Who owns the foal

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hock5

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Last spring we tried various times and by different methods to get a mare iin foal. We were informed by vet that she wasn't after the fourth attempt. On his advise that she wasn't (by scan) we cut our losses and sold her - stipulating the price reflected she was not in foal. Now new owner has contacted us to say she id due to foal, and could she have the covering certificate.
OH considers deal null and void, and wants to recover mare and foal, other party wants to retain mare and foal - its a huge mess becoming nevermind issue with vet and his side of things.

Any advice similar expeience is welcomed.
 
The new owner will own the foal. Hopefully she will also look upon the mare as something more than a foaling machine.
 
Seeing as new owner has paid for the horse, and then paid for the keep of the mare throughout winter, not to mention any additional costs that will now occur with her being in foal (specialist feed, need for a stable etc). Then I'd imagine the ownership belongs to the new owners?

Your issue should be with the vet, not the new owners. Sadly I think this is a situation that you just have to accept. Your only hope is that the foal will not suit the new owners, or they will reach a point when they cannot keep it - and then you may be able to buy the foal from them.
 
hock5 said:
.......we cut our losses and sold her - stipulating the price reflected she was not in foal. Do you have this in writing? And even if it was, that the price "reflected" that she wan't in foal, was there mention of a correctable sale, assuming that you'd got things wrong?

Now new owner has contacted us to say she id due to foal, and could she have the covering certificate.
OH considers deal null and void, and wants to recover mare and foal, other party wants to retain mare and foal - its a huge mess becoming nevermind issue with vet and his side of things.

Any advice similar expeience is welcomed.
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I'm no legal authority, BUT, if you have a written, or provable agreement that the mare was sold with a "proviso", then she should become, once again your property, BUT, if you are to reclaim the mare, on the grounds of your agreement, then you may well, quite reasonably, be expected to pay for the mare's keep, plus the travelling costs, plus the Vet's attention, +++++!!

If you sold your mare upon your Vet's advice, then they may well prefer to make an insurance claim, and one from which you'll benefit, rather than take the hit of the poor publicity, but that's a maybe.

If the new owner of your mare asks for a CC, I'd let them have it, as all that they will need to do is apply for a D&A test, wont they?

Alec.
 
Wagtail said:
The new owner will own the foal. Hopefully she will also look upon the mare as something more than a foaling machine.
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couldn't agree more, no thought at all for the poor mare who would have to move yet again and only seems to be wanted as she is now in foal. A better thing to have done may have been to offer to meet half the costs of keeping the foal, vet fees etc, and share half the sale amount - as well as making an offer for half the mare's keep fees since they have owned her as that is a large part of getting a foal anyway. I cannot see this as the new owner's fault, they now have additional costs to meet that they were not expecting, not to mention the "hassle" of foal watch etc.
 
Well the new owner took a slight risk that she was in foal, presumably she was sold as a barren mare.
Now they want a covering certificate, perhaps you could ask for payment to part cover your costs which might give you some recompense, to be honest you sold the mare, they bought it, they could be sending you a bill for keep of mare etc etc.
You have no ownership of the foal, how could think otherwise............
 
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The mare was of excellent lines, significant value and young, the foal would be a considerable dressage prospect. Thus agreed the vets contribution was siginificant but that will be a seperate action. Due to the value of foal and covering cert - who should pay for that as its not a small sum, and the insemination fee last time round was a figure not to be sneezeed at - we would have no issue in paying her keep, vet bills, and return transportation.
 
hock5 said:
The mare was of excellent lines, significant value and young, the foal would be a considerable dressage prospect. Thus agreed the vets contribution was siginificant but that will be a seperate action. Due to the value of foal and covering cert - who should pay for that as its not a small sum, and the insemination fee last time round was a figure not to be sneezeed at - we would have no issue in paying her keep, vet bills, and return transportation.
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You seem to think you have some pecuniary interest in the foal, well sorry, but you sold it and you have to accept the loss. Any monetary transfer is entirely up to the owner of the mare and foal. If they elect not to pay for the covering certificate, then I assume that the foal will be of much lesser value because of it.
If I were them , I would be glad to own a nice mare which is a proven breeder, any demanding attitude from the vendor would make me rather antagonistic.
 
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If the deal was for a proven barren mare and sold clearly on that understanding - the deal should or would be declared null and void, to protect either side from a financial advantage or for taking advantage of the the other party.
 
Miss L Toe said:
You seem to think you have some pecuniary interest in the foal, well sorry, but you sold it and you have to accept the loss. Any monetary transfer is entirely up to the owner of the mare and foal. If they elect not to pay for the covering certificate, then I assume that the foal will be of much lesser value because of it.
If I were them , I would be glad to own a nice mare which is a proven breeder, any demanding attitude from the vendor would make me rather antagonistic.
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What was clearly sold was a barren mare!Anything else would nullify the deal.
 
I recently bought a mare (early feb) which was sold as a dry mare & 'believed not in foal' was put on the bottom of the reciept, as their usual caveat when selling.

I contacted the vendor a couple of weeks ago as I *think* I may have a BOGOF - to let them know that I *might* need a service slip in order to register a foal if this happens.

This is a pedigree mare and I'm not bothered if I do have an extra (have had foaling experience with my own in the past) - the original vendor is fine too, tho did sigh sadly as this mare's progeny have been good sellers previously.
They also said if this does go down the line & that if I do sell, then they would like 1st refusal.
However, I still have time to go as due date would be around 5th June, and am hoping mare is not as was going to get on with backing her for ride & drive :)
 
We've had a couple of mares who turned out to be in foal when we bought them, we have on both occasions kept the foal.

What were the "terms" with the stud? No foal no fee? No foal free return? No foal Oct 1st concession? Is there money due to the stud? Have the stud issed a covering cert. yet? Do you have it? It depends what the circumstances are and I suspect that the mares owner could get proof of breeding any way. What a pity you sold her, hindsight is a great thing. I think the foal belongs to the mares owner.
 
hock5 said:
yes mare was sold on basis of being barren
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How was this worded?

If I was buying a mare to ride from a stud I would want exactly that warranty, because I would not want a foal, or the loss of use of the mare. Could it read as protection for the buyer, not the seller?

Unless it was specifically worded that the sale was null and void should the mare produce a live foal or mentioned a specific sum of money to be paid should she produce a foal, then I don't think you have a leg to stand on legally. It is not the buyer's fault that you sold her a foal she did not ask for or expect.

Morally - I think if you were so desperate to hedge your bets you should have hung on to the mare for longer until a pregancy diagnosis was irrefutable. Surely everyone involved in breeding understands that scans and pregnancy tests can be wrong? Personally, I hope your vet's insurer doesn't pay out, it will just put up vet fees for everyone else if vets are sued for making the best judgement that they can with the information that they have on the day.

How many weeks was the foetus when the mare was sold?
 
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Kaylum said:
I would be suing the vets tbh.
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It is a common mistake. The mare that is about to foal at my yard was scanned as not in foal and so returned to the stud in time for her next season. She was there a week and during this time scanned for ovulation, at which time the embryo was discovered. The owner did not sue the vets for the added expense of her livery whilst at the stud.

The OP should have waited a month and had the mare rescanned before selling.
 
Working with animals only the fact that hey will at sometime die is guaranteed no test is 100 percent, I would say put down to experience and new owner now owns foal and all costs risks involved.
 
hock5 said:
yes mare was sold on basis of being barren
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hock5 said:
What was clearly sold was a barren mare!Anything else would nullify the deal.
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I don't think it works that way. If you are sold something which turns out to be less than the vendor said, you have a claim. If it turns out to be more than they said, they cannot simply take it back unless there was an explicit statement in the contract that they could do so.

Someone who sells a painting from the attic and warrants it as "Not a Rembrandt" does not have the right to recover the painting if it is subsequently discovered to be a Rembrandt unless it was sold with that explicitly stated.

We need to know the wording of the contract that was struck.
 
I am sure hock5 you have been around long enough to know that these tests can go wrong. If you have a written agreement that you are selling a barren mare, BUT if she is found to be in-foal has to be returned, then you might have re-course.

How long did you wait before selling her & what have the new owners been doing with her (as they thought she was barren)? What have you offered the new owners as way of compensation? There is only part of the story here not sure how anyone can really advise.
 
Sounds from the first post, as though the wording was 'price reflects the fact that the mare is not in foal'. In which case the buyer is not obliged to return the mare and or foal.
 
I am sorry but vet is supposed to be highly educated, experienced in what he making a judgement on, unfortunately this is not his first time making this call regards one of our mares. Also if his judgement is wrong, he then (his manner is quiet arrogant) re-starts or starts a program of regumate/prostaglandin to bring them into season, so if he did get it wrong, it would abort the fetus in any case. Now concerned as to vets general competencies!
 
well new owner, left her in herd of other mares, waiting till spring to put her in foal, at some point last year new owners daugther tried to ride her and found her too up hill for her so was never ridden again. Again we offered to buy mare back, and transport her home ourselves. Even discussed paying any costs livery etc - but although door not closed on discussion there was little encouragement to discuss more with new owner
 
Hock5 please answer the two important questions:

- how many weeks was the mare in foal when the scan failed to pick it up

- what was the exact wording of the contract that was struck

?


You tried to buy the mare back when you still thought she was barren? This is reading more and more like you just made a sale which you have since regretted. Sorry, but what's done is done and they own the mare. Let it go.
 
I agree with others that say the foal belongs to the new owner.
TBH, you sound as if you're not short of pennies (which is neither here nor there but it does make you sound greedy) that you are miffed that you're losing out on a foal of your choosing rather than congratulating the new owner on their luck at your expense; I can't see why you can't suck it up as a mistake on your part for selling her too early before the pregnancy was apparent and send them the CC.
The only person you should be pursuing is the vet, not the new owner as the vet was the catalyst of you selling the mare in the first place.
 
- Unless there was a very clear stipulation in the contract along the lines of "should the mare be in foal, the foal belonging to the seller" I don't see how the seller would have a claim in the foal. Not the buyer's fault that the seller/seller's vet made a mistake ? Hard to comment on this unless we know the exact wording of the contract.

- If the mare was sold as barren, and turned out to be in foal, then IMO it is the buyer that has reason for complaint here, as they did not get what they bargained for. They may have lost a competition season for the mare?

- On the other hand, I don't think the buyer has any right to the covering certificate, since the covering was not part of the deal...

This could be the basis of an amicable settlement - What if the seller would offer to hand over the covering certificate against (some of) the money they lost on the stud fee? If not, the buyer would still have the "free" foal but not the papers.

I'd also try to get an amicable arrangement with the vet, if the seller is happy with their work in genera and it was just a one-off mistake. Rather than sue them, explain the situation to them and ask if they can give you a good deal on this year's stud work in return?
 
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