.
firm
Well-Known Member
Could someone please explain to me the thing about clones that I have been wondering about & which will probably show how totally unscientific I am
Clones have identical DNA but can have very different white markings. I read the explaination for this is that cells move while the foal is in the womb so presumably white markings have nothing to do with DNA? But then how do they find for instance sabino markers on DNA? Are there other cells/biological processes, which do not affect DNA, whose effects we cannot see but that could influence a horse e.g. temperament, meaning clones are not actually identical
Clones have identical DNA but can have very different white markings. I read the explaination for this is that cells move while the foal is in the womb so presumably white markings have nothing to do with DNA? But then how do they find for instance sabino markers on DNA? Are there other cells/biological processes, which do not affect DNA, whose effects we cannot see but that could influence a horse e.g. temperament, meaning clones are not actually identical
Bossanova
Well-Known Member
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Could someone please explain to me the thing about clones that I have been wondering about & which will probably show how totally unscientific I am
Clones have identical DNA but can have very different white markings. I read the explaination for this is that cells move while the foal is in the womb so presumably white markings have nothing to do with DNA? But then how do they find for instance sabino markers on DNA? Are there other cells/biological processes, which do not affect DNA, whose effects we cannot see but that could influence a horse e.g. temperament, meaning clones are not actually identical
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Oooh now you really have opened a can of worms!! There's no easy answer to that. Some of the early cloned horses were questioned mainly due to white markings, it's quite difficult to prove if a horse is a clone or not if the cloners refuse to provide you with DNA samples....
Whats for certain is that the base colour and, in theory, amount of white will be standard but the precise distribution may vary between individuals.
Could someone please explain to me the thing about clones that I have been wondering about & which will probably show how totally unscientific I am
Clones have identical DNA but can have very different white markings. I read the explaination for this is that cells move while the foal is in the womb so presumably white markings have nothing to do with DNA? But then how do they find for instance sabino markers on DNA? Are there other cells/biological processes, which do not affect DNA, whose effects we cannot see but that could influence a horse e.g. temperament, meaning clones are not actually identical
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Oooh now you really have opened a can of worms!! There's no easy answer to that. Some of the early cloned horses were questioned mainly due to white markings, it's quite difficult to prove if a horse is a clone or not if the cloners refuse to provide you with DNA samples....
Whats for certain is that the base colour and, in theory, amount of white will be standard but the precise distribution may vary between individuals.
firm
Well-Known Member
Whoops didnt mean to
but thank you for ending my bafflement
ET is something I would consider but in practical terms can't seem me doing it. If I had a young Knabstrupper stallion who died and he had rare bloodlines then I would also consider the semen collection.
ET is something I would consider but in practical terms can't seem me doing it. If I had a young Knabstrupper stallion who died and he had rare bloodlines then I would also consider the semen collection.
vicijp
Well-Known Member
QR,
I would support cloning, as until you have genetically identical animals, all the research into training methods/recovery techniques is just hearsay.
I would like to see training yards dedicated to cloned horses, and maybe even races. The results of these experiments would bring the whole equine sport on hand over fist, much faster than anything has before.
I dont think cloning should be avalable for anything else, it is pretty wrong, and totally unnecessary.
I would support cloning, as until you have genetically identical animals, all the research into training methods/recovery techniques is just hearsay.
I would like to see training yards dedicated to cloned horses, and maybe even races. The results of these experiments would bring the whole equine sport on hand over fist, much faster than anything has before.
I dont think cloning should be avalable for anything else, it is pretty wrong, and totally unnecessary.
Fahrenheit
Well-Known Member
