Quadro
Well-Known Member
remember there was that thread about her winning a combined trainning at 2"6 on an advanced horse or something along those lines!!!!!
Who else has has owners who have been sent letters by Georgie Spence?
- Thread starter Concern
- Start date
KatB
Well-Known Member
Thats tame! Eventing is a cut throat world unfortunately!! Georgie is a decent jockey, so she still has to show her talent, especially if it is a horse "poached" from another rider.
Sometimes though, exchanges of horses can backfire
Its upto the owners to take that risk!!
Sometimes though, exchanges of horses can backfire
abbiecope
Member
I think that it is under handed and lacks strength of character! She should be ashamed of herself - if she writes letters to her Peers' owners, she should be upstanding enough to let 'The Riders' hear first rather than second hand from their owners.
KatB
Well-Known Member
I think it's upto the owners who they keep their horses with though?! Surely they are capable of making their own decision?
Just playing devils advocate
Baggybreeches
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
remember there was that thread about her winning a combined trainning at 2"6 on an advanced horse or something along those lines!!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah that was the one I was thinking of!
remember there was that thread about her winning a combined trainning at 2"6 on an advanced horse or something along those lines!!!!!
[/ QUOTE ]
Yeah that was the one I was thinking of!
chester1234
Well-Known Member
FA2 - yes it was her that was pot hunting.
With regards 'Owner Poaching' I think I've worked bloody hard and am incredibly lucky with the two owners I have. I would be fuming if someone wrote to them saying that they could do a better job / the horse should be with them. I have to say I don't particularly like this girl. The two reports I've had on her have been negative to say the least.
With regards 'Owner Poaching' I think I've worked bloody hard and am incredibly lucky with the two owners I have. I would be fuming if someone wrote to them saying that they could do a better job / the horse should be with them. I have to say I don't particularly like this girl. The two reports I've had on her have been negative to say the least.
KatB
Well-Known Member
Have you ever met her L?
I'm not stickning up for her, but she who dares wins and all that
chester1234
Well-Known Member
No I know I haven't and there are probably people that haven't met me that don't like me
but I have to say the two examples of behaviour I've heard [blatantly writing to owners, and taking horses placed highly at intermediate around 75cm] isn't particularly making me think she's ... nice? I'm struggling for a word
jessamess
Well-Known Member
I think it's really cheeky to do that, I mean some 'normal' 'amateur' rides work day and night with no grooms, no indoor school, no top sponsors a normal 9-5 job yet they get their horse (owners horse) up to a decent level from nothing... for a pro rider to snatch the ride from them when they don't need much work doing to them!!!
I think it's pretty disrespectful!!! IMO IMO
I think that if they are 'top riders' 'the best in the country' ect then they should be able to spot a top horse for a baby and be able to bring them on themselves, I have done it (well still in the process ha ha) with no menage, no hacking, school 5 days a week, a part time job, non horsey parents, not many lessons... but yet it means that the final out come is stronger, better, and more meaningful instead of someone just getting a 'ready made' horse just so they stay at the top
I know the riders have worked hard to get to where they are ect, and I'm not saying they don't deserve to be at the top... But i think it is especially cheeky to ask RANDOM owners for rides or to buy them horses, when they are already supporting someone else who is doing a fantastic job, yet the owners get star struck by these top riders and us amateurs get thrown off that special horse that we think will make them and take them to the dream events and give them to someone else
I'm sorry for the bit of the rant I don't do it often but for someone who has worked for everything I have from the very bottom and I mean riding school lessons once a week for 5 years with completely unhorsey parents with not big pay checks and have to work... And I have found a horse that I believe will take me to the top, luckily I own him but I couldn't imagine doing all the work and then it taken away for someone else to enjoy the fruits of my labour would drive me insane and I would kick off LMAO!!!
xxxx
I think it's pretty disrespectful!!! IMO IMO
I think that if they are 'top riders' 'the best in the country' ect then they should be able to spot a top horse for a baby and be able to bring them on themselves, I have done it (well still in the process ha ha) with no menage, no hacking, school 5 days a week, a part time job, non horsey parents, not many lessons... but yet it means that the final out come is stronger, better, and more meaningful instead of someone just getting a 'ready made' horse just so they stay at the top
I know the riders have worked hard to get to where they are ect, and I'm not saying they don't deserve to be at the top... But i think it is especially cheeky to ask RANDOM owners for rides or to buy them horses, when they are already supporting someone else who is doing a fantastic job, yet the owners get star struck by these top riders and us amateurs get thrown off that special horse that we think will make them and take them to the dream events and give them to someone else
I'm sorry for the bit of the rant I don't do it often but for someone who has worked for everything I have from the very bottom and I mean riding school lessons once a week for 5 years with completely unhorsey parents with not big pay checks and have to work... And I have found a horse that I believe will take me to the top, luckily I own him but I couldn't imagine doing all the work and then it taken away for someone else to enjoy the fruits of my labour would drive me insane and I would kick off LMAO!!!
xxxx
KatB
Well-Known Member
Lol! I'm sure that couldn't be possible
Re. the blatantly writing to owners, thats polite in comparison to what some "well respected (and some not so!)" riders do to get horses
Yep agree it does seem shocking, but a lot worse goes on behind closed doors
I think "driven" is the word you are looking for if you are being polite
Re. the blatantly writing to owners, thats polite in comparison to what some "well respected (and some not so!)" riders do to get horses
I think "driven" is the word you are looking for if you are being polite
Kentisheventer
Well-Known Member
shes one of the nicest hard working people! she just wants a career after all. Dont judge a book by the first 2 bad words!
ruby111
Well-Known Member
so what exactly goes on behind closed doors
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
Georgie is lovely, a really nice girl, hard working too. Flora Harris did exactly the same thing not that long ago (Missdesummer got a letter and she not only owns the horse but rides it too - funnily enough she did not hand it over!).
It's really very common, and TBH I would think only riders who were worried about their ability or their relationships with their owners need be concerned about it, surely?
It's really very common, and TBH I would think only riders who were worried about their ability or their relationships with their owners need be concerned about it, surely?
Concern
Member
It's really very common, and TBH I would think only riders who were worried about their ability or their relationships with their owners need be concerned about it, surely?
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, fortunately, my owner brought the letter to show me! However common it is, it is the fact that she is trying frankly stinks - you might think her a "lovely Girl" I did too... until today! I really hope you are never in this position Spotted Cat...
[/ QUOTE ]
As I said, fortunately, my owner brought the letter to show me! However common it is, it is the fact that she is trying frankly stinks - you might think her a "lovely Girl" I did too... until today! I really hope you are never in this position Spotted Cat...
tigers_eye
Well-Known Member
QR: Having worked in sales I think this is a pretty tame and above-board version of cold-calling, which goes on in every business under the sun.
SpottedCat
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
QR: Having worked in sales I think this is a pretty tame and above-board version of cold-calling, which goes on in every business under the sun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well exactly!
I run my own company. I'm about to contact everyone I've ever worked with to expand my client base. This is normal business practice, everyone I've ever worked for has taken their contact book with them, and then 'poached' clients from other companies.
Why is it acceptable for me to do this and not for a rider to contact known owners about new rides/taking over existing rides? I still see ex-colleagues socially and we all know it is not personal, the world keeps turning and TBH those of us who are good enough all have enough work...it's just business.
It's not something to vilify someone for, it's just business.
QR: Having worked in sales I think this is a pretty tame and above-board version of cold-calling, which goes on in every business under the sun.
[/ QUOTE ]
Well exactly!
I run my own company. I'm about to contact everyone I've ever worked with to expand my client base. This is normal business practice, everyone I've ever worked for has taken their contact book with them, and then 'poached' clients from other companies.
Why is it acceptable for me to do this and not for a rider to contact known owners about new rides/taking over existing rides? I still see ex-colleagues socially and we all know it is not personal, the world keeps turning and TBH those of us who are good enough all have enough work...it's just business.
It's not something to vilify someone for, it's just business.
jennystreek
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
QR: Having worked in sales I think this is a pretty tame and above-board version of cold-calling, which goes on in every business under the sun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've worked in sales pretty much all my life, and yes - you do need to cold call at times.
However, I also work on an ethical basis knowing that what goes around comes around.... therefore if I have built up good relationships with people (and liken that to Georgie Spence's friends, ie Concern) then I wouldnt sh*t on them, I would simply prioritise my business else where and look to gain it where I wont be upsetting people I know who have been kind towards me. It works well for me, and I sleep at night because of it
QR: Having worked in sales I think this is a pretty tame and above-board version of cold-calling, which goes on in every business under the sun.
[/ QUOTE ]
I've worked in sales pretty much all my life, and yes - you do need to cold call at times.
However, I also work on an ethical basis knowing that what goes around comes around.... therefore if I have built up good relationships with people (and liken that to Georgie Spence's friends, ie Concern) then I wouldnt sh*t on them, I would simply prioritise my business else where and look to gain it where I wont be upsetting people I know who have been kind towards me. It works well for me, and I sleep at night because of it
Bella3puff
Well-Known Member
I think life is full of things like this and really just do your best for your owners and they will stick by you..... someone is always after your horse, your job, your husband/wife its life.... gets a good strong chain round them all ;0)
Good Quotes for the day!
1, Be carefull who you tread on on the way up, you may meet them on the way down!
2, Do as you would be done by!
3,What comes around goes around!
4, Smile and move on!
5, Things happen for a reason!
Trolls - These people are obviously from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Remember - the Tree of Life is self pruning!!
Good Quotes for the day!
1, Be carefull who you tread on on the way up, you may meet them on the way down!
2, Do as you would be done by!
3,What comes around goes around!
4, Smile and move on!
5, Things happen for a reason!
Trolls - These people are obviously from the shallow end of the gene pool.
Remember - the Tree of Life is self pruning!!
kick_On
Well-Known Member
I would say it's a common aswell, i would be damn sure it's not the only camp writting letters looking for new rides.
You may find it's not too your liking, cos your very happy with your rider and your horses performance, but what if you weren't and were in market for new rider?
You may find it's not too your liking, cos your very happy with your rider and your horses performance, but what if you weren't and were in market for new rider?
chester1234
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
but what if you weren't and were in market for new rider?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then [speaking from someone who has owners] I would think you would discuss it with your current rider? Maybe just my opinion, but it is in effect a business and you wouldn't discuss cutting out your partner with a new partner before you'd spoken to the current one.
I just think it's a bit unfair, particularly as, bearing in mind her age, she's not exactly doing badly for herself. 10 rides [listed on her site] with two at 3* and two at 4*?
but what if you weren't and were in market for new rider?
[/ QUOTE ]
Then [speaking from someone who has owners] I would think you would discuss it with your current rider? Maybe just my opinion, but it is in effect a business and you wouldn't discuss cutting out your partner with a new partner before you'd spoken to the current one.
I just think it's a bit unfair, particularly as, bearing in mind her age, she's not exactly doing badly for herself. 10 rides [listed on her site] with two at 3* and two at 4*?
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
Hmmm, interesting debate. My assessment would be as follows...
1) Of course poaching goes on all the time (do you think Emily Gilruth was HAPPY to lose the ride on ACM?? Rebecca Gibbs on CdC?? etc etc). It is even promoted/stimulated/managed on many occasions by "The Establishment", and we all know who I mean by that, in order to match potentially medal-winning horses with ditto riders. Doesn't make it any more comfortable when you are on the wrong end, nor does it make it necessarily ok.
2) To write letters in such a presumably blanket way is incredibly blatant, most of the poaching is far more subtle/secret (I'm not suggesting this is better or worse just different). It might go on in business but, like it or not, eventing is NOT a business it's a sport - with professionals operating within it, just like in many sports. To use this approach is therefore quite risky - it seems to me either very driven/hard-nosed/ambitious (to use the more polite expressions which have been suggested) or alternatively very naive: Georgie may not have realised the backlash and bad feeling such a letter would cause. Personally (and with my marketing hat on here) I think she's been badly advised as I suspect it will be counter-productive in a number of ways, and there would have been far more useful ways to spend her time and money to achieve her objective.
3) FWIW there are many riders out there who do well WITHOUT resorting to poaching rides, and I'm not referring to "moneyed" individuals who just go out and buy talent
A friend of mine (Olympic medal-winning) will not even enter negotiations with the owner of an established horse until he has spoken to the previous rider and heard their side of the story - that's not to say he will never take on a ride from someone else but he certainly doesn't go poaching. Oli admits to having resorted to certain measures on his way up but I don't think he's proud of them and there's nothing to say he wouldn't have got there anyway but he was a man in a hurry...
4) Finally, coming down to the really personal, Georgie has had her fair share of decent rides over the last few years and has had quite a showcase for her undoubted abilities. I've no idea of her situation and she may well be short of horsepower at the top end at the moment but many people in that situation just knuckle down and concentrate on producing quality youngsters through the grades - patience is a virtue!
1) Of course poaching goes on all the time (do you think Emily Gilruth was HAPPY to lose the ride on ACM?? Rebecca Gibbs on CdC?? etc etc). It is even promoted/stimulated/managed on many occasions by "The Establishment", and we all know who I mean by that, in order to match potentially medal-winning horses with ditto riders. Doesn't make it any more comfortable when you are on the wrong end, nor does it make it necessarily ok.
2) To write letters in such a presumably blanket way is incredibly blatant, most of the poaching is far more subtle/secret (I'm not suggesting this is better or worse just different). It might go on in business but, like it or not, eventing is NOT a business it's a sport - with professionals operating within it, just like in many sports. To use this approach is therefore quite risky - it seems to me either very driven/hard-nosed/ambitious (to use the more polite expressions which have been suggested) or alternatively very naive: Georgie may not have realised the backlash and bad feeling such a letter would cause. Personally (and with my marketing hat on here) I think she's been badly advised as I suspect it will be counter-productive in a number of ways, and there would have been far more useful ways to spend her time and money to achieve her objective.
3) FWIW there are many riders out there who do well WITHOUT resorting to poaching rides, and I'm not referring to "moneyed" individuals who just go out and buy talent
4) Finally, coming down to the really personal, Georgie has had her fair share of decent rides over the last few years and has had quite a showcase for her undoubted abilities. I've no idea of her situation and she may well be short of horsepower at the top end at the moment but many people in that situation just knuckle down and concentrate on producing quality youngsters through the grades - patience is a virtue!
kick_On
Well-Known Member
I don't she is unique...................... with this sort of letters!!! As i said this camp is not the only one sending out these types of letters. So who it is is, is not worth picking on IMHO ..........
As for owners looking for new rider as unhappy with their current ones. You would hope that their current rider would have a good working relationship, BUT human nature being what it is i'm sure that will not always be the case!!!
So getting letter like this could be a good thing for owner and their horse. I think if your a professional rider you have to expect that this could happen (as not owner of all horses in your yard) and try you best, to make sure that all your owners are happy with the horses' result, training etc...
I would hope that ownes if they where unhappy with they would approach and discuss, as it's meant to be a working partnership, but sometimes people just don't do what you think and hope.
On a personnel note i would be 'pissed off' if i lost an owner and they didn't discuss their issues........ BUT that's my issue to sort with old owner and maybe if it happens to many times i should be changes my business plan.
But it is a business and a lot worst happens in no horseyworld of business
As for owners looking for new rider as unhappy with their current ones. You would hope that their current rider would have a good working relationship, BUT human nature being what it is i'm sure that will not always be the case!!!
So getting letter like this could be a good thing for owner and their horse. I think if your a professional rider you have to expect that this could happen (as not owner of all horses in your yard) and try you best, to make sure that all your owners are happy with the horses' result, training etc...
I would hope that ownes if they where unhappy with they would approach and discuss, as it's meant to be a working partnership, but sometimes people just don't do what you think and hope.
On a personnel note i would be 'pissed off' if i lost an owner and they didn't discuss their issues........ BUT that's my issue to sort with old owner and maybe if it happens to many times i should be changes my business plan.
But it is a business and a lot worst happens in no horseyworld of business
kerilli
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
B] It is in effect a business and you wouldn't discuss cutting out your partner with a new partner before you'd spoken to the current one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, if only everyone was that ethical, in business and in eventing! i've heard of horses being sent to different riders without a word to the previous rider (after winter break at home with owners, for e.g.) and being snatched out of yards etc etc.
i don't think you can say it is just a business... we are talking about living breathing animals, about relationships between riders and horses, not just about money and opportunities. i know of at least 1 top rider who was heartbroken when a horse who he adored, and who he had nurtured carefully from a raw youngster to top level, was sent to another rider. not everyone has cast-iron contracts with owners, a lot is done on trust.
what if a rider takes a raw 4yr old worth, say, £6k, and nurtures it up the levels until it is worth £100k or more, for say £150 a week (grooms' wages, rent, bills etc all coming out of that) and has no contract to say that s/he is entitled to a %age if horse is sold or moved? there are lots of riders in this position. surely there should be some professional respect between riders not to poach rides? or am i in cloud cuckoo land?!
TD, that renews my faith... thanks.
B] It is in effect a business and you wouldn't discuss cutting out your partner with a new partner before you'd spoken to the current one.
[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm, if only everyone was that ethical, in business and in eventing! i've heard of horses being sent to different riders without a word to the previous rider (after winter break at home with owners, for e.g.) and being snatched out of yards etc etc.
i don't think you can say it is just a business... we are talking about living breathing animals, about relationships between riders and horses, not just about money and opportunities. i know of at least 1 top rider who was heartbroken when a horse who he adored, and who he had nurtured carefully from a raw youngster to top level, was sent to another rider. not everyone has cast-iron contracts with owners, a lot is done on trust.
what if a rider takes a raw 4yr old worth, say, £6k, and nurtures it up the levels until it is worth £100k or more, for say £150 a week (grooms' wages, rent, bills etc all coming out of that) and has no contract to say that s/he is entitled to a %age if horse is sold or moved? there are lots of riders in this position. surely there should be some professional respect between riders not to poach rides? or am i in cloud cuckoo land?!
TD, that renews my faith... thanks.
JDChaser
Well-Known Member
Very well said Tabledancer.
teddyt
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
what if a rider takes a raw 4yr old worth, say, £6k, and nurtures it up the levels until it is worth £100k or more, for say £150 a week (grooms' wages, rent, bills etc all coming out of that) and has no contract to say that s/he is entitled to a %age if horse is sold or moved? there are lots of riders in this position. surely there should be some professional respect between riders not to poach rides? or am i in cloud cuckoo land?!
[/ QUOTE ]
If a rider would be upset if this happened then they should have a contract to protct themselves. They have been paid to do a job, which they have done well and you would hope the owner would recognise this and reward accordingly but that is not always the case and owners arent obliged to pay more or keep the horse there. They have already paid an agreed amount for the service and If £150 a week isnt enough to cover expenses and time put in then the rider should charge more!
I tripled a horse in value in a year and the horse was sold for a lot of money, i had no idea at the time that the owner was going to do it. I loved the horse too and was a bit upset! However i had to realise that i had been paid to do a job, which i did and i couldnt expect the owner to keep her just for me. Much as i loved the horse it was business and the owner had no obligation to keep the horse. Mind you, that wasnt at 4* level
In respect to the OPs point, i think that results should speak for themselves. Marketing and getting yourself in the public eye is one thing but poaching from a relatively small community is another. If a rider is good then rides will find their way to them. I know of people who have written similar letters and generally it hasnt done them any good, just makes people think badly towards them. Marketing by other means is more successful imo (and more moral)
what if a rider takes a raw 4yr old worth, say, £6k, and nurtures it up the levels until it is worth £100k or more, for say £150 a week (grooms' wages, rent, bills etc all coming out of that) and has no contract to say that s/he is entitled to a %age if horse is sold or moved? there are lots of riders in this position. surely there should be some professional respect between riders not to poach rides? or am i in cloud cuckoo land?!
[/ QUOTE ]
If a rider would be upset if this happened then they should have a contract to protct themselves. They have been paid to do a job, which they have done well and you would hope the owner would recognise this and reward accordingly but that is not always the case and owners arent obliged to pay more or keep the horse there. They have already paid an agreed amount for the service and If £150 a week isnt enough to cover expenses and time put in then the rider should charge more!
I tripled a horse in value in a year and the horse was sold for a lot of money, i had no idea at the time that the owner was going to do it. I loved the horse too and was a bit upset! However i had to realise that i had been paid to do a job, which i did and i couldnt expect the owner to keep her just for me. Much as i loved the horse it was business and the owner had no obligation to keep the horse. Mind you, that wasnt at 4* level
In respect to the OPs point, i think that results should speak for themselves. Marketing and getting yourself in the public eye is one thing but poaching from a relatively small community is another. If a rider is good then rides will find their way to them. I know of people who have written similar letters and generally it hasnt done them any good, just makes people think badly towards them. Marketing by other means is more successful imo (and more moral)
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
[ QUOTE ]
In respect to the OPs point, i think that results should speak for themselves. Marketing and getting yourself in the public eye is one thing but poaching from a relatively small community is another. If a rider is good then rides will find their way to them. I know of people who have written similar letters and generally it hasnt done them any good, just makes people think badly towards them. Marketing by other means is more successful imo (and more moral)
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly!
In respect to the OPs point, i think that results should speak for themselves. Marketing and getting yourself in the public eye is one thing but poaching from a relatively small community is another. If a rider is good then rides will find their way to them. I know of people who have written similar letters and generally it hasnt done them any good, just makes people think badly towards them. Marketing by other means is more successful imo (and more moral)
[/ QUOTE ]
Exactly!
scm
Well-Known Member
Firstly as already said it is only like goes on in other business,I have it done to me where people approach my clients.I do a very good job established 30 years and they don't go!
I would'nt however approach clients who are looked after by friends...if they approach me thats different.
If you are doing a good job for a decent price and respect and get on well with your owners,generally you have not much to fear. In racing it happens all the time where trainers 'tap' owners up even in the bar when they are celebrating a winner!
I would'nt however approach clients who are looked after by friends...if they approach me thats different.
If you are doing a good job for a decent price and respect and get on well with your owners,generally you have not much to fear. In racing it happens all the time where trainers 'tap' owners up even in the bar when they are celebrating a winner!
TableDancer
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it does go on in racing but still in that more "subtle" way. Years ago I was involved in a direct marketing campaign for a training centre (Newmarket, as it happens) based around a very glossy brochure which went out with a letter to all owners across the industry. It caused HUGE bad feeling and, with hindsight, was probably a mistake - we should have been more subtle and targetted our effort better. I learned from that. And the racing industry is a lot bigger than eventing. I don't disagree that the most important thing is to look after your owners well and have good lines of communication with them, then you are less vulnerable.
I still maintain that Georgie's approach is neither unique nor desperately wicked but it is a bit crass and will ultimately not do her any good.
I still maintain that Georgie's approach is neither unique nor desperately wicked but it is a bit crass and will ultimately not do her any good.
K8x
Well-Known Member
Can I just ask where the data came from re contacts and addresses for such a thing? Surely there may be a data protection issue if this has come from a central database?
These things do happen in business, I have a client at the moment who a competitor is trying to poach and has broken all the ethical rules in the book to try and get them. They are perfectly happy with the service we provide so have told them to shove it. However it would have been very easy for them to have gone the other way had they not been happy.
Ultimately there is a free market at play, however eventing as others have said is a very small market indeed, blatent disrespect of peers is never going to be a sensible decision to make in the long term.
These things do happen in business, I have a client at the moment who a competitor is trying to poach and has broken all the ethical rules in the book to try and get them. They are perfectly happy with the service we provide so have told them to shove it. However it would have been very easy for them to have gone the other way had they not been happy.
Ultimately there is a free market at play, however eventing as others have said is a very small market indeed, blatent disrespect of peers is never going to be a sensible decision to make in the long term.
dieseldog
Well-Known Member
The funniest thnig would be if someone one offered her a horse, not their best one, and she said 'Nah, I want that one'
This is no diffferent to the real world, eventing is a business - they have to file tax returns, and getting new rides and making money is part of that.
How is this different to people targeting companies for sponsership, having little websites begging for money, or someone asking if your horse is for sale?
This is no diffferent to the real world, eventing is a business - they have to file tax returns, and getting new rides and making money is part of that.
How is this different to people targeting companies for sponsership, having little websites begging for money, or someone asking if your horse is for sale?