White Line Disease

[be positive]

Having treated countless hoof abscess over a 50 year period my comments are from experience. The horse is lame because there is inflammation from bacteria infection. It needs to be poulticed until all the bacteria has gone, I also use a topical antibiotic such as the sort used for mastitis. Once the abscess is fully clean and drained the horse will go sound. You now need to keep this wound clean until the damaged hoof is replaced. This is where the Stockholm tar, cotton wool, leather pad and shoe come in. You protect the foot with them while it has a chance to heal. Remember that while the horse is lame he is in pain. This method reduces the length of time and intensity of pain the horse suffers.

But why would you start shoeing an unshod horse just to get it over an abscess, I have also dealt with numerous and the unshod ones recovered without shoeing, the shod ones had a normal shoe back on without a pad and they all recovered in a short period of time with just the normal wet then dry poulticing treatment , the OP's horse is still lame which is a concern but shoeing will not help with the problem long term as the white line will be under the shoe so still vulnerable to infection and be harder to treat.

I also think it needs treating at the bottom, yes it can creep up the foot, seedy toe being an example of an infection taking hold but I don't think it starts at the top otherwise seedy toe would need cutting out from the coronary band, a good diet builds good feet along with exercise to get them functioning as they should.

 

[ester]

I don't think we should be considering abscesses and seedy toe/white line disease as the same thing.

Though neither would benefit from shoeing unless the horse is shod anyway.

If it starts at the top as claimed, how come when it has gone a long way up/has a gas pocket etc if you resect to that point it is fine.. you don't have to resect up to the coronary band to resolve the issue..

 

[Leo Walker]

This isnt the first time Tnavas has said ludicrous things that simply cant be true. Wasnt there some ridiculous carry on about rain scald at one point?

 

[Tnavas]

In reply to several of the above.

Stockholm Tar, a pad and shoeing, protect the damaged food, preventing foreign bodies from re entering the foot. It is only a temporary thing if the horse is not normally shod. The Stockholm Tar packed into the wound will treat the white line disease.

Leo Walker - Re Rainscald, take your blinkers off! I have discussed this with several vets around the world and they are now using modern antifungal shampoos to treat it. What I found out a little by accident I went on to treat a number of horses with Rain Scald and Mudfever with excellent, pain free results.

White line disease/seedy toe, whichever you wish to call it, when cut out it is narrower at the top than the bottom! Why? Because the hoof itself is narrower at the top! As I suggested earlier the coronary bad becomes infected with the fungus, it could be almost a year until you start seeing the damage as it takes that long for the hoof to grow down. Treat the part which grows the horn, rather than just trying to clean up the bottom. Do both but think HOW can a dense dead material develop this infection?

I think outside the square, try new things, luckily I have access to multiple horses.

OP if you have got this horses foot really clean and the abscess drained and it's still unsound, I hope your vet is suggesting an X Ray, An abscess can track all over the place, if it has reached the pedal bone it could possibly have infected it.

If any of you reading this have a fungal nail, start rubbing in Vicks Vapour rub into it. None of the doctors treatments have worked and I gave up with them over a year ago. A friend suggested rubbing Vicks into the nailbed, several months later I have a healthy nail the next time I cut the nail the damaged area will have gone. The actual symptom of the fungal nail is the same as White line disease, weak, cheesy textured nail. It's also painfull to dig out the cheesy stuff!

Leaving you all with something new to mull over, after all, it's the way medicine develops and improves.

 

[Leo Walker]

Leo Walker - Re Rainscald, take your blinkers off! I have discussed this with several vets around the world and they are now using modern antifungal shampoos to treat it. What I found out a little by accident I went on to treat a number of horses with Rain Scald and Mudfever with excellent, pain free results.

White line disease/seedy toe, whichever you wish to call it, when cut out it is narrower at the top than the bottom! Why? Because the hoof itself is narrower at the top! As I suggested earlier the coronary bad becomes infected with the fungus, it could be almost a year until you start seeing the damage as it takes that long for the hoof to grow down. Treat the part which grows the horn, rather than just trying to clean up the bottom. Do both but think HOW can a dense dead material develop this infection?

I dont have blinkers on. I am about as progressive and interested in new things as you can get. I'm also lucky enough to be able to evaluate the things I read.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

 

[ester]

What you are talking about isn't medicine if it isn't just some pet theory you have come up with. I am totally open to new theories which is why I have asked you for any other person but yourself who agrees with that theory.

You still haven't answered why when people resect it is only necessary to go up to the point of infection. If it were coming from the coronary band surely it would continue to be a problem? I think that's a pretty reasonable question to ask.

 

[Tnavas]

I dont have blinkers on. I am about as progressive and interested in new things as you can get. I'm also lucky enough to be able to evaluate the things I read.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

Well you luck just ran out!

Well I'm sorry that you haven't the courage to try something new - maybe you are one of the people who put your horse through torture picking off scabs for rain scald and mudfever, getting kicked at in the process. When mine get it - I'm in a high humidity wet area - They get washed with Nizoral and a happy horses after, the itching has stopped (fungal infections itch terribly) the scabs have dissolved and the infection doesn't spread further. You can also use Nizoral for Ringworm too.

Maybe give the Nizoral shampoo a try! Interesting fact is that the latest veterinary editions are now describing Mud Fever and Rain Scald as a FUNGAL and bacterial infection!

As far as white line/seedy toe goes, mine is never troubled by it despite the humid conditions she lives in, but then I hoof oil every day, inside and out with good ol Day, Carr & Martin hoof oil.

 

[Tiddlypom]

Good grief, Tnavas, do you think that my ex Olympic equine team GB vet should have dremmelled in from the top, not the bottom, when he treated my youngster's extensive seedy toe infection :eek3:?

Do you want to tell him, or should I?

 

[paddy555]

As far as white line/seedy toe goes, mine is never troubled by it despite the humid conditions she lives in, but then I hoof oil every day, inside and out with good ol Day, Carr & Martin hoof oil.

neither are mine but I attribute that to barefoot and the trim as I don't use any hoof products, oil or cornucresine. I don't see any point in a pad, stockholm tar or shoes. I wouldn't want to trap infection. From the pics I would bevel the wall in the WLS areas.

 

[Tnavas]

Good grief, Tnavas, do you think that my ex Olympic equine team GB vet should have dremmelled in from the top, not the bottom, when he treated my youngster's extensive seedy toe infection :eek3:?

Do you want to tell him, or should I?

Well here's your chance to give the Cornucrescene a try, or you could try the Vicks treatment. The damaged horn has been removed as far as can be done from below so giving it a try from the growth area wouldn't hurt and it's not invasive.

In the past I had a horse with Seedy toe, he arrived with it and it had been regularly dug out by the farrier (UK qualified), packed with Copper Sulphate but never got any better. A year later it was gone, I'd been rubbing Cornucrescene into the coronary band daily. All four feet vastly improved quality.

My own vet was sceptical when I discussed the treatment for rain scald but now prescribes Ketaconisl, the active ingredient of Nizoral.

 

[Leo Walker]

Well you luck just ran out!

Well I'm sorry that you haven't the courage to try something new - maybe you are one of the people who put your horse through torture picking off scabs for rain scald and mudfever, getting kicked at in the process. When mine get it - I'm in a high humidity wet area - They get washed with Nizoral and a happy horses after, the itching has stopped (fungal infections itch terribly) the scabs have dissolved and the infection doesn't spread further. You can also use Nizoral for Ringworm too.

Maybe give the Nizoral shampoo a try! Interesting fact is that the latest veterinary editions are now describing Mud Fever and Rain Scald as a FUNGAL and bacterial infection!

As far as white line/seedy toe goes, mine is never troubled by it despite the humid conditions she lives in, but then I hoof oil every day, inside and out with good ol Day, Carr & Martin hoof oil.

What are you talking about? You make no sense at all and I'm starting to wonder if I am in the Twilight Zone. You are absolutely off your rocker!

 

[Tnavas]

I absolutely do not share this theory!
How is this supposed to work? The infection is at the bottom on the inside. How does applying a blister at the top on the outside help?!

The hoof grows from the top, down! The coronary band is only leathery - it can be damaged easily and we know from experience that when cut it carries the scar down the hoof. If the Coronary band is infected by a fungus it could produce what you ultimately see as seedy toe.

OP be careful whose advice you take on here. There is some absolutely shockingly terrible advice on this thread

Your words - maybe your advice it not too sound either - but OH! you haven't given any advice at all - just knocked other posters for their thoughts!

This isnt the first time Tnavas has said ludicrous things that simply cant be true. Wasnt there some ridiculous carry on about rain scald at one point?

I have been proved very correct in my thoughts on Rain Scald and Mudfever and have got testemonials from many people who have contacted me after on the success of using NIzoral - there are even fellow members on this site also recommending Nizoral now. I also have vets in four countries now using it - so your comment is pretty pathetic

I dont have blinkers on. I am about as progressive and interested in new things as you can get. I'm also lucky enough to be able to evaluate the things I read.

You are talking absolute nonsense.

I said I had a 'theory about Seedy Toe' - I've yet to put it into full test mode. After the winter we've had here in NZ there may be a few at the yard I keep my horse on that will have horses that have developed Seedy Toe. Like all theories there are those that will disagree and be hostile - after all we once believed the world was flat!

What are you talking about? You make no sense at all and I'm starting to wonder if I am in the Twilight Zone. You are absolutely off your rocker!

Leo - you have done nothing but insult me on this thread. - Agree or disagree that is your prerogative but don't bring personal insults into comments.

 

[Surbie]

There is no reason to shoe and certainly no reason to put a pad on which will stop the progressive healing and treatment, I would be a little concerned he is still lame but that may be nothing to do with the abscess hole and should improve as his feet tighten up, keep walking on the hard surfaces if he is comfortable enough as that will stimulate growth, get the frogs working better, the central sulcus is fairly deep and should improve with movement, walking will also help with some self trimming, the hole itself should be gone within a few weeks.

Thanks so much. He is now 95% sound in trot, just had a little wobbly when he was trotted up today. His feet are improving and were apparently awful when the shoes came off but that's before my time. Keeping on with the Milton/Cleantrax soaks all round and very conscientious picking out for now, plus walks on hard surfaces.

Surbie have you x rayed?

No, not yet because he's just shy of being sound. If it gets worse though...

I would be concerned that the horse has-been lame for o er three weeks.
Personally I would not loan or take on anything with white line disease as it can be very difficult to get on top of. My cousins mare has had it for over three years despite being on a bare foot diet and healthy in all other respects on only having the white line disease in one hoof.
What breed is the horse?
Are you paying to loan this horse?

He's a cob. And no, not at the moment.

 

[ester]

ah so now it's a theory developed by a riding instructor that is untested....

And my valid and sensible questions and requests cannot be answered apparently.

 

[Tnavas]

ah so now it's a theory developed by a riding instructor that is untested....

And my valid and sensible questions and requests cannot be answered apparently.

Ester, sorry I can't answer your questions, I said quite clearly in my first post that it was a theory!

I'm not just a riding instructor, HM is my speciality, I teach senior Pony Club members from all over the North Island at H level, with a 100% pass rate, including one with Honours.

I do look outside the square a lot, especially with something like white line disease which is so hard to clear up. Hopefully I will be able to put it to the test in the next few months, but in the meantime it's not going to hurt to give my idea a try.

At some point I will get to talk to my vet, however I so rarely see her as my horses don't get sick. I'm more likely to come accross her at a party! Will keep folks updated.

 

[Leo Walker]

Your words - maybe your advice it not too sound either - but OH! you haven't given any advice at all - just knocked other posters for their thoughts!

I have. My advice is not to listen to yours


I have been proved very correct in my thoughts on Rain Scald and Mudfever and have got testemonials from many people who have contacted me after on the success of using NIzoral - there are even fellow members on this site also recommending Nizoral now. I also have vets in four countries now using it - so your comment is pretty pathetic

No you havent. We went through this last time. The reason I mentioned it was not to be pathetic, but to highlight that you have past form for behaving in a very, very odd fashion, giving out at best dubious at advice


I said I had a 'theory about Seedy Toe' - I've yet to put it into full test mode. After the winter we've had here in NZ there may be a few at the yard I keep my horse on that will have horses that have developed Seedy Toe. Like all theories there are those that will disagree and be hostile - after all we once believed the world was flat!


This is nothing to do with the world being flat. It is everything to do with you being unable to understand that what you are saying is bizzare

Leo - you have done nothing but insult me on this thread. - Agree or disagree that is your prerogative but don't bring personal insults into comments.

The only insult I have made is to say you are off your rocker.Very mild in the big scheme of things. Also true

OP, I hope some of the advice has been useful and your pony recovers soon

 

[ester]

So if you cannot answer my very logical questions you understand then that it is a theory with some significant flaws in logic

It's not about looking outside the box, riding/HM you are an instructor. You are not a scientist trained in the critical thinking required for the development and testing of hypotheses and you are not a vet or hoof care professional handling perhaps hundreds of cases a year which would mean your anecdotal thoughts might hold more sway.
Micro organisms are my 'thing' and I have been paid to research novel approaches so am good to be out of the box, but you've not been able to give sound reasoning for your theory and have picked totally spurious comparisons to make your point which makes it rather hard to take seriously.

You say white line disease is so hard to clear up, that is certainly not my experience. Perhaps it is different in the Southern Hemisphere.

 

[MDB]

Diet, weight control, and regular trimming to reduce pressure and flare.

My 2 both had white line separation for over a year. Not dissimilar to your photos. I tried every topical treatment possible. Then i put them on a diet in May to lose weight, Brought them off the grass, and trimmed them regularly, bevelling back to the white line to reduce the stress in these areas. Three months on, the white line separation has virtually disappeared completely .I am convinced the weight loss and diet have made the biggest impact.

 

[Surbie]

Well he's still lame. Was briefly plugged & shod when 95% there, then went back to being very lame in trot. And then in walk.

He was x-rayed today. The good news is there is no infection showing in the bone, his pedal bone's fine. Plus, for a total wuss, he behaved impeccably with all the kit and power leads around him.

And the white line is closing up. Now the shoe is back off I can keep on with treating it.

Vet thinks it's just a ruddy great big hole and will take (lots of) time to close up. Back to dry poultices and the vet's coming back tomorrow with something to plug it possibly. Shoes staying off, which I prefer.

Horse is a poultice ripper though. Anyone know where to get BIIIG poultice boots? That hoof's 17cm wide & 18.5cm long.

 

[ester]

were there any gas pockets higher up or just what you can see/get to easily? I presume that latter .

I've used cavallos to poultice before, (sealed up the drainage holes) and they do big hoof sizes now if you could find some.

https://www.cavallo-inc.com/measuring-and-fitting/

I think a chronic WLD situation can be tricky, Michen's lad was resected because of gas pockets you couldnt get treatment too and the wall has grown down well but he's still not 100% at the moment.

 

[Michen]

were there any gas pockets higher up or just what you can see/get to easily? I presume that latter .

I've used cavallos to poultice before, (sealed up the drainage holes) and they do big hoof sizes now if you could find some.

https://www.cavallo-inc.com/measuring-and-fitting/

I think a chronic WLD situation can be tricky, Michen's lad was resected because of gas pockets you couldnt get treatment too and the wall has grown down well but he's still not 100% at the moment.

Yep mine had to have a resection, there was a gas pocket that was a little too close to the pedal bone to ignore. He's still 2/10 lame on that hoof but his latest trim removed all of the remaining hole so not sure if he would be sound now if I trotted him up, I'm not bothering to look for another few weeks yet. It's been a real pain in the arse frankly!

 

[Michen]

Also I would add, in hindsight (such a wonderful thing) I wish I hadn't shod him after the resection (he had rock crunching feet) as I feel it effectively masked the lameness, therefore he was in work (as per vets advice), when in reality he wasn't sound.

 

[tallyho!]

I think it starts at the coronet and as the hoof spreads outwards the white line gets wider and wider. The infection is there at the top starting in an area that is vulnarable.

Andalucian what makes you think Iodine and cornucrescene is too strong?

Well, you are partially right Tnavas - if the hoof angle is poor and stretching the laminae, the infection could indeed spread up to the coronet but never the other way around. You ask anyone who dissects cadavers and they will tell you that WLD starts from the ground. So your logic about sealing it as it grows IS correct but not that the WLD starts at the coronet.

WLD is a diet issue but could also be exacerbated by a poor trim. I would start the horse on a decent mineral mix (try forageplus/equimins/progressive earth/thunderbrook) and address the hoof quality to ensure a good tight growth from now on. You can cleantrax the feet but you can't heal the cracks that are there. Have you got any side photos of the hoof and straight on?

 

[Surbie]

Also I would add, in hindsight (such a wonderful thing) I wish I hadn't shod him after the resection (he had rock crunching feet) as I feel it effectively masked the lameness, therefore he was in work (as per vets advice), when in reality he wasn't sound.

This, absolutely. While I wish I could ride him, I don't mind waiting for him to come right and now I've got used to barefoot horses I find it easier to keep them clean.

I will ask about gas pockets, and thanks for the pointer. The vet said that on initial view (are reviewing at the surgery later today) there was nothing to be concerned about. They'll be back out tomorrow to consider packing the hole, which was clean and dry.

 

[Casey76]

You're going to need a Cavallo "Big Foot" boot for a foot that big - BUT poulticing is 100x easier with a hoof boot, as no millions of layers of duct tape or feed bags are needed; just the poultice and some vet wrap to keep it on the foot.

 

[arabmania]

A good 45 minute soak in cleantrax, as high as the leg will tub, will kill off the bacteria that is in there. Then be sure to be vigilant of any stones and grit that might imbed in the gaps. Hoof stuff is great for plugging the line separation until it is grown out but needs doing daily. The horses diet may need looking at. Is he given a good supplement daily?

 

[Surbie]

The abcess has proven more of a headache than the WLD, which appears to be clearing well.

Just after the x-rays he was plugged again after being assessed as sound. The abcess must have skinned over with a bit of yuk behind it or was never wholly gone and being able to trickle drain masked it. It blew up again, this time travelling horizontally and high up in the hoof - x-rays done straight off. Horse was in a lot of pain. Vet dug more to relieve pressure. He was then poulticed & put on the list for a resection as it just wasn't draining.

The day before the op I had him out for some grazing. Led a newish mare through the field and he put on a proper show for her: galloping wonkily but at speed, bucking, prancing and generally showing off how amazing he is. Even managed to suck in his belly. All the display put a lot of pressure on the abcess and it finally started draining!

Which meant he wasn't resected, he has a shoe on with a plate and an open hole that I flush daily and plug with iodine-soaked gauze. After a week in the indoor school he is out in the field and very happy - he doesn't like being in a box. And I devoutly hope that this is it and it will just grow out slowly. He is sound in walk so I am leading him out for in-hand hacks to keep us doing something together and so he sees more than a field.

Any tips on hoof supplements for a barefoot (mostly!) and sweetitch horse? Forage analyses are being done.

 

[ester]

So you may want to balance to your forage to your analysis but the best of the shelfs in no particular order would be:
prohoof (proearth)
forage plus
equimins adv. complete - is a bit low in magnesium (I feed this and add some extra)
equivita.


In addtion micronised linseed (charnwoods) is nothing but all round good!

 

[tallyho!]

Serbie, you really need to feed the hoof horn now. You didn't really say what diet the horse was actually on but you need to remove any sugar if the horse is still footy. Soak hay for 30 mins (this is enough to leach sugar out but not too much of the vitamins and minerals or to grow bacteria) and try to add a good mineral supplement.

Make sure the hoof horn is trimmed well, so that there is no additional stretching of the white line.

It's hard to get rid of WLD by topically treating... tighter healthier hoof growth will gradually push the fungal/bacterial infection out and will be hard for it to get a hold in future.

 

[Surbie]

He's on grass, haylage (5-6kg/day while he's in having feet dried/groomed/sweetitch checked etc), minimal speedibeet and salt. That's it normally. He's on antibiotics for a couple more weeks, which means he's getting about 4-8 carrots a day and a bit more speedibeet to make sure he eats it all. After that the carrots are reduced to 1-2 cut into batons for his stretches.

He is coming over to me and a friend to share and we're starting to talk supplements for after the analysis comes back. Linseed is on the list, and the hoof supplement list is really helpful, thank you!

He's a bit fat, but apart from losing muscle from lack of work he's in great condition - his coat is amazingly thick, soft and shiny, he's not very footy but then he's done no work for ages. He's been in the indoor school as turnout to keep his feet dry. He has sweetitch, but since Snuggy rugs have been on religiously most of his mane has grown back and his tail is coming through.