Whip rules - how ridiculous we appear to the ROTW ......

Regardless of your opinion on the whip I don't think we should be looking towards China for any advice on animal welfare, or human welfare for that matter!
 
Whips & racing are a welfare issue, which has been addressed now the same way as farm animal welfare is gradually being addressed in the UK. Not so a LOT of other countries.I know which country I would rather be in were I an animal. Wasn't it in China where 18 people walked past the toddler recently that had been run over by a car, left her there to be run over again. There is caring & not caring in this world, try & care. sorry to preach, touched a nerve is all.
 
Given the dripping sarcasm in the story, it's hard to see what the story really is....

Sorry Caledonia, I know how passionate you are about the sport, and how knowledgeable - but I see the new rules on the use of whips as good for the sport......

Running off to hid now :o:p:D
 
How come people keep hatin' on China? It's not that bad and the people certainly aren't all completely ignorant about welfare! Sorry ^^ Just something that gets to me!

I can't really comment on this subject though, I'm not really knowledgeable enough in the racing scene.
 
Annielusian said:
How come people keep hatin' on China? It's not that bad and the people certainly aren't all completely ignorant about welfare! Sorry ^^ Just something that gets to me!

I can't really comment on this subject though, I'm not really knowledgeable enough in the racing scene.
Click to expand...

Lol, I agree wwith you. China happens to be quite a big place, with a few people in it. You will get evil people, cruel people in China as well as nice people, caring people etc. You can find examples of this anywhere.
So yeas China is not perfect but that doesn't mean we can not learn from them. It is racist and very closed mind to disregard everything that comes out of China. I am aware of human right in China, and its not fantastic, but before you critise everything that comes out of China you should take a long hard look at yourself.

And the new whip rules are ridiculous and have not improved horse's welfare.
 
Did anyone criticise everything that comes out of China, I think not. A country has many parts, but I think you would be hard pressed to find somewhere where 18 people would walk past a seriously injured toddler in the street. It is a matter of opinion whether the new whip rules are for the good of horses (after the last Grand National I know where I stand) and I would defend anyones right to an opinion. I know mine.
 
We discussed this in another thread, but it doesn't just happen in China. 4 people I KNEW walked past me when I was moaning and groaning, collapsed on the ground. For all they knew I could have been hit by a car. I was moaning for them to help, or call my mum, but they just gave me a wide birth. Luckily it was just lady problems and I was ok the next day, but it could have been very very serious.

Also, Hong Kong is very different from the rest of China. It's not as dangerous and they have a lot of western ways, since it was under British rule for a long long time!
 
For those of you talking about China's welfare rights -

Did you actually read the article, or did you not get past the words in the paper title?

The whole point is that the whip ban furore is NOT about welfare or animals being compromised, it's about the ridiculousness of the penalties and the way they have been applied.

An example of how the whip rules stand at the moment - if Ruby Walsh has an extra strike of his whip in the heat of the moment, he's going to lose work for another ten days. So for two extra taps with a whip - and that is what they are now, he cannot work for more than half a month?

Regardless of your opinion on the whip, this is about ridiculous penalties.
 
Last edited:
amymay said:
Given the dripping sarcasm in the story, it's hard to see what the story really is....

Sorry Caledonia, I know how passionate you are about the sport, and how knowledgeable - but I see the new rules on the use of whips as good for the sport......

Running off to hid now :o:p:D
Click to expand...

Don't hide - explain why you think it's good - because I genuinely don't see that.

It's the first step to banning racing, and as soon as that happens all other horse sports will be next.
 
I didn't read the article because I wouldn't really understand it anyway. I don't know the rules and regs of racing and I only catch the occasional race on Channel 4.
It wasn't anything you said particularly, but rather the whole attitude towards China people seem to have since that horrible incident with that poor little girl.
 
off topic, sorry.

I think peoples attitudes towards china has to do with rather more than the incident with the toddler. To be honest, i was not at all surprised by it.

Human rights? Animal welfare?
 
Caledonia said:
For those of you talking about China's welfare rights -

Did you actually read the article, or did you not get past the words in the paper title?

The whole point is that the whip ban furore is NOT about welfare or animals being compromised, it's about the ridiculousness of the penalties and the way they have been applied.

An example of how the whip rules stand at the moment - if Ruby Walsh has an extra strike of his whip in the heat of the moment, he's going to lose work for another ten days. So for two extra taps with a whip - and that is what they are now, he cannot work for more than half a month?

Regardless of your opinion on the whip, this is about ridiculous penalties.
Click to expand...

It is absolutely gut wrenching, I don't agree with any part of the ban, I think the penalties are so far fetched, and I admire Richard Hughes for his stand.
 
Whilst I am all for reducing the bumber of times jockeys can hit a horse it needs to be taken into perspective.

I would count a strike as a backhander - what you see in the drive for the line. I would not, however, count correctional smacks to keep a horse straight or to pick up for a fence.

The penalties for breaking the rules are ridiculous! You seriously can't expect these lads to go out and put their lives on the line for absolutely nothing?!? Britain is now giving overseas jockeys second thoughts about even coming over to ride just incase they get banned - which carries over to their own countries. We are curtailing their lively hoods. If they don't ride they don't get paid simple as. Both Irelands top Jump and Flat jockey have said they will be seriously considering what rides they take in the UK and it has to be good enough races to make it worth their while.

I also agree with Keiron Fallons point - why is it only the jockey that gets punished? If the horse won the race because of the extra incentive then the horse should also be disqualified. It will also be fairer on the 2nd placed horse and it's connections because technically the winner only won by cheating.

What also bugs me is that in Flat racing you can strike a horse 7 times in the race - no matter whether it is a 5f sprint or a 1m6f. Same with jumping, you can hit them 9 times regardless of whether its a zippy 2m hurdle or a 3m4f chase. Ammendments need to be made for this.

I can see things settling down with the flat jockeys as they will soon learn to count. Jumping it will take a while longer as you drive for a longer period of time and you also have a minimum of 8 hurdles or 10 fences in the way of the finish line.
 
For the record - as far as the whip rules go: I think it's nice that they want to cut down the number of times the horse is hit, but the counting thing is silly! Especially if you're jumping! Imagine trying to count to 9, while trying to control a horse, while trying to win a race, while trying to watch out for where other riders are and while trying to concentrate on a whole bunch of other stuff.
 
The new rules were brought in because a bunch of Fluffy Bunny Huggers watched the Grand National for the first time in their lives. It was a baking hot day and they saw the horses knackered - as they had every right to be galloping and jumping over 4m4f and big massive fences. They also saw horses being dismounted and have gallons and gallons of water poured over them within seconds on crossing the line.

What RACING failed to do that day, which has brought about this entire mess, is alert the general public to the fact that they had requested that the jockeys dismount the second they safely could once across the finish line. All of the stable lads and lasses, all of the ground staff and vets were there as well with the same instructions - get water onto and into the horses as soon as you possibly can. No one cared that they got soaked, that their tack got soaked or that they made a bloomin great big mess because it was for the BENEFIT of the horses. Plus the humans could probably have done with a few buckets launched over them themselves that day!

The winner or placed horses didn't go into the winners enclosure so they could be attended to - not to hide how tired they were or to indicate that there was a problem but to get them the help they would clearly need.
 
I have versed my opinions on these ridiculous rules elsewhere at great lengths and totally stand by what I have said.
The rules are ludicrous and totally unworkable.
I commended Richard Hughes for his stand on the issue and personally think that he should have replaced Kevin Darley at the PJA but that is another matter.
The BHA is making the racing in the UK a laughing stock around the globe.
First they angered French Jockey Soumillon and now they are at risk of alienating top Irish jockeys, with Ruby Walsh and Johnny Murtagh already stating that they will be limiting their trips to the UK.
Barry Geraghty who is due to ride at the weekend for Nicky Henderson has also expressed his concern of riding in the UK at the weekend.
It is all a big mess and totally avoidable.
Exactly who did the BHA consult over these changes?
It seems to me that they have no respect for jockey, trainer, owner, punter and racegoer alike!
These changes have done nothing to improve horse welfare in racing.
The whips are foam and very, very soft on the horse!
What the BHA has done though is condemn more horses to the scrap heap and even death.
One paced stayers, or quirky horses won't be winning as many races now. Owners, trainers and the punters will give up on them. Where will all these unwanted horses go?
The new rules affect the jumps game more than the flat in my opinion and the number of permitted strikes in a race over jumps is a joke!
I am just bitterly angry that this British Authority has seemingly ruined a sport which I have enjoyed ( and in the past employed in) for over 26 years!
I also know that judged my many responses on certain publication I am not alone on these sentiments.
 
What the "fluffy bunny huggers" saw in this years Grand National was a horse being whipped at least 14 times in the final run in. Maybe if that jockey had not ridden that horse like he did on that day i would be more sympathetic to the "whip count" cause.

I have to agree though that giving the horse a tap on the shoulder to remind him to keep straight and focus is in no way comparable to being smacked on the quarters BUT if it means jockeys think more about riding to get the best out of the horse and less about picking up the whip to force it then i am all for it!
 
Fantasy_World said:
I have versed my opinions on these ridiculous rules elsewhere at great lengths and totally stand by what I have said.
The rules are ludicrous and totally unworkable.
I commended Richard Hughes for his stand on the issue and personally think that he should have replaced Kevin Darley at the PJA but that is another matter.
The BHA is making the racing in the UK a laughing stock around the globe.
First they angered French Jockey Soumillon and now they are at risk of alienating top Irish jockeys, with Ruby Walsh and Johnny Murtagh already stating that they will be limiting their trips to the UK.
Barry Geraghty who is due to ride at the weekend for Nicky Henderson has also expressed his concern of riding in the UK at the weekend.
It is all a big mess and totally avoidable.
Exactly who did the BHA consult over these changes?
It seems to me that they have no respect for jockey, trainer, owner, punter and racegoer alike!
These changes have done nothing to improve horse welfare in racing.
The whips are foam and very, very soft on the horse!
What the BHA has done though is condemn more horses to the scrap heap and even death.
One paced stayers, or quirky horses won't be winning as many races now. Owners, trainers and the punters will give up on them. Where will all these unwanted horses go?
The new rules affect the jumps game more than the flat in my opinion and the number of permitted strikes in a race over jumps is a joke!
I am just bitterly angry that this British Authority has seemingly ruined a sport which I have enjoyed ( and in the past employed in) for over 26 years!
I also know that judged my many responses on certain publication I am not alone on these sentiments.
Click to expand...

Absolutely bang on the money.

Allover - one over the top ride jumped upon by the bandwagon of animal activist groups (not animal welfare groups), is NOT reason to cause the total disarray racing is experiencing.
 
I don't really see the problem - the rule is the same for everyone, so everyone is disadvantaged the same. If you can't train your horses without whipping them more than that, then you need to change your techniques. Racing is supposed to ignite the horses innnate flight response, and I don't see how this is aided by whipping. If the whips are as soft as the reckon they are, whats the point in hitting the horses anyway?!

I see the point that maybe jump racing may be allowed more, as to give a horse a smack before a fence can make the difference between getting or not getting a stride, but for flat racing?

I doubt I would be allowed to hit my horse more than 7 times in an SJ round without being called before the judge (and I should if I did that!) and an SJ round can often be longer in time than a flat race.

And if jockeys can't count to 7, then I really don't know what to say!
 
Stencilface said:
I don't really see the problem - the rule is the same for everyone, so everyone is disadvantaged the same. If you can't train your horses without whipping them more than that, then you need to change your techniques. Racing is supposed to ignite the horses innnate flight response, and I don't see how this is aided by whipping. If the whips are as soft as the reckon they are, whats the point in hitting the horses anyway?!

I see the point that maybe jump racing may be allowed more, as to give a horse a smack before a fence can make the difference between getting or not getting a stride, but for flat racing?

I doubt I would be allowed to hit my horse more than 7 times in an SJ round without being called before the judge (and I should if I did that!) and an SJ round can often be longer in time than a flat race.

And if jockeys can't count to 7, then I really don't know what to say!
Click to expand...
Why you crack a lunge whip behind a horse - THE NOISE! These sticks make one hell of a racket! Would you prefer the jocks to use pink sparkly whips with a star on the end from the local tack shop? Anywho as has previously been said it's not so much about the number of times the horse is struck it's more about the excessive punishments meted out to the jockeys.
 
Stencilface said:
I don't really see the problem - the rule is the same for everyone, so everyone is disadvantaged the same. If you can't train your horses without whipping them more than that, then you need to change your techniques. Racing is supposed to ignite the horses innnate flight response, and I don't see how this is aided by whipping. If the whips are as soft as the reckon they are, whats the point in hitting the horses anyway?!

I see the point that maybe jump racing may be allowed more, as to give a horse a smack before a fence can make the difference between getting or not getting a stride, but for flat racing?

I doubt I would be allowed to hit my horse more than 7 times in an SJ round without being called before the judge (and I should if I did that!) and an SJ round can often be longer in time than a flat race.

And if jockeys can't count to 7, then I really don't know what to say!
Click to expand...

What a patronising comment about the jockeys counting.
They have split seconds to judge pace, how other horses are travelling around them, where the favourite is, where they want to be to make their move for the line, keeping straight, keeping out of trouble, watching for horses dropping back from the front, being alert to their own horses and their reactions to what is going on around them, and all this in a very short space of time travelling at 30mph plus in a tightly packed bunch of horses. I think they can be forgiven an error of one counting under those circumstances?

And in an extended chase in heavy ground, over 7 minutes plus, do you seriously expect the jockeys to count the stick use? The previous remarks all apply, apart from the bunching and the speed - they're still race riding at 20mph plus and the reactions stillhave to be like lightening. Differrent hazards though - fences, fallers, ground conditions - to compare it to a round of low level showjumping is risible.

Racehorses react to a whip a bit like spurs - I've ridden horses that are bone idle without them, but put them on, use them lightly and they are vastly more forward. But occasionally the need them used. The stick is the same at the same at the end of a race, it's to generate impulsion. The jockeys ride in a rhythm and balance, and the use of the whip is part of that.

Spurs don't 'hurt' the horse unless massively abused, neither does the whip.

The rules did not need changing - but they very much need to go back now - these are people's livelihoods at stake.

I am stunned at the lack of understanding from people who do ride horses.
 
One thing that I have yet to hear, and didn't find in the BHA's "Review of the use of the whip in Horseracing", is an explanation of why a complete ban of whip use for "encouragement" (but not steering and safety) would be unacceptable. It would simplify the regulations and get round the matter of counting strikes which I agree is totally arbitrary.
 
The whip is NOT used as a form of punishment in racing it is an aid used by jockeys to encourage the horse to move forwards. If used in the wrong way in which it would be inflicting pain upon a horse the horse would "curl up" beneath the jockey and would not be benficial in any way. The jockey's job as a horseman is to understand when a horse is responding to the whip and when it is not.
I have ridden 1000's of racehorses and not one has ever been afraid of the whip. I could quite happily play about with my stick all day on the back of one and they wouldn't flinch. Unlike alot of showjumpers who would have an attack if I started twirling a stick about when on their back.
People should really get their hands on a racing whip to understand the difference between one and a normal everyday stick, they make a noise they do not inflict pain. Jockeys also have to strike a horse on their rump. Not just behind their leg across the ribcage which is what alot of showjumping riders do!!
I just cannot understand why horse people are so against racing. They should seriously open their eyes as to what goes on in their own sport before passing judgement.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top