Who is liable?

[Snapdragon1]

First time posting so hope I'm in the right area! On a livery yard with separate paddocks a mare ( shod) breaks into its neighbours field ( rotten fence posts) kicks gelding who shares his paddock with another gelding unshod (same owner) .
Geldings owner gets £750 vets bill no insurance as gelding pretty much un-insureable. Mares owner is insured but won't claim as no witness to actual kick. She blaims YO for rotten fence posts. YO says if he has to claim off his insurance he'll put everyone's livery up. Meanwhile geldings owner £750 out of pocket. Opinions please thank you

 

[OrangeAndLemon]

That's complicated, hope the gelding makes a full recovery.

First double check the livery contract and then I'd be getting advice from the BHS legal helpline, available to all members.

ETA: it might be difficult for the mare owner to claim as their insurance will be for their horse and this sounds more like a third party issue - maybe you were referring to their 3rd party insurance rather than their own horse insurance. Apologies, not an expert, fingers crossed someone more knowledgeable will be along shortly.

 

[AmyMay]

Tricky as there were no witnesses. However my immediate thoughts are if it’s a managed yard, with the YO responsible for the fencing, then they are responsible ultimately.

However I suppose it could be argued that both owners accepted the risk of turning out in inadequately fenced fields.

 

[Abacus]

Presumably it can be proved that the mare did the kicking (shoe mark?) - if not then in theory it might have been the other gelding even if unshod and normally placid (they can be wound up by a mare in their midst). If there is no proof I think the owner of the hurt horse would struggle to claim from the mare owner.
If there is proof that the mare gave the kick - it will def be a matter for legal advice. What sort of fencing was it, if electrified was the electric on, if not electric was it fit for purpose, etc. On the whole my guess is that the person responsible for fencing is responsible for ensuring that it is sound by normal horse standards - but am not an expert.

 

[Jenko109]

To me it should be the yard owner.

I cant see that it matters if the mare kicked the gelding or if the other gelding kicked the gelding. It only happened because the horses were put into an unsafe situation caused the the inadequate fencing.

 

[Snapdragon1]

Presumably it can be proved that the mare did the kicking (shoe mark?) - if not then in theory it might have been the other gelding even if unshod and normally placid (they can be wound up by a mare in their midst). If there is no proof I think the owner of the hurt horse would struggle to claim from the mare owner.
If there is proof that the mare gave the kick - it will def be a matter for legal advice. What sort of fencing was it, if electrified was the electric on, if not electric was it fit for purpose, etc. On the whole my guess is that the person responsible for fencing is responsible for ensuring that it is sound by normal horse standards - but am not an expert.

I think the fencing not fit for purpose tbh as electric intermittent thank you

 

[AmyMay]

It only happened because the horses were put into an unsafe situation caused the the inadequate fencing.

And you know that because……??

 

[Flowerofthefen]

As said above tricky. Where I used to livery we had individual grazing with an alley way up the middle. My horse was the only one on the left and there were 2 individual paddocks on the right. I got a panicking phone call from a friend to say the other livery had turned her mare out in the alley way, she had broken through my fence and kicked my horse, who now couldn't walk. I called vet on way home. Vet said possible fracture but lucit wasn't. Livery tried to blame me!! I was insured but after many arguments she paid my vets bill. Her horse should have been in its own paddock, not the alley way.

 

[Rowreach]

I think

1. That's horses
2. Everyone shares some responsibility, both of the owners because they knew the posts were rotting and the electric was intermittent, and the YO ditto.
3. Hard to prove who kicked who, but it wouldn't have happened if the mare hadn't got in with the geldings

The honourable way out would be to share the cost and for the YO and mare owner to pay a third each of the vet bill. And the YO should fix the fencing at the yard and the liveries shouldn't turn out in fields with inadequate fencing.

 

[Abacus]

I think

1. That's horses
2. Everyone shares some responsibility, both of the owners because they knew the posts were rotting and the electric was intermittent, and the YO ditto.
3. Hard to prove who kicked who, but it wouldn't have happened if the mare hadn't got in with the geldings

The honourable way out would be to share the cost and for the YO and mare owner to pay a third each of the vet bill. And the YO should fix the fencing at the yard and the liveries shouldn't turn out in fields with inadequate fencing.

m

I tend to agree: ‘that’s horses’.

I do understand that on some yards and with some YOs it is extremely difficult to demand that fencing is adequate before turning out. Some just won’t do the right thing. In this case it does sound as though the YO is happy to take livery money without supplying suitable fencing but then threatens price increases if he incurs any cost as a result. It’s not ok, but there is a lack of livery choice (and perhaps fees aren’t high enough to support proper maintenance).

 

[Jenko109]

And you know that because……??

I would say it is a very fair assumption

 

[Rowreach]

m

I tend to agree: ‘that’s horses’.

I do understand that on some yards and with some YOs it is extremely difficult to demand that fencing is adequate before turning out. Some just won’t do the right thing. In this case it does sound as though the YO is happy to take livery money without supplying suitable fencing but then threatens price increases if he incurs any cost as a result. It’s not ok, but there is a lack of livery choice (and perhaps fees aren’t high enough to support proper maintenance).

I'd have invested in my own electric fencing in that case.

 

[AandK]

I think

1. That's horses
2. Everyone shares some responsibility, both of the owners because they knew the posts were rotting and the electric was intermittent, and the YO ditto.
3. Hard to prove who kicked who, but it wouldn't have happened if the mare hadn't got in with the geldings

The honourable way out would be to share the cost and for the YO and mare owner to pay a third each of the vet bill. And the YO should fix the fencing at the yard and the liveries shouldn't turn out in fields with inadequate fencing.

100% this.

 

[FestiveG]

If anyone knowingly chooses to turn their horses out with inadequate fencing, then they are accepting the risk that goes with that, imo

 

[SantaVera]

Yard owner I should think the fencing wasn't fit for purpose.

 

[AmyMay]

I would say it is a very fair assumption

You can’t assume anything without a witness.

 

[Jenko109]

You can’t assume anything without a witness.

Of course I can. If I had two horses living happily together and then another horse broke into their field and one came in injured, I would absolutely be assuming that the injury was as a result of the situation.

 

[AmyMay]

Of course I can. If I had two horses living happily together and then another horse broke into their field and one came in injured, I would absolutely be assuming that the injury was as a result of the situation.

But if there’s no witnesses, you can’t prove who delivered the kick.

 

[Jenko109]

But if there’s no witnesses, you can’t prove who delivered the kick.

I know. Who delivered the kick wasn't the justification for my reasoning though

 

[mariew]

Same, if on a DIY yard and you know your field's fencing they should either have flagged it with yo or put their own fencing in. They must have been aware of the risk.

That's the risk you take, especially without insurance.

 

[Fire sign]

I just cannot imagine , on any yard I have ever been on … having the nerve to claim money from the livery yard because a horse was injured due to inadequate fencing !!!! I have been on yards with bad fencing and have always tried to lesson the risk by using my own electric fencing but it isn’t always possible especially in a really big field …Am not saying it isn’t a reasonable course of action … but none of them would have paid up and they would probably have taken such grave offence that I would have had to leave !!!

 

[Sossigpoker]

If YO provides livery services the fencing should be fit for purpose but it would be gard to prove that the mare wouldn't have gone through the fence if it had been in better state.
You could try and claim against either the mare's owner or the YO but relations might sour if you do.
If I was the mare's owner I'd be blaming the YO for not maintaining the fence
But then, who's to say the mare wouldn't have gone through an adequate fence too?

 

[gallopingby]

Oh dear, the fencing should be fit for purpose, it should be checked regularly by the manager - if there is one - and the person who is in receipt of a service from the owner. There is imo a joint duty I’d care. If there’s a manager the manager is employed by someone or is self employed, which ever situation there should be insurance in place. Some yards will specify that clients must have insurance as part of their contract. This is of course a horse problem and if two horses belonging to the same person decided to fall out and one became injured then what happens if there’s not accidental insurance in place? Worth thinking about??

 

[Fieldlife]

If anyone knowingly chooses to turn their horses out with inadequate fencing, then they are accepting the risk that goes with that, imo

This I think. I don’t think mare owner liable. Maybe if mare had jumped a 4ft fence and been seen then kick the other horse.

I do think if liveries have seen fencing they’ve accepted the risk. Unless it’s full care full service livery with very hands off owners.

 

[shortstuff99]

This happened to me. Horse jumped into my field kicked my horse and caused £3000!!! Worth of damage, no one would admit liability and I was told it was pretty impossible so had to claim off my insurance and lump it.

 

[Nari]

I guess the gelding's owner could try claiming against the mare's insurance for 3rd party damage, but I'd be surprised if they were successful. Likewise they could try claiming against the YO's insurance, though the problem there is the YO may then ask them to leave.

 

[Snapdragon1]

Thank you all for your very valid comments much appreciated it's a difficult situation

 

[blitznbobs]

But if there’s no witnesses, you can’t prove who delivered the kick.

in civil court the burden of proof is “more likely than not” not beyond a reasonable doubt…

 

[Goldenstar]

It would all depend on who if any one was deemed negligent , it could all three parties share the blame the owners who accepted and used the fields with the poor fencing and the YOee who did not maintain them.
It could get judged to be an accident not an on purpose and the horses owner is left with the bill.
This is a situation that makes BHS gold membership such good value you could get good advice from someone experienced in this area quickly .

The truth is away from the legal responsibility the Yoer needs to mend the fences and charge more to cover the cost of managing the place well .

 

[ihatework]

I lean towards ‘that’s horses’. If I choose to turn out my horse with less than perfect fencing then I have to accept the risk something might happen.
All horses are easily insured for this sort of situation, it’s called accidental injury.