Whip issues and stubborn pony

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Carlosmum

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I hope this wont be controversial, really I am looking for alternative suggestions.

Pony is very slow off my leg, not helped by constant nagging which I am now getting better at not doing! However the 'back your leg aid up with the schooling whip' approach does not work. If anything, it makes him worse, he jams on his brakes & bucks, spurs have a similar effect, so today I left the whip behind and went for the rein flick... same again, stop buck ears flat back & grumpy face.

He had his back done last week, given all clear to ride as normal, teeth done in June, saddle checked & fitting well. This is not a new behaviour it is entirely the norm for this pony, if he doesn't want to do something he wont!

Have resolved to try & avoid schooling for the time being and try & go on a few fun rides etc. Riding out with another is not an option his stable mate is slower than he is. Am I doomed or can he be 'cured'? He's 11 and should be performing in the show ring or hunter trials etc, but he shows no interest. Need to get him fitter but its tricky when he doesn't want to work.
 
Train him off the voice. Start with some ground work. Lots of praise when he moves, a short sharp 'noise of your choice' when he is still without permission. make it interesting. Lots of changes of direction, and transitions.
 
How often do you try and school? I would be tempted to hack out, do some fun stuff - do you think a hack Followed by a short schooling session would work so he’s thinking more forward? Do you feed/does he have a balancer? My mare tends to be more laid back than hot - I now won’t school more than twice in a row, try and mix work up and have her on a decent balancer - it’s massively changed her way of going in weeks.
 
Firstly it really would be worth a Vet check just to be sure.
Then you will need to find out what the horse enjoys and do as much of that as possible - incorporate your schooling into that.

I very much hesitate to go too deep into tactics to get a horse in front of leg, because experience and timing is critical. But I will say one or two very clear cut lessons is often far more productive long term. You need to be ultra consistent in asking for forwards and releasing whatever pressure you are using the nanosecond you get your response. A couple of things to try would be a padded racing whip (ironically tends to pee them off less), or tie plastic bag to end of a dressage whip.
 
I know this answer is done to death and people are sick of hearing it but have you considered things like PSSM or ulcers? Of the 4 horses we have here, the two who have been reluctant to go forwards when schooling have been found to have these issues (after years of the regular teeth/back/Saddle checks and assuming all is fine). Mine had ulcers and RER and would jam the brakes on and pin his ears if I asked for more go (although seemed ok out hacking other than being spooky). He is now fabulously light off the leg with no attitude. My sisters horse has also been getting very stuffy behind, won’t move off the leg and a bit p*ssy in her attitude and we found she has elevated muscle enzymes too indicating a muscle myopathy. It is taking a lot of understanding on how to manage, plus an excellent osteopath but we are getting better very slowly.

So it may just be a schooling issue but please for the sake of the horse keep really open minded about other reasons for the behaviour. Imagine if you find it has been battling through muscle or gut pain and you had bullied it to work with whip and spurs (not saying you are but I know I felt horrible about having asked mine to work).
 
Having been in a similar position I’d say transitions and lots of them. Avoid the school but school on hacks and make sure you are doing plenty of trot/walk transitions. Don’t let him amble along until you’re on the way back and make sure you do plenty of short bursts of trot to get him resounding and more forward going. .
 
BBP said:
I know this answer is done to death and people are sick of hearing it but have you considered things like PSSM or ulcers? Of the 4 horses we have here, the two who have been reluctant to go forwards when schooling have been found to have these issues (after years of the regular teeth/back/Saddle checks and assuming all is fine). Mine had ulcers and RER and would jam the brakes on and pin his ears if I asked for more go (although seemed ok out hacking other than being spooky). He is now fabulously light off the leg with no attitude. My sisters horse has also been getting very stuffy behind, won’t move off the leg and a bit p*ssy in her attitude and we found she has elevated muscle enzymes too indicating a muscle myopathy. It is taking a lot of understanding on how to manage, plus an excellent osteopath but we are getting better very slowly.

So it may just be a schooling issue but please for the sake of the horse keep really open minded about other reasons for the behaviour. Imagine if you find it has been battling through muscle or gut pain and you had bullied it to work with whip and spurs (not saying you are but I know I felt horrible about having asked mine to work).
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I had thought about PSSM so had him tested, he came back n/n so nothing there. I have put him on to a vit E supplement to see if it helps, it wont harm. I really don't think it would be ulcers, he holds his weight well. This 'not going forward' has always been his way & I expect most of it is because of something I did or didn't do when I was breaking him. TBH I was rather scared of the huge bucks & tanking off he would do at the time, so I probably didn't push when I should have. Not so nervous of him now just disappointed that I cant seem to crack the problem. Some days he is lovely then we are back to square one again. Please excuse my 'moaning' but non horsey family & not really any horsey friends so you guys are the only peeps who might understand!!

gotta go, we are TB testing the last group of cattle this morning, guess I'd better put my farmer hat on
 
Carlosmum said:
I had thought about PSSM so had him tested, he came back n/n so nothing there. I have put him on to a vit E supplement to see if it helps, it wont harm. I really don't think it would be ulcers, he holds his weight well. This 'not going forward' has always been his way & I expect most of it is because of something I did or didn't do when I was breaking him. TBH I was rather scared of the huge bucks & tanking off he would do at the time, so I probably didn't push when I should have. Not so nervous of him now just disappointed that I cant seem to crack the problem. Some days he is lovely then we are back to square one again. Please excuse my 'moaning' but non horsey family & not really any horsey friends so you guys are the only peeps who might understand!!

gotta go, we are TB testing the last group of cattle this morning, guess I'd better put my farmer hat on
Click to expand...

Just to bang the drum a bit more, the rest is only for PSSM, it doesn’t cover all the other variants, collectively grouped under PSSM2 or RER. I had to have mine biopsied to identify his. But an exercise test would be simple and cheap to do to see if there is any underlying muscle damage occurring. I’d highly recommend it.

Mine also looked like he would never have ulcers, he was fat, shiny, on a track system with ad lib hay, all the right stuff. He was never girthy or grumpy to tack up. He does t look like a typical ulcery horse condition wise here does he?
41808219_10160709218775431_8582165691946237952_o.jpg

I guess that’s why I keep banging on about it, because he really wasn’t a classic presentation but once I treated the ulcers and managed the RER I had a horse that went from explosive, planting, refusing to go forwards to one who is a dream go ride, so off the leg and happy and fun to work. It made me with I had looked deeper sooner. (Like you I backed him myself but was a bit scared to put my leg on as he was so unpredictable). So when my sisters 5 year old got stuffy and reluctant and a bit pissy, like riding through glue, we jumped on it a lot faster and sure enough the exercise blood test showed muscle damage.

I’m not saying you are wrong with your horse, but I was very very wrong in thinking that mine was just nuts and could have enjoyed a happy healthy horse a lot earlier so always think it’s a story worth sharing.
 
is he shod? a friend of mine had the same problem with her pony he was very reluctant to move forward and put in bucks etc if a whip was used. he was shod in front only and when i watched him i thought he looked sore behind. she. very reluctantly, had hind shoes put on and within a week he was a changed person, so his misbehaviour was due to pain and nothing else.. if you cannot find a source of pain why not try long reining him to see if you can get him more forward thinking or if you cant do that, what about lunging to try and get him going....also when you ride and use your legs try a double kick and then keep legs still, then another double kick and then still and do that for a while to see if you get a different reaction. good luck
 
Just a thought.Are you allowing him to go forward.When you ask for forward movement release with your hands, even move them forward a little and allow.If he shoots off a bit, let him.
 
I used to have a horse like this. no matter how many whips/spurs you use, it won't work

try to understand his mental state and find out what he enjoys, and do more of that! go to a local gallops? the beach?

lunging can really help the basic fitness.

stay away from "energising" feeds that just make them fat and unhealthy. he'll get all the energy he needs from a simple diet

good luck!
 
BBP said:
Just to bang the drum a bit more, the rest is only for PSSM, it doesn’t cover all the other variants, collectively grouped under PSSM2 or RER. I had to have mine biopsied to identify his. But an exercise test would be simple and cheap to do to see if there is any underlying muscle damage occurring. I’d highly recommend it.

Mine also looked like he would never have ulcers, he was fat, shiny, on a track system with ad lib hay, all the right stuff. He was never girthy or grumpy to tack up. He does t look like a typical ulcery horse condition wise here does he?
41808219_10160709218775431_8582165691946237952_o.jpg

I guess that’s why I keep banging on about it, because he really wasn’t a classic presentation but once I treated the ulcers and managed the RER I had a horse that went from explosive, planting, refusing to go forwards to one who is a dream go ride, so off the leg and happy and fun to work. It made me with I had looked deeper sooner. (Like you I backed him myself but was a bit scared to put my leg on as he was so unpredictable). So when my sisters 5 year old got stuffy and reluctant and a bit pissy, like riding through glue, we jumped on it a lot faster and sure enough the exercise blood test showed muscle damage.

I’m not saying you are wrong with your horse, but I was very very wrong in thinking that mine was just nuts and could have enjoyed a happy healthy horse a lot earlier so always think it’s a story worth sharing.
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Totally this. Mine is fat but had gut issues and PSSM. I too dismissed it as laziness.

If you want to do things with THIS pony, investigate. Otherwise get one that will work willingly. Now I know the issues I regret using the whip on mine.. she just couldn’t no matter how hard she tried.
 
Carlosmum said:
I had thought about PSSM so had him tested, he came back n/n so nothing there. I have put him on to a vit E supplement to see if it helps, it wont harm. I really don't think it would be ulcers, he holds his weight well. This 'not going forward' has always been his way & I expect most of it is because of something I did or didn't do when I was breaking him. TBH I was rather scared of the huge bucks & tanking off he would do at the time, so I probably didn't push when I should have. Not so nervous of him now just disappointed that I cant seem to crack the problem. Some days he is lovely then we are back to square one again. Please excuse my 'moaning' but non horsey family & not really any horsey friends so you guys are the only peeps who might understand!!

gotta go, we are TB testing the last group of cattle this morning, guess I'd better put my farmer hat on
Click to expand...
Get ulcers checked, we had a horse on our yard the owner said the same and they have ulcers and back pain not regularly managed. He’s uncomfortable that’s all and it’s so painful to watch the owners ignorance hurt this horse.
 
Emmadenise said:
Get ulcers checked, we had a horse on our yard the owner said the same and they have ulcers and back pain not regularly managed. He’s uncomfortable that’s all and it’s so painful to watch the owners ignorance hurt this horse.
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I hope they've sorted it by now, this was from 5 years ago! 😊
 
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