Who does parreli with their horse?

whilst trying to be diplomatic he got a youngster in such a state, snorting, sweating, eyes on stalks (whites in all!) and the poor horse clearly did not understand what he wanted him to do and every foot the horse put wrong, he got a rope chucked into its face. Then when he eventually stopped and walked over to this horse (horse was trembling), he put his hand up to pat it and the horse nearly jumped out of its skin! The horse walked into the arena a calm normal horse and walked out a nervous wreck!....perhaps not so diplomatic but im entitled to my opinion I guess.
 
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Yes, I've seen some of the behind the scenes stuff of various natural horsemanship gurus (mentioning no names) at a venue close to Glos.....enough to put you off for life....
I can't believe they can get away with not being truthful like that...and no-one says...even though they have huge retinues of folk running round after them....
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Who was it? PM me if you can't post it on the board.
 
Hi
I have used Parelli methods with a horse that was dangerous ( reared badly). The methods I have been Taught def do not involve hitting or whacking of any kind as my horse def doesn't respond in a positive way to this (was tried by traditional trainers - result broken ribs for me!!). The methods are used to gain respect and trust with the horse. This has resulted in him being willing to work rather than resentful.
If you are interested in Parelli and want to learn more I would have a lesson with an instructor and try it for yourself. I would say this forum may not be the best place for a positive review.....
I can't comment on what others have seen or done only on my own experiences with several parelli professionals which have all been excellent.
Will run and hide now....
 
Perhaps Pat Parelli, himself, may be an exception, but the chap I saw was Neil Pye and I was NOT impressed - in fact quite a few people got up and walked out. The horse he hit on the head came in quiet and trusting - he went out of the school a nervous wreck and very head shy.

The palomino below belongs to my friend - she is pretty laid back but got really pi**ed off with all the rope shaking and carrot stick waving. Trouble was that all six horses which he used to demonstrate with at this particular livery yard had no problems in the first place, neither did their owners, so why mend it when it's not broke???

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Hmm I feel Parelli is far too comercial, why do you need all these specific items to bond with your horse? What happened to old fashioned common sense.

I got a nervy mare, would retreat to the back of her stable if you came in with tack etc, I took a book and sat in the banks and read my book, she started coming to see what I was doing, same in the field. If she got a bit too forwards being led, then she is halted, asked to step back two or three paces, then allowed to walk on again, same prinicple if a bit OTT being ridden, they soon learn that its much easier to do as asked otherwise they have to stop and go backwards.

Maybe that does come from a NH school, maybe its just common sense?
 
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Hmm I feel Parelli is far too comercial, why do you need all these specific items to bond with your horse? What happened to old fashioned common sense.

I got a nervy mare, would retreat to the back of her stable if you came in with tack etc, I took a book and sat in the banks and read my book, she started coming to see what I was doing, same in the field. If she got a bit too forwards being led, then she is halted, asked to step back two or three paces, then allowed to walk on again, same prinicple if a bit OTT being ridden, they soon learn that its much easier to do as asked otherwise they have to stop and go backwards.

Maybe that does come from a NH school, maybe its just common sense?

[/ QUOTE ]Its the kind of thing Kelly Marks recommends. I know she sometimes advises people to get a duely halter, but for the most part she isn't pushing kit. She also said in her first book 'don't think just because an idea is your own, that it can't be brilliant - you don't need experts when you have the basics'! I was completely new to horses 7 years ago (common sense when you know nothing about horses doesn't always work so I found her book very helpful) and was very impressed by that. It stopped me hanging on the every word of others and start listening to my horse and my instincs.

Parelli is a brilliant business. Excellent for making wealth, but all a bit unpleasent to me.
 
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Yes, I've seen some of the behind the scenes stuff of various natural horsemanship gurus (mentioning no names) at a venue close to Glos.....enough to put you off for life....
I can't believe they can get away with not being truthful like that...and no-one says...even though they have huge retinues of folk running round after them....
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Who was it? PM me if you can't post it on the board.

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No offence, but I'd rather not PM such a new member as you are relatively unknown to me. The NH bunch are rich and notoriously reliant on litigation...and there's nothing in it for me in telling you what I've seen.
But when you next go to a clinic...and the commentator says 'Jonty has never met these horses before' take it with a big pinch of salt, as IME they'll have picked six or so out of around 20 horses offered, and worked with them for at least a day if not two beforehand...with up to 10 people to ensure the horse learns what is good for it.
I wish I hadn't seen the stuff I have...and don't for a moment think that all of the NH practitioners are the same. But the two I've seen were both awful....and dishonest.
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Isn't Parelli for people who have horses as pets... who are frightened of riding... or do not have good old fashioned "horse sense"?? Why would I want to stand my horse on a tub anyway?! OK, the can is well and truly open!
* I'm running away quick!!*
 
i wouldnt subject ANY of my ponies to damaging and blatent bullying.

It's over-rated commercialised Bollox.
 
I love the Parelli posts, they're so... predictable!
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I was going to post about it not being about standing on tubs, about we all need to be a bit commercial, about I find Kelly Marks just as hard on a horse as PatP, about there being bad students in all horsemanship... and then I thought I can't be bothered to say it all again.
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Hi Naturally
I think alot of what has been said has been overreacted too I like the natural horsemanship approach.I dont practice parelli all the time I used the bits that helped build up a bond between me and my horse.
Contrary to what people have said on the forum I actually like to ride 6 days a week and I am pulling my hair out at the moment because my horse is on box rest.The comment about what I do with my schooling whip was rather cutting( not your comment).I dont poke prod or whip my horse I think you can take the best from every discipline and that is what I have tried to use .
I agree with your comment about being a passive leader that is what I was interested in and have used.My comments were aimed at the best of parelli I dont hit my horse with a carrot stick or anything else from the ground.I cant believe how aggressive people have been on one subject .It was never my intention of undermining everyone else s training methods.I dont recall saying the bhs training methods being cruel .I dont believe I critised anyone elses methods in training .I actually have a bhs trained instructor who I work with on a weekly basis.I thought on this forum we were able to exchange views and were all looking to improve our relationship with our horse.
I agree with your comments about it being far to commercial I wouldnt buy into their dvds at £200 plus .I receive free dvds from membership club its more like a monthly horse magazine.Like you I am interested in nh and would be interested in who you prefer to study under.I was looking for a non violent method of training like yourself and thought I had found it.
The forum seems to have turned rather violent on the subject dont you think!!!!!!I didnt realise that this subject had been covered before as I am quite new to the forum so dont think Ill bother contributing an opinion on it anymore .Not always a very friendly place.
 
Cellie,
It's a little naieve surely, to think you won't offend any of us by posts implying that everyone aside from NH people like yourself are unkind and beat their horses with their schooling whips? Perhaps you didn't mean it like that...but that's certainly how it came across to me.
Surely you have enough foresight to see that some of us would not appreciate these implications and would strongly refute them. I've yet to see any trainer, OTHER than the big NH names, treat a horse cruelly. And the NH names obviously don't do it in front of the crowds...they 'sort the horses out' beforehand.
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I am glad that you don't do these things - and glad that the reason the NH folk have to 'train' and frighten their horses in private, prior to the demos/clinics etc, is presumably because the horsey public in the UK won't permit it.
If you can, try to sneak in to a venue the morning and afternoon before an evening demo....and watch surreptitiously...they'll ask you to leave if they spot you...then you'll see why some people, myself included, are now cynical about these trainers.
And don't be put off posting...we can have a debate with strong views without resorting to personal insults on here, I'm sure
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I just felt the need to respond to your comment.I never said that other trainers and the bhs schooled in cruelty.I use a bhs instructor she is excellent at her job.I wouldnt dream of asking you to see the light.What I am saying is I have used some of his methods and they worked for my horse.I liked the principle of natural horsemanship.My horse was frightened of the lunging whip I dont know how he was trained before I bought him he was young and not long of the race track. I dont poke or prod him with the carrot stick I bought it because he was so nervous of the schooling whip someone must have given him a good crack with it before I had him.I think all ways of training have their good points and bad points some of the parelli teachings have helped him adjust into a gentle and trusting horse .
 
The trouble is, Cellie, that you obviously are a horse person, and can therefore make an educated decision as to what tools to use, and what not to use. Your example of not using the carrot stick on your particular horse because of previous bad experiences of schooling whips, is a good illustration of how an educated person can use NH.
But, and it's a big but, a significant percentage of the NH 'enlightened' are anything but horsey....and follow the training blindly...until problems ensue. Is it their fault? Is it NH's fault? Who can say....but either way, it can be dangerous for all concerned.
I agree that all training methods have their good and bad points...and if Parelli works for you, that's grand. As you agree, that doesn't mean that all other training methods should be discarded as being cruel.
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A fun debate for those of us new to the forum. Yes, don't be put off, Cellie, I didn't know it had been debated to death either!! I've found this forum fun, addictive and full of really good information, especially CR section where obviously experienced riders patiently give loads of helpful advice and are so encouraging. If you hit a touchy topic then I guess feelings run high but I'm sure its not meant personally.
 
Please don't feel you can't give your opinion - thats what forums are for. Some people (I'm guilty) just love trying to come up with the cockiest put down they can come up with to disagree, its kind of a hobby. Don't take it personally, carry on posting whatever you like and just be glad of debates like this because they can really open your eyes to other perspectives. Your perspective is as valuble as everyone else's, you shouldn't let harsh disagreements put you off giving your thoughts and ideas.
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Looks like we posted at the same time.I thought that the parelli show in Birmingham was the first one ever in the uk that was how it was advertised so niavely didnt realise that they had sent people over to do shows and demos.I can only comment on the show I saw and there was no ill treatment if so I would have walked out and my two friends would have followed. Pat Parelli did make reference to the previous people he worked with who had not used his methods properly that is why he took the licence to advertise and do shows /demos back off them .Maybe these are the people who you have referred to and that other people have seen.They are no longer allowed to work under his hat so to speak.He spoke about how unhappy he was with the methods they had used.
It was never my intention to imply that people who were not into nh mistreat their horses but we have all seen the odd incident that upsets us myself included . One of which Im ashamed to say I saw at pony club.I wish the instructors had seen the loading incident Im sure there would have been some strong words .99.9% of us are into it because we respect and love our animals.I think you have mis- understood my meaning.Ill go back and re read the post but it cetainly wasnt meant that way.Thats the trouble with a forum once written it can be read under a completely different guise.Perhaps Ill stick to reading rather than engaging.
 
I was only kidding on my post...
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If you want to find out about Parelli I will recommend as always that you go to day 1 (and day 2!) of a level 1 introduction clinic and watch. One with completely new students and horses. That is all you need to do. In fact, I think that's probably all you need to do to find out about any trainer. You don't really need to try to get behind the scenes before a demo, seeing it applied with a new horse and person will give you the picture.
Make sure the clinic is being run by an accredited Parelli professional, and not one of the many wanabees that are coming out of the woodwork telling people that they teach Parelli, without having completed the instructor course.
A search for Parelli threads here does bring up some interesting and very long discussions though...
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I would imagine that PatP is happy with the way Neil Pye represents his approach, as last I heard Neil was titled something like "Dean of the University" or suchlike.
 
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Pat Parelli did make reference to the previous people he worked with who had not used his methods properly that is why he took the licence to advertise and do shows /demos back off them

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You know what? That is a snidey thing for Pat to say. I know some of the people he is talking about and he parted with them for completely different reasons. Dave Stewart for example - 4 star instructor - oh yes, of course he wasn't using the methods properly... PatP generally parts company with people when they want to stretch their wings outside of his system in directions he doesn't agree with.
Pat P first came to the UK around 1996 I think, hosted by Sue Gardner. I used to have a magazine with an article about the clinic he gave (with Ross Simpson among the riders) but I EBayed it. The first Savvy Conference must have been shortly after, I first went to one in 1998. Pat has been at all the Savvy Conferences. There was a rough spot for him after he parted company with what used to be his Parelli agency run by Dave, Charlotte Dennis and Richard Marriot, I have to say their Equine Ethology conference was very interesting. They spread their wings and hosted Ray Hunt (a bit of a god!), Carl Hester and others.
I think like many famous people, Pat conveniently chooses to re-write history when it suits him. For example, in his latest book there is a chapter about Magic that conveniently fails to mention Philip Nye - the man who trained her.
Maybe one day someone will be writing a Horse Whispers and Lies about Parelli, as happened to Monty Roberts.
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Cellie - Yep, this forum does get a bit heated at the mention of the word Parelli, but I think most of the comments have been a gesture towards good old fashioned debate rather then personally slagging anyone off, so don't worry! Its a shame NH is so easily translated as Parelli as there are other NH people out there who are very very good.

I don't think Cellie was slagging off schooling whips or meaning to put everyone into 2 categories, either NH or cruel whip wielding b***ards, the only bit I can see is where she (I hope you're a she?!) says its not supposed to be used like a schooling whip - well, its not! (I said supposed, I know thats not reality for some idiots!!), and I've seen bad "non-NH" trainers and I've seen bad NH trainers - but I've seen far more good examples of both.

Shilasdair, just as I hope I've interpreted Cellie's posts correctly I hope you didn't mean every NH practitioner "sorts out" horses before a demo - Yes, I am certain (have seen) at least one who does and heard roumers of another very popular one who would be extremely shocked to learn what goes on a their own yard when they are not there, but I have had the pleasure to observe and work with a couple who are very genuine.

I think a big part of the problem is that its a popular bandwaggon and many people decide to call themselves a NH guru without actually abiding by the core principles.
 
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Shilasdair, just as I hope I've interpreted Cellie's posts correctly I hope you didn't mean every NH practitioner "sorts out" horses before a demo - Yes, I am certain (have seen) at least one who does and heard roumers of another very popular one who would be extremely shocked to learn what goes on a their own yard when they are not there, but I have had the pleasure to observe and work with a couple who are very genuine.
<font color="blue">I've seen two big 'NH' names, and both of them 'sorted out' their horses before their demo/clinic (I worked at a venue so saw behind-the-scenes).
That obviously doesn't mean that ALL NH practitioners (and I use the term NH losely) are anything less than trustworthy, but you'll understand why I'd find it hard not to wonder what goes on behind the scenes...
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In fact I know a few NH people are also BHS trained - these would seem ideal people for advice, as at least you know they aren't falling back on NH because they are weak riders or whatever (which can sometimes be the case). </font>
I think a big part of the problem is that its a popular bandwaggon and many people decide to call themselves a NH guru without actually abiding by the core principles.

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<font color="blue"> So true! I know a few pretty dreadful riders/amateurs with horses who are now advertising themselves as either 'behaviourists' or NH instructors. The trouble is, if their customers aren't cynics like me, a lot of damage can be done before other methods are used.
If people think there's money to be made though....
I'd be interested to go to other NH clinics or demos though, to judge for myself what goes on...perhaps you can suggest some that are on here in the South West (Glos way)?
I do have an open mind....
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Hey Shilasdair

Agree with everything you say there!
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Sorry I'm not from your region so don't know too much about whats on, but vowley farm do a bi-monthly magazine that does have play day listings - the magazine is aimed at and has articles from all sorts, from instructors, to herbal people and barefoot trimmers, its a collection of anyone and everyone so expect some good and some bad but at least there would be a variety. Always 1 or 2 good articles to get you thinking.

I have to go to Spain to get my fix of what I call "true" Natural Horsemanship (PM me if you want details of the website to mooch) - its a small and non-commercialised place that I have spent a lot of time there. Oh, the hardship of relaxed fun under the spanish sun
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I must sound like a 100% NH person... dont get me wrong, I ride dressage, fun rides, "normal" lessons etc too - its one feather of several in my cap and like all of them I take which bits suit and compliment what me and the horse are trying to achieve at the time. I ride out in normal tack because a) the highway code &amp; most competition rules say you must have a saddle and bridle and b) mine and my ride's NH skills are not yet good enough to not need a bit to stop in an emergency, but I try my best to have a co-operative and willing partnership without force, and through NH I have found softness, lightness and willingness that I never knew a burly headstrong Welsh D could have!
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Being able to be at the point where I can get on him in a school without any tack, rope or gadgets at all and to be able to influence him through 3 gaits and direction and be able to stop is pretty darn cool and not something I could have done without this lady from Spain's tutoring
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Sorry I have gone off one one now!
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Back to the point... ah yes, Parelli IMHO is not the best (to put it lightly), some other v well known ones aren't either, but there are still some brilliant ones and I happen to be priviledged to know of and study under one of them
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Shiasdair, I am hosting a clinic in Hereford in September, the details are on www.silversand.com.au under clinics. That might be a new one for you.
Naturally, are you thinking of Tracey James in Spain? I know her and think she's good fun to play horses with.
 
That's her! wasn't going to name names if it was going to turn into a b8tching session on here but I have been a fan and student of hers for a while.
 
Oh, I'll mention her.
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She's studied with Monty Roberts himself (was or is an Intelligent Horsemanship RA as well), was a Parelli student and got close to her level 3 if she didn't pass it - not quite sure, and more recently has studied under Steve Halfpenny. There are probably more...
Here's her website, I'd like to go there sometime, it looks fun.
http://www.naturalhorseridinginspain.com/
 
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