Whip rules - how ridiculous we appear to the ROTW ......
- Thread starter Caledonia
- Start date
Elf On A Shelf
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As one journalist said (I can't remember which one) hand a 6yo child a racing whip and get them to hit you as hard as they can with it.
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
I think because one person's steering is another's encouragement. It would be another woolly area that becomes hard to police.
Elf On A Shelf
...
Watched many races over many years
I meant this years races
Jason Maguire struck Ballabrigs 14 times after the final fence of a 4 1/2mile race with 38 huge fences to negotiate in the Grand National. The German jockey that rode Danetime to win the Arc - I lost count of the number of time he struck his horse but it was verging on twice a stride in the final 2 furlongs. Once on the shoulder on the way up for the big backhander. EVERY SINGLE STRIDE. He got a 14 day ban. If he had done that in Britain this week then he would have had his licence revoked.
Just putting things in perspective
fburton
Well-Known Member
I used to be near obsessed with racing in the 1980s. For four or five years, I watched every single race broadcast on BBC and Channel 4 TV, even if it meant taping them and watching them later. I used to be pretty good at picking winners based on form, and even better at spotting which ones would not do well from their behaviour in the paddock, though the only time I bet money was at a works outing to Ayr, when I won over £5 on 50p stakes - whoopee! I really wasn't interested in betting though.Watched many races over many years
fburton
Well-Known Member
Are strikes behind the saddle used for steering?
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
I love racing and watch a lot of it. I thought Jason Maguire hit Ballabriggs excessively in the National. I originally thought the new whip rules would work, as to be fair so did a lot of others - including AP, Dettori and Paul Nicholls. However, in practice it absolutely isn't working and needs dropping, preferably. Its like the gun laws, instead of enforcing properly what was there they made it all stupid.
Take Ruby Walsh, for instance, I doubt has ever had a whip ban before, I think hes a master of getting the most out of a horse without beating it, and now he may not come and ride here so much, and hes a joy to watch.
Is there anyone in particular its worth lobbying about the new rules?
Take Ruby Walsh, for instance, I doubt has ever had a whip ban before, I think hes a master of getting the most out of a horse without beating it, and now he may not come and ride here so much, and hes a joy to watch.
Is there anyone in particular its worth lobbying about the new rules?
fburton
Well-Known Member
Ok, so if the whips really don't hurt and it's the noise the horse is responding to, why on earth regulate their use at all?
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
Because the general public wanted it and demanded action...a kneejerk response to the National coverage.
Elf On A Shelf
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Nope! The BHA listened to Fluffy Bunny Huggers rather than the Professionals they helped to train! So what hope is there for us mere mortals? Unless of course we turn into Fluffy Bunny Huggers but then that defeats the purpose!
As for Ruby Walsh - not the worlds biggest fan - soz
I'm on team McCoy and Geraghty 
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Ok, may have been patronising, but new rules come in - deal with them the proper way instead of feet stamping and striking.
Might just be me, I have no time for people who go on strike. If I went on strike at work, I would soon be shown the door......
Trouble is with the whip thing, people are making such a hoo ha about it, getting the general public involved, where they think this is the major issue in racing, when its anything but. I think the amount of horses being bred is a far greater issue but that has not had the same impact in the press
And I really get fed up with the fluffy bunny hugger angle, honestly! There are shades of grey when it comes to horse welfare, and I am proud to say I don't mind being called whatever as long as animal welfare remains a priority.
Might just be me, I have no time for people who go on strike. If I went on strike at work, I would soon be shown the door......
Trouble is with the whip thing, people are making such a hoo ha about it, getting the general public involved, where they think this is the major issue in racing, when its anything but. I think the amount of horses being bred is a far greater issue but that has not had the same impact in the press
And I really get fed up with the fluffy bunny hugger angle, honestly! There are shades of grey when it comes to horse welfare, and I am proud to say I don't mind being called whatever as long as animal welfare remains a priority.
fburton
Well-Known Member
But weren't there regulations about "excessive use" before the National coverage?
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
Yes, as there are regulations in all horse sports.
Allover
Well-Known Member
I meant this years races
Jason Maguire struck Ballabrigs 14 times after the final fence of a 4 1/2mile race with 38 huge fences to negotiate in the Grand National. The German jockey that rode Danetime to win the Arc - I lost count of the number of time he struck his horse but it was verging on twice a stride in the final 2 furlongs. Once on the shoulder on the way up for the big backhander. EVERY SINGLE STRIDE. He got a 14 day ban. If he had done that in Britain this week then he would have had his licence revoked.
Just putting things in perspective
For one reason or another i was not able to watch either this year though i have watched this years GN on youtube after my mum commented on it. It was not a good display of horsemanship whichever way you chose to look at it.
It does not mean that i want to see a ban to all racing or that i want to see a complete ban on whips in racing, nor does it mean that i am a bunny hugger, i just do not want to see a horse pushed like that again.
If this means that some harsh lessons are had then so be it.
BHA can only look out for their own organisation, how the ROTW choose to legislate their jockeys is down to them. You never know this may turn out to be a positive thing for the sport and the horses in particular.
Clodagh
Playing chess with pigeons
Nope! The BHA listened to Fluffy Bunny Huggers rather than the Professionals they helped to train! So what hope is there for us mere mortals? Unless of course we turn into Fluffy Bunny Huggers but then that defeats the purpose!
As for Ruby Walsh - not the worlds biggest fan - soz
I like them too...Barry Geraghty is well cute LOL.
But your post is being defeatist, the bunny huggers successfully lobbied so lets us lot lobby too...who do I write to...The BHA Head of Welfare?
fburton
Well-Known Member
Very good point!Trouble is with the whip thing, people are making such a hoo ha about it, getting the general public involved, where they think this is the major issue in racing, when its anything but. I think the amount of horses being bred is a far greater issue but that has not had the same impact in the press
Is there still room for improvement when it comes to rehabilitation of ex-racers? I remember the TV interview of a Jockey Club spokesman - some time in the 1980s, I expect - who shamefacedly admitted that not a penny was spent by them on this (leaving people like me to donate to the likes of the TRC for that purpose).
fburton
Well-Known Member
How can there be "excessive use" of the whip if it does no harm?
Holly Hocks
Well-Known Member
As for Ruby Walsh - not the worlds biggest fan - soz
I'm not going to comment on the whip ban as I'm torn both ways, however I still have images in my mind of the delightful Mr Waley-Cohen in the jockey's room after winning the Gold Cup on Long Run.....he had his shirt off........lovely...
Oh, and back from the daydreaming, I also like the younger jockeys. Sam Twiston-Davies and James Reveley especially.
Leaf
Well-Known Member
the use of the whip had to change the public dislike seeing a horse being whipped xx times and racing has to move forward, but I think the big falling down point made by the BHB is not the amount of hits but that the jockeys take the financial punishment via ban & prize money and the owners/trainers/lads & punters keep theirs and the horse keeps the race. If the horse is disqualified everyone loses not just the jockey.
Elf On A Shelf
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The one thing that puts me off Sam are his initials ...
RunToEarth
Well-Known Member
The real problem(and lifeline, depending on what is happening) that racing faces is that the vast majority of people involved with racing know very little about the sport- im betting that 97% of people who watch racing have no idea it is the sound of a whip that motivates a horse, but it is a Spectator sport, and people aren't expected to know.
The problem comes when everyone jumps on the cruelty waggon, smacks of ignorance for everyone who works fingers to the bone for these horses' welfare, but that is gratitude. To everyone who patronises jockey's for their inability to count- take an instinct and restrict it with immediate effect, it isn't going to be anything like easy.
It is funny how everyone on here is an expert on everything.
The problem comes when everyone jumps on the cruelty waggon, smacks of ignorance for everyone who works fingers to the bone for these horses' welfare, but that is gratitude. To everyone who patronises jockey's for their inability to count- take an instinct and restrict it with immediate effect, it isn't going to be anything like easy.
It is funny how everyone on here is an expert on everything.
stencilface
High upon a hillside
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
Ok, may have been patronising, but new rules come in - deal with them the proper way instead of feet stamping and striking.
Might just be me, I have no time for people who go on strike. If I went on strike at work, I would soon be shown the door......
Trouble is with the whip thing, people are making such a hoo ha about it, getting the general public involved, where they think this is the major issue in racing, when its anything but. I think the amount of horses being bred is a far greater issue but that has not had the same impact in the press
And I really get fed up with the fluffy bunny hugger angle, honestly! There are shades of grey when it comes to horse welfare, and I am proud to say I don't mind being called whatever as long as animal welfare remains a priority.
So how do they deal with it - as it stands jockeys are losing a quarter of their monthly income for one stroke over? The longer they wait the more get banned - because the rule is unworkable.
I don't disagree about over breeding, but that is a separate argument and racing is not the main culprit in that sorry mess. The reason it's not in the press is because it doesn't inflame idiots.
And finally - it's nothing to do with animal welfare. Racing is the new foxhunting, unfortunately..........
fburton
Well-Known Member
Was that with a padded whip, which only makes a noise? If so, why would it matter how many times the jockey struck the horse? This is one of the pieces of the jigsaw puzzle that simply doesn't seem to fit.
Another question, a historical one: why was the whip changed from one which (presumably) could hurt to one which can't? Was it due to public objections or did the motivation come from inside racing?
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
Racing in HK is based on the English system, I suspect that it has a higher level of welfare than elsewhere in China, and should be applauded not castigated.
The article is a reasoned argument, and I agree with its general sentiments, most particularly that the BHA has shot itself in the foot, bringing a "welfare" issue on to "News at Ten" , and sticking to its [own] hypothesis that the general public is up in arms following the ride Ballabriggs got in the 2010
At the time the Guardian reported............
.........................."Ballabriggs at 14-1 gave the new generation of the McCain family victory in a race which will always be associated with their name when grinding out success in a bruising renewal of the John Smith's Grand National." ............. not what I would call "public outrage"
The Daily Mail has a different take on the race.
Aintree's darkest day: Critically ill jockey fights for life after BBC is accused of Grand National 'carnage coverup' over deaths of horses
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ggs-wins-day-drama-Aintree.html#ixzz1bs7Li2s5
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AmyMay
Situation normal
Now, I don't see it as that at all. I see it as recognising that hitting six bells out of a horse that's allready running it's heart out isn't going to make it run any faster.........
AmyMay
Situation normal
There is no way on God's earth that the horse will hear the sound that the whip makes whilst racing - sound has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Caledonia
Well-Known Member
Yes, it was a padded whip - the BHA have knee jerked to the spin sold to the papers by Animal Aid's mouthpiece. They have been incredibly stupid, racing people were not consulted before the rules were set up and implemented, and this is why we are where we are now. Their misguided (at best) attempts to compromise with the perceived welfare issue, when in fact it is not a welfare issue, have brought it to this.
The bitter little anti-racing twonk behind AA saw the opportunity to link the jockeys getting off the horses (they were told to beforehand) and hosing them down in public (common practice for EVERY horse after EVERY race, usuually done at the stables, but sometimes in public if the weather is unseasonally hot as it was then), Ballabriggs needing oxygen (not uncommon, some horses do), the fact Jason Maguire got done for excessive use of the whip (yes, he exceeded the number and was duly punished - the number was introduced before whips were padded as they are now, but the restricted number remained) and the fact that two horses died. All these facts were presented as being because of the whip.
The problem lies in that it doesn't look pretty seeing the horses hit with the whip, especially when a tired jockey and horse are less than balanced and giving their all. But it is a marathon race. I've seen plenty horses more tired a few fences from home eventing, and that's across ALL levels.
As regards motivation, there were people within racing that didn't like the whip regs as they were, I was one of them. When Cool Ground won the Gold Cup he was subject to excessive use of the whip. It wasn't pretty, he won, but he never really came back after that. I think that race changed things. So I guess the answer to your second question is both in and out of racing.
Although at the that point I believe the AA bloke was still a bookie, so he wasn't bothered about it then!
Miss L Toe
Well-Known Member
I think that the whip rules were updated in line with general welfare upgrades over the decades, which included introducing "whip training" following excessive use.
In the 1990's horses were routinely inspected after racing for whip damage, and jocks and trainers were taken to task, at the time M Pipe responded by NOT clipping horses bellies.
Jockeys who flouted whip rules had to change their ways, or end up getting banned, AP McCoy took note, and changed his ideas and his whip technique.
The rules were introduced and refined, now we have a situation with "good for welfare" rules, but in practice the rules are causing major problems, as was predictable, and inevitable.
By making high profile appointments to the BHA, there is a "need" for this "new blood" to make an impact. ... unfortunately "the baby has been thrown out with the bathwater"
NOTE: The RSPCA seem to think they should spend time on the political agenda, and prefer to concentrate on high profile races like the GN, where all horses are checked by vets before running, a good idea,, or a waste of money?
Really, imho, the GN issue is the large number of horses and the reckless speed in the early stages.
Personally I think that the RSPCA should go back to the grassroots, going to horse markets and sorting that problem out, the General Public think they are donating to prevent cruelty to animals [the clue is in the name] and to be honest UK Racing generally has a high standard of welfare.
KautoStar1
Well-Known Member
well you all know my thoughts on this stupid new rule and its poorly executed implementation. Oddly enough, there were 900 incidents of 'whip misuse' last year, which equates to less than 1% of all the horses that ran last year and only approx 20 who were marked by the whip (and 20 is too many, I don't disagree with that) But I suspect there will be more whip bans this season than last, simply because of this badly thought out rule. Which will make the so called 'abuse' figures even worse.
As a race goer and a "member of the general public", I don't recall being asked by the BHA my views on the use of the whip and I don't know anyone either a racing supporter or otherwise who has been asked. So who did the BHA ask ????? Animal Rights ?
I while I think WHW do a great job, for Roly Owers to say on the Morning Line on Sat that racing is the only sport that uses the whip is utter nonsense. Er, showjumping, dressage, eventing, driving ???? Not to mention spurs, horrendous bits - polo and SJ especially. Come on Mr Owers, don't pick on racing because its the biggest equine spectator sport, open your eyes.
If these people are so concerned about horse welfare, maybe they would be better spending their time & money making sure the general public know about the horrendous conditions horses suffer on their way to slaughter on the continent. The horse world knows about it, but hardly anyone else does. I would suggest that is a far more important issue that so called use of the whip.
Stupid rules and we are potentially being robbed of seeing some of the best jockeys in the world riding here because they can't risk the penalties. And I think the jockeys are being quite reasonable. If this happened in your work place and new rules and penalties were brought in with little or no proper consultation and no bedding in period and therefore your livelihood was severely compromised, would you take it ? Really ? I doubt it. Imagine this in the public sector. The bl**dy unions would have field day.
As a member of the general public, I'm all for writing to the BHA to tell them what a bunch of fools they are. Paul Roy - expect my letter soon !!!
As a race goer and a "member of the general public", I don't recall being asked by the BHA my views on the use of the whip and I don't know anyone either a racing supporter or otherwise who has been asked. So who did the BHA ask ????? Animal Rights ?
I while I think WHW do a great job, for Roly Owers to say on the Morning Line on Sat that racing is the only sport that uses the whip is utter nonsense. Er, showjumping, dressage, eventing, driving ???? Not to mention spurs, horrendous bits - polo and SJ especially. Come on Mr Owers, don't pick on racing because its the biggest equine spectator sport, open your eyes.
If these people are so concerned about horse welfare, maybe they would be better spending their time & money making sure the general public know about the horrendous conditions horses suffer on their way to slaughter on the continent. The horse world knows about it, but hardly anyone else does. I would suggest that is a far more important issue that so called use of the whip.
Stupid rules and we are potentially being robbed of seeing some of the best jockeys in the world riding here because they can't risk the penalties. And I think the jockeys are being quite reasonable. If this happened in your work place and new rules and penalties were brought in with little or no proper consultation and no bedding in period and therefore your livelihood was severely compromised, would you take it ? Really ? I doubt it. Imagine this in the public sector. The bl**dy unions would have field day.
As a member of the general public, I'm all for writing to the BHA to tell them what a bunch of fools they are. Paul Roy - expect my letter soon !!!