Whip rules - how ridiculous we appear to the ROTW ......

[fburton]

Yes Fburton I think you should give Ruby a call. I'm sure he'd delighted to hear your point of view!!

Hmm, so you think I'd just get abuse if I were to approach him? Great! Actually, I'm more interested in finding answers which I don't seem to be able to do here (for some reason), than putting any point of view. FWIW, I think the new rules are arbitrary and unhelpful - as I have said before.

 

[Fantasy_World]

"I don't buy your argument - sorry. It would be a level playing field, but one that favours different types of horses. Precisely the same number of horses would win under different rules, just not all the same horses! It would mean the genuine types would stand a better chance, and the 'lazy' ones would be penalized relatively speaking."


It was a level playing field before these new whip rules were introduced as every jockey in the UK could us a whip in order to correct, steer and gain the best possible effort from the horse.
Now there is not a level playing field as some horses are more LAZY than others.
Would Wichita Lineman for example won at the Cheltenham festival under the new rules?
I cannot think of others that spring to mind straightaway as I would have to plough through and watch the hundreds of videos of racing that I have. At least 17 years worth! That is how committed I am to the sport.
What this new rule does is penalise the owners and trainers of the lazy horses as you call it. Whereas before they were able to compete on a level basis with other runners now they cannot. So how is that fair you tell me?
In time under these rules we will lose the true staying chaser. 8 hits of a whip under NH rules is a joke in races of 2m4f plus and especially in races exceeding 3 miles like many of the Nationals. Especially as the stewards seem to be counting a corrective mini slap down the shoulder as a strike.
The reason why it would be a sad loss to racing if we lost these true stalwarts of racing is because the overall breeding of the racing TB will change. It has already changed over jumps and not necessarily the better as we have lost some of the great NH sires in recent times and more owners have wanted to see faster ‘flat’ bred types over the jumps.
All this rule will do in my opinion is speed that transition along. True whilst we have seen some fantastic ex flat racers over jumps, overall many don’t seem to stand up to the rigors of the jumping game season after season. That is why a great many people love the jumps game because they get the chance to see their favourites year in year out, not just handicappers but graded hurdle and chase winners too. For example Kauto Star, Denman, Monets Garden ( retired now, but was as good as ever last season. The gallant Istabraq that won the Champion Hurdle 3 times. Best Mate winner of the Gold Cup three times. The list is endless of good NH horses that go on and on.
Racegoers also get to see a horse progress from a hurdler to a cracking chaser. On the flat it is mainly about the breeding game and geared towards retirement at the 3 year old stage. Races like the Guineas and Derby and Oaks being prized among breeders. A few, especially the likes of milers and sprinters will stay in training for perhaps one or two seasons more. Any longer than that and you are mainly looking at handicappers which do the rounds around the gaff tracks before adding to their tally when their trainer has done enough to convince the handicapper to give some respite.
A lot of the speedier types over jumps seem to favour fast ground and if more owners and trainers encourage this particular ‘type’ of TB over jumps through the breeding of these ‘flat’ types then will it lead to the demise of ‘winter’ ground jump fields?


"How is the fate of the horses that don't win under current rules different from the fate of the horses that wouldn't win under no-whip-for-acceleration rules?"


Speaking figuratively their fate would still be the same, either down in grade, off eventing, ROR, a hack, field ornament, pts or horse meat. However under the new rules there would be simply more of these horses ending up as one of the above. If a horse’s chance of winning is marginally now decreased and the owner is paying the bills and yet the horse is not now even being placed for example then what would you do as that owner? Would you still keep running the horse at a complete loss. As the trainer would you still want to train the horse if it was now a no hoper, statistics do matter to these people. More winners at a yard = more owners. As a jockey would you still ride the horse when you could ride a horse with a better chance although that now means that you may be competing with a really TOP jockey to get that ride.
So essentially these lazy horses that would otherwise be winning and now are not are of no use to anyone except perhaps the fresh apprentice to racing who needs to get a sweat on trying to push and kick on with all their might and still have nothing to show for it. Whoops I forgot they still get their riding fee
The trainers no longer want them as they are bad for business.
The jockeys don’t want to ride them.
The owner can’t afford to keep running a horse in which its only chance of some prize money now rests on non runners, fallers or horses being pulled up.
There will be a decrease in the number of sellers/claimers and low grade handicaps due to insufficient fields because either A) trainer or owner don’t think it will win so won’t enter horse B) more horses of this type gradually ending up in the human or pet food chain.
For some owners a claimer is their Derby. So that lazy brute that needs a few reminders as it takes the p*** a little will now be a non runner and most likely end up at the sales or worse.
Let’s not forget that these low grade races have their place in racing. It allows the lesser horses a chance to win. It also means that horses can get passed on to new owners. Good horses sometimes come from these races, remember Make a Stand? Where did Martin Pipe get his Champion Hurdle winner from?


"All the arguments about owners and breeders are not interested in being second etc. would still apply, surely?"


Yes they would still apply however this new rule will influence breeders and what they either buy to add to their stock or what horses they now breed in the future.
If they have horses that need the whip for assistance either because they are very green or else not putting it all in then there will be more emphasis on youngsters that are more precocious and horses which are either not lazy or staying types.
In my opinion just because a horse needs the assistance from a whip to win it does not make it any less of a horse than one which does not, in terms of ability or otherwise.
If owners decide to move away from stamina influences and concentrate on speed then it will be the death knoll for staying types on both codes. As an owner are they more likely to want a horse that goes an end to end gallop to score or one which needs to be stoked up and given reminders to win?


"why this would be a bad thing for racing overall?"


If racing is not careful it will end up a mere ‘living’ re enactment of those horrid virtual races seen across bookmaker shops.
You asked me a question and I have answered it. I do not want to see my beloved sport in tatters and neither do I want to see an increase in TB’s leaving racing to face an uncertain future or the meatman. With the introduction of the new rules this is exactly what I predict and that makes me both sad and mad. Amongst other issues the BHA should be doing more investigation into the over breeding of TB’S in the industry, the practice and rigors of training. More responsibility for owners to take proper care of their charges after racing and not discard at will. Leave racing to those that love the sport and quickly change the totally unworkable new whip policy.


"Did racing die in Norway where there was a whip ban? If not, how exactly does the situation differ between Norway and UK?"


No the racing did not die in Norway but no disrespect to the Norwegians but the racing here in the UK is of a much higher class and incorporates racegoers and fans in their droves from across the globe.
In the UK we are talking about a much bigger industry than in Norway that is how it differs.


"Are you talking about a death in the sense of racing being catastrophically reduced in terms of activity, or in the minds of traditionalists who have a fixed idea of 'how things should be'?"


Both actually, activity will be reduced ( have already discussed this further up) and without tradition what would any sport be? All sports have their own traditions and as racegoers and fans we should try to uphold these traditions if they are in the best interest of racing.
The new whip rules were brought about for the wrong reasons. There should be no knee jerk reactions or pandering to animal rights people. These whips do not hurt the horses. There was never a welfare issue at stake, it was all a matter of perception and the interpretation of events and whip use by often misguided individuals.
Go out and buy or borrow one of these whips yourself. Smack yourself and see how it feels. I have one of these and have happily smacked myself with it. Why? To prove a point that it does not hurt ( unlike conventional whips). My horse does not object either and neither has it marked him, but a conventional whip has. Then go and smack yourself with a conventional whip and observe the reaction.

 

[Caledonia]

Hmm, so you think I'd just get abuse if I were to approach him? Great! Actually, I'm more interested in finding answers which I don't seem to be able to do here (for some reason), than putting any point of view. FWIW, I think the new rules are arbitrary and unhelpful - as I have said before.

No, I'd suggest emailing him to ask his views. I didn't for a moment suggest you phoned. Common courtesy would dictate a polite approach.

 

[fburton]

No, I'd suggest emailing him to ask his views. I didn't for a moment suggest you phoned. Common courtesy would dictate a polite approach.

Of course - I didn't for a moment think of phoning, tbh. Emailing or even *gasp* good old fashioned letter writing (yes, I still do that occasionally!).

 

[Caledonia]

Of course - I didn't for a moment think of phoning, tbh. Emailing or even *gasp* good old fashioned letter writing (yes, I still do that occasionally!).

I think an email might be better, jockeys are rarely home!

 

[fburton]

I think an email might be better, jockeys are rarely home!

And would likely consider most things arriving in envelopes to be bad news (e.g. bills)...

 

[Fantasy_World]

TBH I think if you are trying to contact a jockey the best way would be via their agent or valet. I used to know one of McCoy's valets but I have never met any of Ruby's that I know of. Most are usually quite approachable and if you frequent any racecourses then you can contact them around the weighing room, usually best before racing commences.

 

[fburton]

Fantasy_World, I appreciate the effort you've put into replying and you have given me a lot to think about. I will try and get to grips with what you have written. You should have been a consultant for the BHA's Responsible Regulation report - seriously! (Btw, your mention of videos rang a bell with me as I recorded dozens of tapes of all the major races over the few years when I was more "into" racing, but they were V2000 tapes, before VHS became standard - I think they're still in a box in the attic.) Anyway, thanks for your detailed reply. The only thing I will say at this point regarding the new whips is that I would certainly like to see for myself how mild they are compared to conventional whips. I am prepared to discover they really do cause no pain - although that would still leave the burning (for me) question of how then their use could be considered excessive by any reasonable person, which has led us to where we are now. Why put a limit on mere "encouragement" in the the first place??

 

[Caledonia]

I am prepared to discover they really do cause no pain - although that would still leave the burning (for me) question of how then their use could be considered excessive by any reasonable person, which has led us to where we are now. Why put a limit on mere "encouragement" in the the first place??

Ok - on a slight tangent - a trainer teaching piaffe from the ground uses a whip on the lower limb to encourage the horse to step more. It's not painful per se, but the horse responds. If used correctly there is no issue. If used excessively and too frequently there is.

A schooling whip helps teach a horse to move away from the leg, but using it every stride would be excessive and confusing for the horse.

Spurs used correctly are not wrong, spurs used excessively are.

None of the above three cause pain, unless abused.

 

[Allover]

Ok - on a slight tangent - a trainer teaching piaffe from the ground uses a whip on the lower limb to encourage the horse to step more. It's not painful per se, but the horse responds. If used correctly there is no issue. If used excessively and too frequently there is.

A schooling whip helps teach a horse to move away from the leg, but using it every stride would be excessive and confusing for the horse.

Spurs used correctly are not wrong, spurs used excessively are.

None of the above three cause pain, unless abused.

But surely this is the point of reducing the number of times the horse can be "encouraged" along. When you have situations where the Jockey is whipping the horse home (i know the whips are padded etc but it does have the effect of pushing the horse beyond its physical limits) surely it is better for the animal (and the not so experienced race watcher) to have limits set in place that all are aware of?

 

[Caledonia]

But surely this is the point of reducing the number of times the horse can be "encouraged" along. When you have situations where the Jockey is whipping the horse home (i know the whips are padded etc but it does have the effect of pushing the horse beyond its physical limits) surely it is better for the animal (and the not so experienced race watcher) to have limits set in place that all are aware of?

Indeed - but the sensible limit, IMHO, is already reached. And the punishment for one strike over, is ridiculous, and not welfare.

 

[Mithras]

For those of you talking about China's welfare rights -

Did you actually read the article, or did you not get past the words in the paper title?

The whole point is that the whip ban furore is NOT about welfare or animals being compromised, it's about the ridiculousness of the penalties and the way they have been applied.

An example of how the whip rules stand at the moment - if Ruby Walsh has an extra strike of his whip in the heat of the moment, he's going to lose work for another ten days. So for two extra taps with a whip - and that is what they are now, he cannot work for more than half a month?

Regardless of your opinion on the whip, this is about ridiculous penalties.

Yes but the UK is now such an urban society, full of people who in the main have no idea how to handle an animal. That doesn't stop them trying to impose their views on animal handling on those who work with them, its probably down to some kind of guilt based on living entirely artificial lives, so they think by imposing their fluffy bunny rabbit ideas on those who deal with animals on a day to day basis excuses their own lack of knowledge.

The merits of the debates and its actual consequences are secondary to the vast majority of the British public, living in their little concrete boxes in urban housing estates.

 

[Allover]

Yes but the UK is now such an urban society, full of people who in the main have no idea how to handle an animal. That doesn't stop them trying to impose their views on animal handling on those who work with them, its probably down to some kind of guilt based on living entirely artificial lives, so they think by imposing their fluffy bunny rabbit ideas on those who deal with animals on a day to day basis excuses their own lack of knowledge.

The merits of the debates and its actual consequences are secondary to the vast majority of the British public, living in their little concrete boxes in urban housing estates.

Funny you should say that but i have spoken to a few people who have been heavily involved in racing circles at points in their lives and they all agree that the new whip rules are a good thing for racing. These are not people who live in "urban society" and are "guilt ridden" from leading entirely "artificial lives", plus they are bloody good horse people, have been for years and i hope will be for years to come.

 

[Allover]

Indeed - but the sensible limit, IMHO, is already reached. And the punishment for one strike over, is ridiculous, and not welfare.

Ah so it is the punishment for overuse that there is a problem with and not the fact that the stike limits have been reduced.

 

[fburton]

Are "normal" i.e. non-padded whips allowed in training? Presumably they are because it would be impossible to enforce otherwise. Assuming they are allowed, how common is it for them to be used? Thanks.

 

[Little Squirrel]

Are "normal" i.e. non-padded whips allowed in training? Presumably they are because it would be impossible to enforce otherwise. Assuming they are allowed, how common is it for them to be used? Thanks.

Normal whips are allowed but to be honest I dont know many people who carry one. If you think that racehorses are galloped every day flat out and being whipped to make them go faster may I stongly suggest that you go to a racing yard to see what actually goes on.

 

[Elf On A Shelf]

Are "normal" i.e. non-padded whips allowed in training? Presumably they are because it would be impossible to enforce otherwise. Assuming they are allowed, how common is it for them to be used? Thanks.

We have 2 or 3 normal whips in the yard. They get carried when the horses are out on the schooling grouds - to throw for, or at, the dogs when they get under the horses feet! They have never been used on a horse. We have 5 padded race whips in the yard which the young jockeys MUST carry at all times but not use so that holding the reins, galloping and jumping whilst carrying one becomes second nature to them so they won't get confuddled in a race.

The sticks are only ever used when schooling, and even then always carried, rarely used, and on nappy horses where they get one or cracks when they nap and that usually sends them forwards. If the smakcs fail then we just pile in, blockade the horse in the centre of a mob and basically carry it along with the rest of the string where there are no escapse routes.

We don't use them for actually galloping - why sensitize a horse to something that may help it win a race? It's the same as with riding a lazy horse - you don't want to be forever kicking it along as it will become dead to the leg. We don't use the sticks so they don't become dead to them. Plus we rarely need to.

 

[fburton]

EKW - That's good to know, thanks. I had wondered if off-course use of normal whips played any role at all in determining horses' response in a race to the padded whip.

Slowly piecing together a coherent picture, not there yet...

 

[Rose Folly]

I know a horse not a hundred yards from here who is no longer racing, thank god, because, in his last trainer's own words "he'd lost the heart for racing and being flogged to the line". I know where I stand!

 

[AmyMay]

I know a horse not a hundred yards from here who is no longer racing, thank god, because, in his last trainer's own words "he'd lost the heart for racing and being flogged to the line". I know where I stand!

And that is my issue with over use of the whip. The horse is giving its all - it doesn't need to be beaten to give more.

 

[fburton]

And that is my issue with over use of the whip. The horse is giving its all - it doesn't need to be beaten to give more.

I think the point is that some horses don't give their all. It is those that need to be beaten - oops, sorry - encouraged. Unless you don't accept that the "lazy" ones deserve to win too if they are athletically capable, selective whipping plays an essential role in racing.

 

[MagicMelon]

but I see the new rules on the use of whips as good for the sport......

Me too. Definately heading in the right direction IMO.