Whip use - thoughts please!

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Nagling

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I've been thinking a lot about whips today after hearing about the debate on radio 2. I don't know the ins and outs of this debate but from what I understand they are trying to lower the number of times a jockey is allowed to hit a horse during a race. I know this is being discussed from a racing point of view but it got me thinking about whip usage in other disiplines.

I always hack out carrying a stick. I have one who can get a bit over excited and a tap on the shoulder stops her immediatly and I have another who freaks out at scary stuff and sometimes more leg isn't enough (don't mean kicking) so a tickle with a schooling whip helps her go forward. The others I ride never need any artificial aid but I still carry a stick for emergencies.

I hate to see riders at competitions who take their anger/frustration out on their horse and I really don't like to see really young riders carrying whips/spurs without really knowing how to use them correctly.

The debate touched on complete banning of whips. I know this is just speculation but I'm just interested to know how you would feel if this ever happened? Would it affect the way you ride?

I have mixed feelings on the subject really. I quite like to have the extra back up if necessary but I hate to see them misused. I do think competitions need to get a lot tougher on eliminating riders for misuse of whip and spurs though.

I'm really interested to see how others feel about this :)
 
i also don't like to see whips being misued but i do think that they are often extremely useful- especially when (for example) going XC and you might need to give your horse a smack to wake him up- meaning that you meet the next fence correctly and don't get splattered all over the place! i don't think they could ever be totally banned- it would be a safety issue surely?
 
I carry a whip jumping as my young pony tends to run out but if I place it against his shoulder he jumps perfect. I wouldn't use it though or i'd end up on the floor. The only time I have used a stick is to tickle his heels to make him move forward when he went through his feet planting stage. I think whips, like everything have their place in the right hands and in moderation.
 
The riders who use their whip in anger will simply do something else in anger if the whip is banned.

It's also a safety thing- there are times when the horse simply has to do what s/he's asked. A smack with a whip can make all the difference.
 
I see whips being used wrongly all the time, especially spoiled brat teenagers that get very angry when things don't go their way. I suggest a suitable punishment is equal amount of whipping on the rider as used on the horse ! :rolleyes:

It's a shame these people give whips a bad name because in the correct hands can be a very useful aid and help the horses understand what you asking more clearly.
 
i totaly agree with using whips as alot of yound horses need a flick every now nd agen to make them go forward, i break and school horses and without a schooling whip i would be crippled every day i went home. using a whip incorrectly or not understanding the proper meaning of a flick can spoil any horse.
 
Dutch1horse said:
I see whips being used wrongly all the time, especially spoiled brat teenagers that get very angry when things don't go their way. I suggest a suitable punishment is equal amount of whipping on the rider as used on the horse ! :rolleyes:
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I have seen a mother drag her child off a pony and give her a hefty smack with the whip after she had smacked the pony round a course of jumps!!:eek:
 
mr fields said:
i totaly agree with using whips as alot of yound horses need a flick every now nd agen to make them go forward, i break and school horses and without a schooling whip i would be crippled every day i went home. using a whip incorrectly or not understanding the proper meaning of a flick can spoil any horse.
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Very true.

A whip used in anger is wrong, but used intelligently, it causes less grief for the horse and can keep horse and rider safe.

Whips are fine.
Whips in the hands of idiots are harmful. Take the whip out of the idiot's hand and the problem is solved.
 
Agree with horserider; but I see this situation the same as the abuse of strong bits and riders 'booting' their horses / ponies with spurs on.
I think younger / inexperienced need to be educated that a whip is to be used as a training aid and not for use as punishment when things don't happen as expected.
 
I have seen a very high up bhs instructor lay into a horse with a whip when she thought nobody was looking.

Watch jockeys ride and you will see how much they kick the horses never mind whip them.
 
In the right hands, a whip is a very useful tool. I often find that even carrying one can make a difference to how forward the horse is. I don't remember the last time I 'smacked' a horse with one though!

However in the wrong hands, I agree that their use is dodgy. They are not a tool for punishment. Last week I saw a kid riding a pony she was much too big for leg-wise (she was a skinny thing so not a problem weightwise). The pony was quite nappy and, without hesitation, the kid lifted her whip and smacked her maybe 10, 15 times in quick succession, on several occasions. The mare was a stubborn little thing and refused to go forward. From the look of her she had foaled recently-ish and I couldn't help but wonder if this might explain her behaviour?
 
I carry a schooling whip when riding Kal on the flat as a back up to my legs. He responds more to the movement of the whip when I flick it than to it actually touching his side (and I'm not convinced that it does actually touch him). Personally, I'd rather give him a flick with the whip to reinforce a leg aid he's not quite listening to than be constantly nagging him with my lower leg causing him to either lean on my leg or become dead to it - or both.

My trainer rides him in spurs - which he respects - but my lower leg isn't quite still enough - hence the whip.

Over fences, though, no whip required - he loves jumping and doesn't really require reminding to bounce off the leg when in a field full of fences ;).

I'm rambling, but I think what I'm trying to say is that I'd rather see a whip correctly used as another aid (like hands, legs, seat, body) than to see riders flapping and/or kicking. I do, though, object violently to whips being used in anger or as a form of punishment. Totally counterproductive IMHO.

P
 
As long as humans think it's ok to hit a horse (or any animal) to make it 'do' something, whips will be used and justified in various ways, it just depends where you sit on that continuum as to what is acceptable.
 
I hate whips full stop , but there is a place for them ie encouraging a horse forward , I hate it when I see horses beaten , I can't carry a whip of any kind because my mare must of been beaten with one before I got her she is petrified of them to a point she will either run sidewards or she will bolt
My friend also got hurt the other day down to the fact she was having a lesson on a mare who also had been beaten my friend was handed a crop and the horse bolt resulting my friend coming to meet the floor
I think they really need to consider the use of crops in other equine events etc not just racing
 
amandap said:
As long as humans think it's ok to hit a horse (or any animal) to make it 'do' something, whips will be used and justified in various ways, it just depends where you sit on that continuum as to what is acceptable.
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I don't think anyone here is condoning beating a horse with a whip. A whip has different uses, it reaches the parts that the leg can't. In a moment of spilt second danger it can steer the hind quarters or shoulder out of harms way. Jumping a 5' spread it can push the horse forward and up, rather than risk a tangled wreck.
The whip used intelligently is an instant correction or instruction, over and done with. There is not the long dragged out stress caused by repeatedly flicking a lead rope or carrot stick in a horses face, which I feel is far more abusive.
Horses by nature are willing and compliant, but some days they just don't want to give their all and that's when the trainer says, 'ok, I understand, but life's tough, get the job done'.
 
A hard tap behind the leg when a horse was backing into a ditch (didn't want to walk from a sunny area into a shady area and had been spooked by some loose horses charging around an adjacent field) and ignoring my legs got us moving forwards again - if I hadn't had one, we would have ended up in said ditch, which would have been less than ideal. It was one of the times when I really couldn't negotiate too much as we were in a dangerous situation. So they can be very useful, and I'd almost always hack out with one in my boot just in case (the exception would be if I was asked not to - don't have my own horse, so always ride other peoples and listen to their wishes).

I think riding schools have a responsibility on this one, my first riding school did not teach proper whip use and as a result I have misused them in the past - I've never beaten a horse, you understand, but I have been too hasty to resort to a smack. I know better now, but it would have been good to have been taught a better way from the start.
 
I always carry a dressage whip when I hack out for 2 reasons 1) I carry it in my right hand and it encourages the drivers to move over a bit more when they pass us, 2) It's really handy in the summer for waving around her faceand head and getting rid of the flies (obviously she's very frightened of the whip).
I have also used it in the past in the school as a training aid, a tap on the bum to move the quarters, or on the shoulder to move the shoulders over, but never more than a tap (even after 18 years I'm not that brave!!!)
 
God help us if the fluffies ever ban the use of whips totally!

The one good example I would use is my old ID 16hh mare who was half donkey I am sure. She would nap really violently and very dangerously (rear, plunge, spin) but one good crack on the arse would stop her misbehaving immediately!
 
I don't carry one when schooling except on other peoples horses if they choose, as Dante doesn't like them. I insist on carrying one (usually) on hacks though, for the same reasons as Spudlet. Used correctly, they certainly have their place - lunging & in-hand work for example, although I'm sure there are many fantastic trainers, or wonderful horses that are perfect without, a whip used simply to give direction (as an extension of the arm) can be helpful to both trainer AND horse - a confused horse can't be a happy one surely? It doesn't even need to make contact with the horse.
I certainly agree that there are moments where the whip can just give that little extra reminder that makes the difference between being ok or ending up in a lovely heap of horse & rider which certainly doesn't benefit anyone.
 
horserider said:
I don't think anyone here is condoning beating a horse with a whip.
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That isn't what I said or intended to say. I'm talking about the mindset of it's ok to hit/strike/hurt horses. If we think it's ok to hit them even to 'keep safe', then perhaps we should be looking at what we are asking them? We are consenting, they are usually willing partners, is it right to 'remind them' with a whip when they say... "erm hang on a minute" when they are so willing?

Of course whips can be used as arm extensions and for indicating etc. but what is the most common way we see whips used? What do we grow up seeing?
Of course Parelli and all NH is crap and abuse to many, it may well be to all one day but it isn't in our living rooms every day on the TV is it? I don't think Parelli is against hitting anyway.

No way am I saying whips shouldn't be used, I'm just questioning the pervasive use of hitting in our collective psyche or culture. Or rather in my obviously limited view that's what I think I'm doing.
 
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Horses can be conditioned to instant forward movement without whips. It takes longer, requires a bit of lateral thinking, good timing and empathy, all commodities in short supply, hence the popularity of the whip. 'nough said, I am going to become highly unpopular if I go on. Just one of my pet hates (and, yes, I used to carry one, we were all trained to do so).
 
It's the same with any other piece of equipment. If used wrong, then it can be a disaster. Like if a saddle is the wrong size, it's going to do more bad than good, or even boots/bandages if they are too tight they can cause problems.
You need to learn how to use these things, not just thrown into the deep end.
The first time I sat on a horse was at my friend's yard. Before I even got on she explained what the bit was, and what it did, and if I had busy or strong hands then it can be more detrimental than beneficial.
The worst thing is, is when people know the effects and still misuse the item.
 
Well I'm all for don't use it unless you really need to of course, nothing annoys me more people setting about there horses with a whip out of anger/emabarrasment or without giving the horse clear aids first etc

But if used for the right reasons with a cool head, end of the day we are talking about half ton of animal here that at times may just prefer to do as they wish rather than there told or will put themselves into a dangerous situation (on roads for example) and as much as we'd like in an ideal world, they just aint always going to comply to some petite 8st person on board giving them a kick along if it's a great big powerful horse with a strong mind and body.

I always carry a schooling whip, just incase, besides you never know you might need it for other reasons (dog attack, or some weirdo that may attempt to drag you off your horse) it's certainly not there to beat my horse up with, but if he decided to start reversing frantically into something very dangerous then hell yes he's going to feel the sharp end of it to send him forwards and prevent him from getting injured.

...and no I'm not a horse beater, just saying that it's safer to have one with you that's all, doesn't mean you have to use it.:)
 
amandap said:
That isn't what I said or intended to say. I'm talking about the mindset of it's ok to hit/strike/hurt horses. If we think it's ok to hit them even to 'keep safe', then perhaps we should be looking at what we are asking them? We are consenting, they are usually willing partners, is it right to 'remind them' with a whip when they say... "erm hang on a minute" when they are so willing?

Of course whips can be used as arm extensions and for indicating etc. but what is the most common way we see whips used? What do we grow up seeing?
Of course Parelli and all NH is crap and abuse to many, it may well be to all one day but it isn't in our living rooms every day on the TV is it? I don't think Parelli is against hitting anyway.

No way am I saying whips shouldn't be used, I'm just questioning the pervasive use of hitting in our collective psyche or culture. Or rather in my obviously limited view that's what I think I'm doing.
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What would you do if your horse was backing up towards something dangerous, and wasn't listening to your leg aids? (And please don't say your horses are so well trained that it'd never happen. ;) )
 
I carry a whip, and have to use it as an aid because I do not have a right leg, but saying this I just press it against my girls shoulder to back up my aids. I hate like every one has said to see people taking out their temper or frustrations on the poor horse its just not fair.
 
amandap said:
That isn't what I said or intended to say. I'm talking about the mindset of it's ok to hit/strike/hurt horses. If we think it's ok to hit them even to 'keep safe', then perhaps we should be looking at what we are asking them? We are consenting, they are usually willing partners, is it right to 'remind them' with a whip when they say... "erm hang on a minute" when they are so willing?

Of course whips can be used as arm extensions and for indicating etc. but what is the most common way we see whips used? What do we grow up seeing?
Of course Parelli and all NH is crap and abuse to many, it may well be to all one day but it isn't in our living rooms every day on the TV is it? I don't think Parelli is against hitting anyway.

No way am I saying whips shouldn't be used, I'm just questioning the pervasive use of hitting in our collective psyche or culture. Or rather in my obviously limited view that's what I think I'm doing.
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is this a serious post? honestly... yes in an ideal world one's horse would be so responsive that it would always move off the leg- but if something spooks them (and ANY horse can be spooked- no matter how 'bombproof') then that responsiveness can be lost and using a whip can be a way of regaining that concentration/attention- a bit like clicking your fingers in front of someone who is daydreaming for example.... and yes it is right to 'remind them' when they say 'erm...no i don't want to do that' if the alternative is putting yourself and horse in danger- as spudlet said re. the ditch example above- much 'kinder' to avoid a fall into a ditch surely?? a horse weighs a heck of a lot and you just can't have a situation where they are dictating what is happening- it doesn't mean you are being cruel- its blimmin common sense! :confused:
 
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