Whipping race horses - Doesn't make them go faster
- Thread starter winterwood
- Start date
vieshot
Well-Known Member
Pssshhhhh....whatever!
Elbie
Well-Known Member
Ok, so I just skim-read that but is it just me or did they not actually mention how they figured this out? What did they study? How did they study it? What were the numerical results?
Without basic facts its all rubbish.
Without basic facts its all rubbish.
winterwood
Well-Known Member
Sounds like common sense to me.
Hitting a horse at the end of a race when it's knackered isn't going to make it run faster, is it???
Hitting a horse at the end of a race when it's knackered isn't going to make it run faster, is it???
Stacey02
Active Member
I do remember watching a race where the jocky dropped his whip and the horse did win the race! not saying he came from last position and finished first but he wasnt first when he dropped the whip. Goes to show theyll do it if they want to.
winterwood
Well-Known Member
If there were no whips allowed, then it would be a level playing field anyway.
Bug2007
Well-Known Member
Didn't work on my filly, we have watched her races and when she started to slow, the jockey hit her all it did was make her back off even more. last race he hit her she stopped, they all thought she had broken down.
Good to watch and see this as it shows what kind of horse she is. Not one to be pressured into doing something.
Good to watch and see this as it shows what kind of horse she is. Not one to be pressured into doing something.
Jenni_
Well-Known Member
whipping horses doesn't make them go 'faster'
it derives from the horses 'flight or fight' instinct - say a predator in the wild jumping on the back on the horse whilst in chase.
so the survival iinstinct kicks in- the reaction from this is for the body to release more adrenalin, which results in increased stamina and speed.
so even if it doesnt make them go 'faster' it will allow them to maintain an optimum speed over a longer distance....
it derives from the horses 'flight or fight' instinct - say a predator in the wild jumping on the back on the horse whilst in chase.
so the survival iinstinct kicks in- the reaction from this is for the body to release more adrenalin, which results in increased stamina and speed.
so even if it doesnt make them go 'faster' it will allow them to maintain an optimum speed over a longer distance....
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
poor old racing industry getting in the neck again, does noone realise that jockeys are penalised for over use of the whip, they may APPEAR to be whipping but this is not the case most of the time.
AmyMay
Situation normal
Time to kick the old whip in to touch I say.
Can't abide to see them beaten across the line.
Can't abide to see them beaten across the line.
intouch
Well-Known Member
I know that, but I can't help thinking that if they sat still instead of bouncing off the horse's loins, it would make it easier for the horse to go faster. I agree with winterwood, no whips at all would make racing much more acceptable to watch - and I do love watching it!
If anyone was seen hitting a dog like jockeys hit horses, it would be a different story.
MosMum
Well-Known Member
Interesting topic, I'm not much of a runner but if I had risk of pain following close behind I'd run a fair bit further and faster!
intouch, to be fair, most dogs don't weigh 800lbs + so hitting them with the same strength and force as hitting a horse would be inappropriate to say the least....
I'm undecided about racing altogther, but am saddened to see the kind of injuries which can be incurred via this sport and the fact that the majority of its 'leftovers' both by overbreeding and very early retirement of its players, don't get the treatment they deserve.
intouch, to be fair, most dogs don't weigh 800lbs + so hitting them with the same strength and force as hitting a horse would be inappropriate to say the least....
I'm undecided about racing altogther, but am saddened to see the kind of injuries which can be incurred via this sport and the fact that the majority of its 'leftovers' both by overbreeding and very early retirement of its players, don't get the treatment they deserve.
AmyMay
Situation normal
I completely agree.
intouch
Well-Known Member
[QUOTEintouch, to be fair, most dogs don't weigh 800lbs + so hitting them with the same strength and force as hitting a horse would be inappropriate to say the least....
QUOTE]
So it's OK to hit a dog with a little less force then???
QUOTE]
So it's OK to hit a dog with a little less force then???
ThePony
Well-Known Member
So if whips weren't allowed it would be a level playing field - they are allowed and everyone can carry one - surely that is still a level playing field?!
Have you hit yourself with a race legal whip - it absolutly doesn't hurt (not even in the same league as the sting from a dressage whip!).
I agree it isn't pleasant to watch jockeys bouncing up and down, but the good, steady and well balanced jockeys that get results by riding in a manner that suits the horse do often get the best results. Not simply a case of sitting there and walloping the horse to make it go on. I must admit though, when you see a horse that has run it's heart out and is just fading as it has already given it's all, getting whipped towards the finish - your heart really does go out to the poor soul. I would be suprised if the jockey could allow the horse to finish steadily though and keep the ride - winning is all (I'm not saying it is always comfortable to watch, but that is the nature of the sport).
If a jockey rode in a race and didn't touch the horse once then I would imagine there would be a big to-do as it would be viewed that he didn't ride to the best of his ability to win, big no no!
It is in the owners, trainers and jockeys best interests to win (when all is above board!) so they really aren't going to be stupid enough to ride the horse in such a way that it backs off.
Sometimes if a horses regular jockey is bumped off the ride (perhaps due to an injury or ban) you can really see if the new jockey is riding the horse in a way that suits it. Some very clearly don't, perhaps because they haven't had enough time to work with the horse or perhaps they are a 'one way only' type rider, and it is telling as a well horse with a good rating will for no apparent reason runs like a drain - the only change seeming to be the jockey. (not saying that is always the case, but if you watch a horse you know, you can see it getting it's feathers ruffled by a less sensitive rider and going much less well as a result).
Not really seeing how hitting a dog is relevant?!
Have you hit yourself with a race legal whip - it absolutly doesn't hurt (not even in the same league as the sting from a dressage whip!).
I agree it isn't pleasant to watch jockeys bouncing up and down, but the good, steady and well balanced jockeys that get results by riding in a manner that suits the horse do often get the best results. Not simply a case of sitting there and walloping the horse to make it go on. I must admit though, when you see a horse that has run it's heart out and is just fading as it has already given it's all, getting whipped towards the finish - your heart really does go out to the poor soul. I would be suprised if the jockey could allow the horse to finish steadily though and keep the ride - winning is all (I'm not saying it is always comfortable to watch, but that is the nature of the sport).
If a jockey rode in a race and didn't touch the horse once then I would imagine there would be a big to-do as it would be viewed that he didn't ride to the best of his ability to win, big no no!
It is in the owners, trainers and jockeys best interests to win (when all is above board!) so they really aren't going to be stupid enough to ride the horse in such a way that it backs off.
Sometimes if a horses regular jockey is bumped off the ride (perhaps due to an injury or ban) you can really see if the new jockey is riding the horse in a way that suits it. Some very clearly don't, perhaps because they haven't had enough time to work with the horse or perhaps they are a 'one way only' type rider, and it is telling as a well horse with a good rating will for no apparent reason runs like a drain - the only change seeming to be the jockey. (not saying that is always the case, but if you watch a horse you know, you can see it getting it's feathers ruffled by a less sensitive rider and going much less well as a result).
Not really seeing how hitting a dog is relevant?!
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MICHAELA8228
Well-Known Member
"So if whips weren't allowed it would be a level playing field - they are allowed and everyone can carry one - surely that is still a level playing field?!
Have you hit yourself with a race legal whip - it absolutly doesn't hurt (not even in the same league as the sting from a dressage whip!).
I agree it isn't pleasant to watch jockeys bouncing up and down, but the good, steady and well balanced jockeys that get results by riding in a manner that suits the horse do often get the best results. Not simply a case of sitting there and walloping the horse to make it go on.
If a jockey rode in a race and didn't touch the horse once then I would imagine there would be a big to-do as it would be viewed that he didn't ride to the best of his ability to win, big no no!
It is in the owners, trainers and jockeys best interests to win (when all is above board!) so they really aren't going to be stupid enough to ride the horse in such a way that it backs off.
Sometimes if a horses regular jockey is bumped off the ride (perhaps due to an injury or ban) you can really see if the new jockey is riding the horse in a way that suits it. Some very clearly don't, perhaps because they haven't had enough time to work with the horse or perhaps they are a 'one way only' type rider, and it is telling as a well horse with a good rating will for no apparent reason runs like a drain - the only change seeming to be the jockey. (not saying that is always the case, but if you watch a horse you know, you can see it getting it's feathers ruffled by a less sensitive rider and going much less well as a result).
Not really seeing how hitting a dog is relevant?! "
Spot on!!
Have you hit yourself with a race legal whip - it absolutly doesn't hurt (not even in the same league as the sting from a dressage whip!).
I agree it isn't pleasant to watch jockeys bouncing up and down, but the good, steady and well balanced jockeys that get results by riding in a manner that suits the horse do often get the best results. Not simply a case of sitting there and walloping the horse to make it go on.
If a jockey rode in a race and didn't touch the horse once then I would imagine there would be a big to-do as it would be viewed that he didn't ride to the best of his ability to win, big no no!
It is in the owners, trainers and jockeys best interests to win (when all is above board!) so they really aren't going to be stupid enough to ride the horse in such a way that it backs off.
Sometimes if a horses regular jockey is bumped off the ride (perhaps due to an injury or ban) you can really see if the new jockey is riding the horse in a way that suits it. Some very clearly don't, perhaps because they haven't had enough time to work with the horse or perhaps they are a 'one way only' type rider, and it is telling as a well horse with a good rating will for no apparent reason runs like a drain - the only change seeming to be the jockey. (not saying that is always the case, but if you watch a horse you know, you can see it getting it's feathers ruffled by a less sensitive rider and going much less well as a result).
Not really seeing how hitting a dog is relevant?! "
Spot on!!
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rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
Tell me,how many horses do you see coming in after a race with whip welts?
intouch
Well-Known Member
So it doesn't hurt. Great. Then it's not going to make a difference if they loose the whips.
rosie fronfelen
Well-Known Member
I'm not entering into any arguement- who said about hurt, having beenin racing i am onlystating an opinion.As i have stated in the past if anyone has a problem with this take it up with the jockey club.
ThePony
Well-Known Member
So shall we take the whips off all dressage riders, all sj riders etc? What is wrong with using a whip to back up a leg aid or to be an aid as and of itself? Why such a prob with it? An aid most certainly doesn't need to be painful, it is a signal!
If we have an issue with causing a horse discomfort then there are many more things to rant at first rather than the use of whips in horse racing - I'll start you off! overuse of spurs, single jointed bits with flash nosebands, heavy hands and pretty much any bit, badly fitting saddles, poor riders riding heavy on the horses back, sawing hands .......?!
If we have an issue with causing a horse discomfort then there are many more things to rant at first rather than the use of whips in horse racing - I'll start you off! overuse of spurs, single jointed bits with flash nosebands, heavy hands and pretty much any bit, badly fitting saddles, poor riders riding heavy on the horses back, sawing hands .......?!
intouch
Well-Known Member
In competition, absolutely. Training should be done at home. How often do you see a dressage rider use a whip in a competition?
Absolutely. Education is the key.
winterwood
Well-Known Member
Dead right
teagreen
Well-Known Member
The whip is mostly used for encouragement - they are simply waving it either behind the horse or near it's eye, it encourages them to go faster without touching them. Of course they do hit them, but it is so heavily regulated - only a certain number of times you can do it and God help you if a horse comes back in marked from the whip, which very very rarely happens.
If use was unregulated and the whips were like general riding crops, I'd have a problem with it. I have seen horses at local unaff events marked with the whip, at home or at many competitions the type of whip, and how often it is used, is unregulated. But racing whips are the most humane you can get and their use is strictly controlled, so I don't have a problem with their use.
What many also don't know/take into account is the safety aspects of the whip - it is used to direct the horse and as a steering tool by the jockey to keep the horse on a true line and prevent is causing potentially dangerous interference. If it was taken away, this would be affected, and if anything, my main reason for keeping the whip would be for the way it is used to keep the horse straight/stop it running out etc.
If use was unregulated and the whips were like general riding crops, I'd have a problem with it. I have seen horses at local unaff events marked with the whip, at home or at many competitions the type of whip, and how often it is used, is unregulated. But racing whips are the most humane you can get and their use is strictly controlled, so I don't have a problem with their use.
What many also don't know/take into account is the safety aspects of the whip - it is used to direct the horse and as a steering tool by the jockey to keep the horse on a true line and prevent is causing potentially dangerous interference. If it was taken away, this would be affected, and if anything, my main reason for keeping the whip would be for the way it is used to keep the horse straight/stop it running out etc.
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winterwood
Well-Known Member
At Cheltenham, the debate was rekindled with advocates of banning the whip including former champion jockey Johnnie Francome, now a racing pundit and best-selling author who probably dislikes being described as a sort of Dick Francis. Francome argued that a months trial would demonstrate that racing could be as exciting, as demanding of skill, as fast, and less stressful to the horses. He also admits that as a jockey ten years ago he would have been opposed to it, and that almost all the jockeys will go on opposing it until they tried out racing without whips. He mutters darkly about the dinosaurs in charge of the sport.
Meanwhile, at the Jurassic headquarters of horse racing, plans are being examined for whips that can not cause such evident after-effects on horses. (Pain-free whips?).
Found the above on this link http://leaderswedeserve.wordpress.com/tag/kelly-marks/
Meanwhile, at the Jurassic headquarters of horse racing, plans are being examined for whips that can not cause such evident after-effects on horses. (Pain-free whips?).
Found the above on this link http://leaderswedeserve.wordpress.com/tag/kelly-marks/
pastie2
Well-Known Member
The whip is not only used at the end of a race, it is used to keep a horse in a true line, if a horse is hanging in any direction. Modern day whips used for racing are padded and are not meant to cause any welts on the horse, if a horse comes back from a race and does have welts the jockey is haulled up to explain to the stewards. The whip is used as an encouragement not a repremand. As for the poster that said dressage whips are only used for schooling and not for competition .......... so thats okay then is it? I do know that if I had to be smacked by a race whip or a dressage whip, I know which one would hurt.
stroppy
Well-Known Member
Yes it does, That article is total trollocks!!
jinglejoys
Well-Known Member
They are started young nowadays,at YHL I saw pale pink and blue whips dressed up as fairy wands!
fburton
Well-Known Member
I agree, but I think there is also an argument for at least carrying a whip for safety purposes.
Interesting letter here, from a vet:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2657512/
minesadouble
Well-Known Member
Hitting a genuine horse who has given his all wont make him go faster, but it might make the dfference between winning and losing on a wily character who likes to keep a bit back for himself.
Secondly the point made by a few others that it can prevent an accident on a horse who is hanging badly by being an extra aid to straighten him up - especially considering where a jockey's legs sit on a horse - it's not like they can wrap their legs round them to ride them forward.
Thirdly, there are at least as many nappy racehorses as non-racehorses, it's not unusual to see a horse come right back, in some cases to TROT, as they pass the stables in the middle of a race - you definitely need a whip in this instance. We have a pony who intermittently naps when leaving the yard. A couple of well timed sharp smacks and he's fine, with no stick you'd have no chance of leaving the yard!! Once he's out the yard he's perfectly happy but if we could not carry a stick on him EVER he'd soon cotton on and I don't think the little critter would set foot off the yard again
.
Again there's as much abuse (intentional or not) in every discipline, including hacking, as there is in racing, just racing is the most publicly viewed accountable horse sport.
Secondly the point made by a few others that it can prevent an accident on a horse who is hanging badly by being an extra aid to straighten him up - especially considering where a jockey's legs sit on a horse - it's not like they can wrap their legs round them to ride them forward.
Thirdly, there are at least as many nappy racehorses as non-racehorses, it's not unusual to see a horse come right back, in some cases to TROT, as they pass the stables in the middle of a race - you definitely need a whip in this instance. We have a pony who intermittently naps when leaving the yard. A couple of well timed sharp smacks and he's fine, with no stick you'd have no chance of leaving the yard!! Once he's out the yard he's perfectly happy but if we could not carry a stick on him EVER he'd soon cotton on and I don't think the little critter would set foot off the yard again
.Again there's as much abuse (intentional or not) in every discipline, including hacking, as there is in racing, just racing is the most publicly viewed accountable horse sport.
pastie2
Well-Known Member
Hitting a genuine horse who has given his all wont make him go faster, but it might make the dfference between winning and losing on a wily character who likes to keep a bit back for himself.
Secondly the point made by a few others that it can prevent an accident on a horse who is hanging badly by being an extra aid to straighten him up - especially considering where a jockey's legs sit on a horse - it's not like they can wrap their legs round them to ride them forward.
Thirdly, there are at least as many nappy racehorses as non-racehorses, it's not unusual to see a horse come right back, in some cases to TROT, as they pass the stables in the middle of a race - you definitely need a whip in this instance. We have a pony who intermittently naps when leaving the yard. A couple of well timed sharp smacks and he's fine, with no stick you'd have no chance of leaving the yard!! Once he's out the yard he's perfectly happy but if we could not carry a stick on him EVER he'd soon cotton on and I don't think the little critter would set foot off the yard again
Again there's as much abuse (intentional or not) in every discipline, including hacking, as there is in racing, just racing is the most publicly viewed accountable horse sport.
Oh, so well said !!!!