Whipping race horses - Doesn't make them go faster

pastie2 said:
As for the poster that said dressage whips are only used for schooling and not for competition .......... so thats okay then is it? .
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This was in response to ThePony who suggested that the whip should be used as a back-up aid - I'm not a hunny bugger, I know there are times when a whip is essential, so long as it is not abusive. But not in competition.
 
intouch said:
This was in response to ThePony who suggested that the whip should be used as a back-up aid - I'm not a hunny bugger, I know there are times when a whip is essential, so long as it is not abusive. But not in competition.
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I don't see why anything acceptable at home might then not be acceptable in comps? I don't see the difference? (not being a wind up merchant, I really don't get it!).
 
intouch said:
This was in response to ThePony who suggested that the whip should be used as a back-up aid - I'm not a hunny bugger, I know there are times when a whip is essential, so long as it is not abusive. But not in competition.
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That makes no sense to me, half the time its in competition when a whip is needed more! Scary jumps that they havnt seen before that they back off of etc.
 
ThePony said:
I don't see why anything acceptable at home might then not be acceptable in comps? I don't see the difference? (not being a wind up merchant, I really don't get it!).
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Me neither, horse racing is the MOST televised horse sport. The welfare of race horses is paramount with strict rules from the Jockey Club. Racing is controlled with more rules and regulations than most equestrian sports.
 
Stacey02 said:
I do remember watching a race where the jocky dropped his whip and the horse did win the race! not saying he came from last position and finished first but he wasnt first when he dropped the whip. Goes to show theyll do it if they want to.
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Most of the time if a jockey drops his whip, he will carry on waving his arms so the horse thinks hes still got it.

After thousands of years of racing history, if the whip didnt work in one way or another, dont you think the Jockeys/Trainers would have stopped using it and found more effective means?
 
Have any of you ridden in a race without a whip and tried to keep a horse on a straight line to avoid clipping heels??? I have and its very very difficult and unsafe. Anybody anti whips in racing need to actually study the sport....I have never seen a horse come out of a race bleeding from whip marks yet I have seen horses come out of SJ, Eventing and dressage with bleeding whip and spur marks. When adrenaline is up a horse will not feel any pain yet will react positively to use of the whip. A jockey's livelihood is riding in races....if he gets banned he loses out on race rides and income so overdoing it with the stick to win races is not worth it. Majority of the time the whip is used to keep the horse on a true line, not drifting and moving forwards not sideways.
 
rosiefronfelen said:
poor old racing industry getting in the neck again,
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I'm tempted to say - better then the poor old horse getting it wherever!

However; having ridden in races at a time when horses were thrashed mercilessly because that was what was expected if you ever wanted to sit on one again - I will agree that racing has changed - but still further to go. I don't like the whip.

does noone realise that jockeys are penalised for over use of the whip, they may APPEAR to be whipping but this is not the case most of the time.
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Very true, many jockeys are good at bringing the whip through in time with the horse's movements which has almost the same effect as a swack but this could be said to be terrorising the poor thing just as much as doing it for real. I say this because we are only talking about mindgames - no human is capable of doing proper damage to a horse - they are big and very powerful animals that can soak up vast punishment if they have to - but they were also blessed with little tiny and easily frightened childlike brains. So they need looking after - not whipping real or virtual.
 
1stclassalan said:
That is an amazing piece of contradictory nonesense !

Do tell me your full history - when exactly were you beamed up by an alien spacecraft?
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I don't know what you are being so rude about but back down and don't be so ignorant. Is there even point in me explaining what I meant to you...or have you already decided I'm a cruel evil racing person
 
1stclassalan said:
I'm tempted to say - better then the poor old horse getting it wherever!

However; having ridden in races at a time when horses were thrashed mercilessly because that was what was expected if you ever wanted to sit on one again - I will agree that racing has changed - but still further to go. I don't like the whip.



Very true, many jockeys are good at bringing the whip through in time with the horse's movements which has almost the same effect as a swack but this could be said to be terrorising the poor thing just as much as doing it for real. I say this because we are only talking about mindgames - no human is capable of doing proper damage to a horse - they are big and very powerful animals that can soak up vast punishment if they have to - but they were also blessed with little tiny and easily frightened childlike brains. So they need looking after - not whipping real or virtual.
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Wow were you a jockey, amazin and in real life as well. like did you ride red rum an that wow and like with all that other stuff what youve done you've had a dead busy life with all that natural horsemanship an stuff. I bet you just like put a carrot in front of your horses nose and whispered in its ear how much you love it and it ran like the wind and won the race, amazin!

amymay said:
B******s
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Aye - that looks well crap. this one time me friend went there and someone had well sicked up a hariball on the bed, gross man. dont goe. but if you hit racehorses you deserve it! well relevant to this post lol
 
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ThePony said:
So shall we take the whips off all dressage riders, all sj riders etc? What is wrong with using a whip to back up a leg aid or to be an aid as and of itself? Why such a prob with it? An aid most certainly doesn't need to be painful, it is a signal!

If we have an issue with causing a horse discomfort then there are many more things to rant at first rather than the use of whips in horse racing - I'll start you off! overuse of spurs, single jointed bits with flash nosebands, heavy hands and pretty much any bit, badly fitting saddles, poor riders riding heavy on the horses back, sawing hands .......?!
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just what i was going to say and they (jockeys) dont have legs as ride so short so whip also does that job to ,keeping horse over. i would rather give my horse a tap with whip that sit and flap my legs kicking as hard as possible in guts which i see alot. were i work yes shock horror in racing sick lame and lazy yard we have horses with tendons broken legs broken pelvisis ect all fixed at great expence and most go on to breed or new homes when these happen in most other industries or pets they are put down its bar no means perfect but as most pple dont ride in races as a hobbie its easy to say its cruel but as most dabble in jumping dressage xc they cant pick on them as they do it themselfs
 
who will police it how and who will determine when and what is safe or not i no i use my whip only when necessary and don't beat my horse in any way so my conscience is clear and quite often tuck it in my boot but when a car comes and he spooks its there, same as if he has a strop, me politely telling a 500 kilo animal to please stop it or we going to be hit by a car does not always work its a tad unreasonable to just ban whips of any sort at any time by anyone
 
But say a horse is on the first circuit of the track and passing the stables, it decides to be a mule and try and stop. The jockey will know if giving it a couple of smacks will help or not (some horses would stop even more with the whip) - the jockey will give it a couple of slaps, and the horse could get back up and win the race.

Racehorses can be as mule-like as any horse that just needs a good smack to stop being ridiculous, so if it's ok to hit showjumpers/eventers etc etc, why not racehorses?
 
GODRULESDAWORLD said:
Wow were you a jockey, amazin and in real life as well. like did you ride red rum an that wow and like with all that other stuff what youve done you've had a dead busy life with all that natural horsemanship an stuff. I bet you just like put a carrot in front of your horses nose and whispered in its ear how much you love it and it ran like the wind and won the race, amazin!



Aye - that looks well crap. this one time me friend went there and someone had well sicked up a hariball on the bed, gross man. dont goe. but if you hit racehorses you deserve it! well relevant to this post lol
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Did you even go to school?
 
tallyho! said:
Did you even go to school?
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xD Just what I was thinking.

and as for the discussion...
They aren't going to disallow whips. As much as most of us would like it.
Personally. I think it makes good sense though there are some flaws.
Similar story is about whipping Barrel Racers. When I was BR obsessed I trained my pony (at the time a 25year old 13.2hh heinz gelding) to run barrels, though I never competed, I never had to carry a stick and coming down the home line after the last barrel he was a speed demon. I don't think hitting him would've done anything except make him buck :D

One of my lovely friends have hit me on the backside with a racing whip. Now either my butt is extremely well padded, or them sticks aren't the same as our short SJ whips...
 
teagreen said:
But say a horse is on the first circuit of the track and passing the stables, it decides to be a mule and try and stop. The jockey will know if giving it a couple of smacks will help or not (some horses would stop even more with the whip) - the jockey will give it a couple of slaps, and the horse could get back up and win the race.
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That would mean the "mules" don't win the races, while the horses who have a real liking and talent for racing will. Would that be such a bad thing?

Racehorses can be as mule-like as any horse that just needs a good smack to stop being ridiculous, so if it's ok to hit showjumpers/eventers etc etc, why not racehorses?
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The same could apply to showjumpers and eventers - the horses that perform best are those that are willing and capable. However, I can see this might be a problem if a lot of horses competing in these disciplines are "mulish". Is that really the case?

(playing "devil's advocate" here, obviously)
 
I hate seeing the whip used excessively, and I don't really like seeing it used in a finish on tired horses even though it might make the difference between winning and losing. That said, it's a really useful tool to keep horses straight, or from running out on the stable bend.
It's not possible to compare riding a horse in a race with a round of XC or SJ. There is nowhere near the same amount of obedience demanded from the horse. Whereas a horse can be kept coming to a fence in XC/SJ mostly just with the leg, it wouldn't possible to do that in a race.
By the same token, I'd rather see a whip used seamlessly under the current rules and in balance with a horse instead of the jockey kicking so hard that he is unbalanced and bouncing up and down on the animal's back.

Whips and spurs are not necessarily instruments of torture as some appear to believe. They certainly are if in ignorant hands, but not used if correctly.
It's interesting that in my experience (before I get accused of generalising) a lot of the people who claim these tools are abusive are those that have had bad reactions from horses when used. To me that says more about the riders than the tools.
 
In an industry which thinks its ok to race 2yr old horses, beating them up with whips comes pretty far down on the list of priorities to people like this.

As it's run now, racing is pretty disgusting, but its better than it was.
 
I have only scanned most comments on this topic as it's late and its a lot of reading lol, but as someone who has worked in racing and now work for a sanctuary this is something I get a lot of stick about, so I just want to say my piece.
Firstly, any jockey will tell you that the whip doesn't make them go faster. Everybody knows that, ask a jockey what they use a stick for and they will reply with "to keep them focused on the job they are being asked to do, and to try and prevent any accidents".
I heard Tony Mccoy come out with a comment once which just sums it up for me entirely; "Sometimes you ride a horse and you think, if this was a human being, it would be in prison." It's plain stupidity to ride a race without a stick. For example, if the horse veers to the right suddenly, how are you going to stop that without a stick? A tap down the neck is enough to stop a racehorse from swerving into the other horses..
The whip is used for loads of reasons, and not one of them is to make them go faster, so that whole study was a waste of time and money. In my opinion.
 
This was an Australian research project and as someone who has ACTUALLY worked in racing both here and in Australia, I feel I can atleast comment. Racing is more strictly regulated here than there. All you can hear in the last furlong is whip cracks over there, much different here. I also want to say that if you lot think you can steer a horse going at 40 mph when you are basically standing on its back without a whip then you are all far more talented than the top jockeys then. A whip is more for steering then anything else and if we called it something different - i.e. carrot stick, you may think about it in a totally different way.
Stop jumping on the racing industry like it is the only cruel thing in the horse world, I've seen far worse in Dressage (3 year old warmbloods broken in, in tight draw reins) and Polo over the years.
 
having worked in racing and my husband is a jump jockey our collective take is as such.....
-no whips on 2 yr olds
-no whips on 3yr old hurdlers/bumpers
-If a jockey wins but is found guilty of excessive use then the horse should be disqualified as well as the jockey getting a compulsary ban. This would alivate the onus on the jockey to get the horse home at any cost due to pressure from punters/owners & trainers.
 
This is my first post in months and I lurk frequently but felt I had to comment on this!

I have never competed or ridden dressage at any level that I feel I can have a great opinion on the sport as a whole. Certain aspects look possibly harsh but as I dont understand the mindset or methods behind what the rider or tack/gadget is performing in I choose to keep quiet! And trust that the friends and people I respect who do dressage would never be involved in anything remotely cruel or harsh! Hence on this subject I am a plonker!lol
I get the feeling many of you should do this on this subject.
I compete my horses team chasing, hunter trialling and eventing with a racing whip as much as I can when legal to do so for a very good reason....work that reason out!
Anyone who doesnt understand the racing world should seek qualified opinion not one sided articles or uneducated arguments to gain knowledge.
Find a local yard and see if they will let you watch them ride out but most importantly if they will allow you to watch a piece of work being ridden. This will give you a great insight to not only the whip subject but also a greater understanding of the industry as a whole.
Having ridden out for 2 of the UKs best ever trainers and many other small NH trainers and P2P trainers, had some rides and also get employed by a few trainers to ride work and school over fences I feel semi qualified to give my opinion on this subject.

It is one of the most regulated sports in the world! This alone should tell you something.
And whoever commented re focus and line. Spot on! And the other person re a wiley horse to keep it moving forward and for encouragement. Spot on!
Oh and I have run out of enthusiasm to justify the whip argument further and to provide further details as to the whys and wherefores etc. Think it would be wasted on 70% of the previous posters on this thread anyway!

Feel free to PM me with abuse
 
I grew up with cowboys as my heroes - Monty Roberts would have been beaten to death as quietly as possible in a barn and buried in a shallow grave! There wasn't much thought given to the horse - he was viewed as something to be mastered - all bucking broncos and I don't think I ever heard anything to the contrary until I started working with an almost retired plough horse called Pedro aged 36. He used to be brought out for a couple of hours and hooked up to a "Jalo" weeder and I soon gravitated to doing the steering - very quickly realising that he knew far more about the job than I did! He was quite willing but also very stubborn and if he thought he'd stop - he would, I quickly learned that if he lifted his back leg it was to tell me there was a stone lodged in between the tyne and coulter making it hard to pull but old Pedro could equally stop just to take in the day! He was of course held in high regard by the farmer and his regular handler ( who'd served in the First World War!) and if I had taken a stick to this horse it would be me buried somewhere.

Later I happened upon Kempton Park Races in the days when only the jockeys wore anything coloured - the crowd looked siepia or perhaps it's my memory that's turning brown! I helped out in the saddling boxes with all the other lads and was astonished at the level of brutality - human as well as horse - so yes, racing has changed a lot over the years but still has further to go.

I do appreciate the points about steering but also feel that this is a well used excuse by bad jockeys - ( and don't forget the trainers ) who persistently urge their mounts into crazy positions. Horses that change tack dangerously aren't really fit to race eh?

I like the idea of any jockey found guilty of misuse being disqualified and the horse loosing any prizemoney - that would end this business overnight.
 
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