Who you are?

[Navalgem]

Do you think at events like gradings and BEF Futurity Classes that which stud bread the youngster/the owner affects whether the animal's grading/premiums etc? I know quite often the handler/producer does, just wondered what else (other than the animal itself of course) affects the results.

 

[christine48]

I think some studs are very good at marketing themselve's and their stock. Haven't much experience with BEF Futurity classes, however in Young Event Horse classes it certainly helps if you have a'name' on board.

 

[springfallstud]

Yes i think with certain British judges a "name" helps for sure and that is why when mine have been under foriegn judges i feel the result is more fair. I also show dogs and it is the same in that world and love it when the Germans are over!

 

[Anastasia]

I prefer having my youngstock and horses graded by the foreign judges, feel its much fairer as they owe nobody anything and I value their opinions much more.

 

[Shilasdair]

I think name prefixes on the youngstock can affect results...too.
Although, having been privy to a few judging decisions, they do their damnedest to be completely fair regardless of the owner's etc - haven't seen any nepotism
S

 

[Damien]

Oh I am not so sure that is always the case, I think foreign judges are just as easily influenced but perhaps more so by prefered bloodlines and those that they would like to see promoted than by faces.

 

[Ciss]

It certainly makes absolutely no difference to the results in the BEF Futurity, which has a panel of judges and also positively positions itself as encouraging the 'smaller' breeder to take part. The evaluators used are also across a wide range of stud books and are also very well aware of the skills that successful studs use to present their stock in the best possible light and have the ability to see through this. OTOH the top studs are usually the top studs just because of the fact that they have the best animals, in which case it is only right that they get put up if the animal merits it.

Foreign judges at gradings are not only there to mintain the rules and standards of the mother stud book (as far as they can bearing in mind the standard of the animals they have to judge) but they also have two further main agendas, namely to promote / market their own stud book as best they can and to promote / market that stud books best UK customers / users of the current top fashionable stallion as well as they can. How much this affexts the final results from event to event and year to year is debateable but it is one of the reasons why The Royal changes its foreign judge to one from a different stud book every year and also why shows such as the BD YH& B champs use foreign judges only for the Supreme in-hand championship etc as this ensures that (as far as possible) all breeds and breeders get an equal chance of success

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
Foreign judges at gradings are not only there to mintain the rules and standards of the mother stud book (as far as they can bearing in mind the standard of the animals they have to judge) but they also have two further main agendas, namely to promote / market their own stud book as best they can and to promote / market that stud books best UK customers / users of the current top fashionable stallion as well as they can.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very fair point, however it has also been noted that the best animals bred acheiving the highest marks at breed society gradings are not always those from thier own stud book nor their preffered fashionable bloodlines. A huge leap forwards would be to have the animals presented blind, with no information on the owners or bloodlines given to the judges who must then assess the horses on what he sees infront of him/her.

One of the main advantages I feel in using foreign judges is that they have the experience and training at a much higher level than we can offer in the UK as the sheer volume of stock that they look at each year is non comparible to what we can offer here in the UK. They are familiar with looking at the very best the world has ever produced, and have often bred and produced their own horses to International level including stallions that have passed the most rigerous scrutiny hence the reason they are the worlds leading studbooks. They have undergone at least four years of training including the study of the biomechanics and skeletal structure of the horse and have based their calculations on what works through years of collecting data e.g the linear scoring system that the Dutch use for identifying which conformational traits produce the best horses.

I have also found that the openess of the assesments i.e openly providing a critique of each horse presented for grading exceddingly educational for the breeder and often casts aside any beliefs of the disillusioned participants.

The other advantage of a breed society grading is that the result of the evaluation/grading can influence the horses status within its studbook.

Personally I feel the BEF evaluations would benefit from outside expertise, some fresh faces, if it doesn't I fear that British Breeding will continue to go round in the same circles it has done for many years. I would love to see it work but yet have my reservations.

 

[Navalgem]

[ QUOTE ]

A huge leap forwards would be to have the animals presented blind, with no information on the owners or bloodlines given to the judges who must then assess the horses on what he sees infront of him/her.

[/ QUOTE ]

The best idea I've heard in years, removes all biases according to handler/stud/breeding etc. Only leaving personal prefs with conformation/type/movement

etc. However not knowing breeding (particulaly with gradings) could mean that a 'wildcard' stallion or mare could be graded and no-one has any idea what kind of stock it might throw, or do you go with the thought that if the animal itself performs then it's offspring will. (Dont think I'm being eliteist - I'm talking top-level animals intended for top level competition).


[ QUOTE ]
I have also found that the openess of the assesments i.e openly providing a critique of each horse presented for grading exceddingly educational for the breeder and often casts aside any beliefs of the disillusioned participants.

[/ QUOTE ]

Excepting the AES who don't give either a scoresheet or feedback unless asked for and then give different accounts of the same animal to two different people....... Nor did a 4yo FEI dressage test exist

*roll eyes*

However I do think the information made available by the shb(gb) for example, is excellent not just for disillusioning people but also so they can benefit from the judges expertise and learn from it.

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
The best idea I've heard in years, removes all biases according to handler/stud/breeding etc. Only leaving personal prefs with conformation/type/movement etc. However not knowing breeding (particulaly with gradings) could mean that a 'wildcard' stallion or mare could be graded and no-one has any idea what kind of stock it might throw, or do you go with the thought that if the animal itself performs then it's offspring will

[/ QUOTE ]

In deed however if the studbook has a means of measuring the quality of the offspring that a stallion produces then the stallion can either have his stallion license revoked if his offspring are poor but if he produces the quality in his offspring, can be promoted.......

Some studbooks do this and some don't.

A good breeding stallion is not necessarily one that is successful in competition himself but a sire that can produce progeny that are successful in competition and this should be observed.

[ QUOTE ]
However I do think the information made available by the shb(gb) for example, is excellent not just for disillusioning people but also so they can benefit from the judges expertise and learn from it

[/ QUOTE ]


I was really impressed by the SHB (GB) mare grading, the judges were open, communicative, presented me with two sets of scores sheets immediately afterwards and even asked what I thought of their comments and if their assessment was on a par with her assessment in Switzerland, the score sheets were broken down into individual areas of conformation, head set, neck back, croup etc.. the negative comments about her areas of weakness were spot on, all in all a fantastic experience and well worth every penny!

 

[springfallstud]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Foreign judges at gradings are not only there to mintain the rules and standards of the mother stud book (as far as they can bearing in mind the standard of the animals they have to judge) but they also have two further main agendas, namely to promote / market their own stud book as best they can and to promote / market that stud books best UK customers / users of the current top fashionable stallion as well as they can.

[/ QUOTE ]

A very fair point, however it has also been noted that the best animals bred acheiving the highest marks at breed society gradings are not always those from thier own stud book nor their preffered fashionable bloodlines. A huge leap forwards would be to have the animals presented blind, with no information on the owners or bloodlines given to the judges who must then assess the horses on what he sees infront of him/her.

One of the main advantages I feel in using foreign judges is that they have the experience and training at a much higher level than we can offer in the UK as the sheer volume of stock that they look at each year is non comparible to what we can offer here in the UK. They are familiar with looking at the very best the world has ever produced, and have often bred and produced their own horses to International level including stallions that have passed the most rigerous scrutiny hence the reason they are the worlds leading studbooks. They have undergone at least four years of training including the study of the biomechanics and skeletal structure of the horse and have based their calculations on what works through years of collecting data e.g the linear scoring system that the Dutch use for identifying which conformational traits produce the best horses.

I have also found that the openess of the assesments i.e openly providing a critique of each horse presented for grading exceddingly educational for the breeder and often casts aside any beliefs of the disillusioned participants.

The other advantage of a breed society grading is that the result of the evaluation/grading can influence the horses status within its studbook.

Personally I feel the BEF evaluations would benefit from outside expertise, some fresh faces, if it doesn't I fear that British Breeding will continue to go round in the same circles it has done for many years. I would love to see it work but yet have my reservations.

[/ QUOTE ]

ITA

 

[Navalgem]

[ QUOTE ]

A good breeding stallion is not necessarily one that is successful in competition himself but a sire that can produce progeny that are successful in competition and this should be observed.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree, I think I saw a photograph of Furioso (I think - it was one of the old tb's) and I thought 'yikes', but look at what it's produced. Cor De La Bryere wasn't considered stallion material either but 'would make a useful gelding' and look at what his stock inherit....

I like the idea of a stallion getting up/down graded with regards to how well it's offspring do. However how would this work in the case of a stallion that is at stud late in life and has no/few progeny competing before it's death? Yet the one younster that is competing (just) is phenomenal and the other youngstock are showing exceptional promise? Also what studbooks are doing this? I've only really looked at AES/SHB(GB) and started looking at the Britsh Sporthorse and SSH.

I too was really impressed with SHB(GB) mare grading sheet, it was wonderful the way it was broken down into sections and was useful in helping to choose the right stallion.

 

[Damien]

The KWPN will strike a stallion off its stallion register if the stallion does not meet the satisfactory criteria that it demands of a stallion.
The German Verbands I "think" once a stallion has Approved status remains approved for life regardless of how well he does afterwards or the quality of the offspring that he produces - will stand corrected, anyone?
The SSH will not award a stallion with lifetime Approved status UNTIL he has satisfied all the criteria outlined in the studbook guidelines, quality of progeny, fertility, and success in competition.
The French also allow stallions to be promoted from one book to another on the basis of the success of his progenys' success in sport at the age of four. Mainly applied to foerign and non approved stallions.
Welcome information on others.

 

[Ciss]

Opie wrote (sorry my editing facility is playing up):

'... it has also been noted that the best animals bred acheiving the highest marks at breed society gradings are not always those from thier own stud book nor their preffered fashionable bloodlines. A huge leap forwards would be to have the animals presented blind, with no information on the owners or bloodlines given to the judges who must then assess the horses on what he sees infront of him/her.

Well, they might not be from their own studbooks or the most fashionble lines in their own breed but Stud Book Directors (who are usually the ones who do the gradings abroad) do not work in isolation, but very much in the real world of increasing internationalisation of bloodlines. Most of them go to each others gradings (eight in a row from 3 different countries and six different stud books sitting behind me in Denmark is the record number that I have noted so far!) and they all know whats hot and who is using what where. If they didn't know that and were not able to apply that information to their own studbooks they would soon loose their jobs and much as the advocates of the comepting daughter and branch stud books operating in the UK might have us believe, insularity is not the name of the game -- although obviously positive marketing is

Opie then wrote:
' A huge leap forwards would be to have the animals presented blind, with no information on the owners or bloodlines given to the judges who must then assess the horses on what he sees infront of him/her.'

No, actually a *massive* step backwards and totally in line with the Hunter in hand and SHBGB sports horse showing (not grading) classes we still have where the judgenent is totally on the day and is on phenotype only. Any serious breeding operation, be it stud book or national breeding plan, must always make sure that genotype plays a key role in selection of breeding stock and even more in progeny assessment becuase the offspring a stallion prodices are not only the result of his in put but that of his ancestors and of the dam and her ancestors. For instance, when you know before hand that a correct stallion has a grandsire with a notably offset cannon (or a tendency to throw that) then (particularly if the mare's family has that tendency, however rare, too) you won't be suprised if it comes out in suceeding generations. Only a in-depth long-term knowledge of pedigrees and performance, as well as grading rules, can teach you that sort of thing which is why it takes so long to develop and identify those people that have that ability.

Then Opie goes on to say:

'One of the main advantages I feel in using foreign judges is that they have the experience and training at a much higher level than we can offer in the UK as the sheer volume of stock that they look at each year is non comparible to what we can offer here in the UK. They are familiar with looking at the very best the world has ever produced, and have often bred and produced their own horses to International level including stallions that have passed the most rigerous scrutiny hence the reason they are the worlds leading studbooks. They have undergone at least four years of training including the study of the biomechanics and skeletal structure of the horse and have based their calculations on what works through years of collecting data e.g the linear scoring system that the Dutch use for identifying which conformational traits produce the best horses..'

What is sad is that, excerpt for the BHHS which actively encourages its knowledgeable breeder members to attend the Breed Familiarisation Course in Germany on a regular basis and then develops their skills as inspectors and grading judges under the Hann Verband guidance, to my knowledge none of the other non or daughter studbooks operating here seem willing to involve UK breeders /raisers as potential judge candidates in their schemes. This, in turn, naturally also limits a possible route for candidate judges for things such as the Futurity scheme, who are expected to have this background and embedded knowledge before they start, so we all seem to be caught in a vicious circle here.

And Opie closes by saying:
' I have also found that the openess of the assesments i.e openly providing a critique of each horse presented for grading exceddingly educational for the breeder and often casts aside any beliefs of the disillusioned participants.

The other advantage of a breed society grading is that the result of the evaluation/grading can influence the horses status within its studbook.

Personally I feel the BEF evaluations would benefit from outside expertise, some fresh faces, if it doesn't I fear that British Breeding will continue to go round in the same circles it has done for many years. I would love to see it work but yet have my reservations. '

Perhaps you have not been to one recently? I am not sure what you mean by fresh faces or who should be changed and also how something that has only been going for 6 years, and in its present form actually only for 2 years, can be described as having done anything (especially going round in circles) for many years. Obviously as the BEF assessments are based upon potential for competition rather than stud book value, scoring for things such as masculinity and femininity canniot be relevant as even the ugliest mare could be a top class performer if not a breeding prospect (as could the prettiest stallion) but in order to succeed they do need to be of top class conformation (especially lower limb alingnment), have a manageable (but not in any way dull) temperament, be veterinarily sound (and show no evidence of previous vet problems that may create issues in the future)and have a pedigree that at least shows some indication of inherited talent for a particular discipline. Surely anyone breeding without regard to those criteria as the main factor in their breeding programme should not be breeding and the verbal critique read out on the loudspeaker during the BEF Futurity after every animal is seen and scored *but before it leaves the arena* addresses just these issues, and especially the need for all breeder education that needs to take place as regards issues of bloodline selection, presentation and future management.

Finally I would like to ask just one question. Knowing from many WBFSH events, meetings etc just how competitive stud books are with each other (using the successful bloodlines developed by another successful stud book is a key element in this of course, hence the visits to other gradings), exactly why would any 'foreign' judge be altruistic enough to take a major role in developing a breeding plan for an unrelated stud book in another country, especially bearing in mind that his own stud book's (and he usually is a he) success in the WBFSH rankings is what keeps him in his job? Obviously, clinics such as that given by Johann Knapp at Ponderosa (in fact any critique by Johan Knapp is very useful in general terms and the system of paces and jumping assessment developed over 25 years in Sweden by Ingvar Frederickson and Jan-Olaf Wannius and incorproated (under their gudiance) into the ridden part of the Futurity do play a vital role and in such an sensitive international situation, ideal though it might be, I feel it would be extremely insensitive to expect any more of them.

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
[I was really impressed by the SHB (GB) mare grading, the judges were open, communicative, presented me with two sets of scores sheets immediately afterwards and even asked what I thought of their comments and if their assessment was on a par with her assessment in Switzerland, the score sheets were broken down into individual areas of conformation, head set, neck back, croup etc.. the negative comments about her areas of weakness were spot on, all in all a fantastic experience and well worth every penny!

[/ QUOTE ]

Well, its nice to know that you think that the system that I was one of the two the main consultants in developing still works I'm not a SHBGB judge and never have been, so how they make the decsions they make is up to them, but at least the sytem of mark breakdown plus critique is still fundamental to what they do as it was quite a culture shock for them when it was first introduced (it was adopted to help them get them WBFSH membership, someting I am fairly conversant with!).

One thing that they don't do -- and sadly are unlikely to as it would probably shake too many people off their perches) is to issue a verbal critique stallion by stallion either during or at the end of the proceedings, but that is still at step too far for most of the studbooks in the Uk, unlike the Futurity!

 

[springfallstud]

Thanks for that Ciss, it all makes a lot of sense! I was planning to do the BEF with 2 foals but had problems and couldnt get there but will try again next year. I know it can be clickly aboard and some v bent judging goes on there but i guess we all feel at times they are more knowaledgeable (sp) at the end of the day they are the top of the game imo whether it be Horse's or GSD's.

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
Well, they might not be from their own studbooks or the most fashionble lines in their own breed but Stud Book Directors (who are usually the ones who do the gradings abroad) do not work in isolation, but very much in the real world of increasing internationalisation of bloodlines.

Most of them go to each others gradings (eight in a row from 3 different countries and six different stud books sitting behind me in Denmark is the record number that I have noted so far!) and they all know whats hot and who is using what where.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed they do and its very sad to note that not one of those involved are from a British studbook, so one must therefore ask why Britian is not inlcuded in this political network, afterall we British make such "wonderful" politicians.

However if such animosity is felt by our British representatives such as is detected in this thread then it comes as no surprise as to why it is such.

[ QUOTE ]
.... insularity is not the name of the game -- although obviously positive marketing is

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes and again it is such a shame that we Brits do not have the same drive and initiative to promote ourselves in the same way using the same diplomactic tequniques and professional expertise!

[ QUOTE ]
and totally in line with the Hunter in hand and SHBGB sports horse showing (not grading) classes we still have where the judgenent is totally on the day and is on phenotype only.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed but we not discussing the British Showing scene we are discussing Gradings and evaluations and if you feel so strongly that Foreign judges come to Britain to manipulate results in such a way as to purely market and promote their own invested interest then by not providing paperwork would cast aside any disilussioned beliefs that people like yourself may have.

[ QUOTE ]
Any serious breeding operation, be it stud book or national breeding plan, must always make sure that genotype plays a key role in selection of breeding stock and even more in progeny assessment becuase the offspring a stallion prodices are not only the result of his in put but that of his ancestors and of the dam and her ancestors.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hence the reason why any serious breeding program would strive to carefully monitor the quality of offspring produced prior to granting a stallion life time breeding status and encourage breeders to breed from mares that also produce the desired model by rigerously assessing stock over a prolonged period.

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, when you know before hand that a correct stallion has a grandsire with a notably offset cannon (or a tendency to throw that) then (particularly if the mare's family has that tendency, however rare, too) you won't be suprised if it comes out in suceeding generations.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what does this have to do with the BEF futurity scheme? This is the role of the studbook. It is unlikely that the BEF evaluations will view suffcient numbers from the same sire but only a very small selection from a massive gene pool.

[ QUOTE ]
For instance, when you know before hand that a correct stallion has a grandsire with a notably offset cannon (or a tendency to throw that) then (particularly if the mare's family has that tendency, however rare, too) you won't be suprised if it comes out in suceeding generations. Only a in-depth long-term knowledge of pedigrees and performance, as well as grading rules, can teach you that sort of thing which is why it takes so long to develop and identify those people that have that ability.

[/ QUOTE ]

the above reads as if you are justifying the need for BEF judges to know first hand the pedigrees in order that they can mark them down?

My own understanding is that no horse is perfect, that all breeding stock must be viewed as a "whole" and that if the overall picture and correctness of conformation and harmony of movement and/or jumping ability outweighs some minor "defect" then the horses strengths should not be overlooked and cast aside and that is very much the philosophy of our European neighbours, whilst in Britain we have for many years been obsessed with finding individual faults and condeming a horse for it. - Personally an offset cannon bone would not be of any concern to me as firmly believe that whilst there is a predispoition to hereditary defects being passed on, many lower limb deviations are often influenced by neglected hoof care during rapid growth of the foal / incorrect development whilst in utero and or by trauma to a limb during growth. Weight bearing on an injured leg over a prolonged period of time can also cause limb deviation, so lets not get too obsessed with such issues and save that for a rainy day.

[ QUOTE ]
What is sad is that, excerpt for the BHHS which actively encourages its knowledgeable breeder members to attend the Breed Familiarisation Course in Germany on a regular basis and then develops their skills as inspectors and grading judges under the Hann Verband guidance, to my knowledge none of the other non or daughter studbooks operating here seem willing to involve UK breeders /raisers as potential judge candidates in their schemes.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes totally agree, trying to finance such training is a challenge and disheartening.

[ QUOTE ]
This, in turn, naturally also limits a possible route for candidate judges for things such as the Futurity scheme, who are expected to have this background and embedded knowledge before they start, so we all seem to be caught in a vicious circle here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Indeed if one pays for a service, one does have an expectancy that one is paying for expertise .

So the question arises, are the BEF prepared to invest in such training from the funds generated from the scheme in order that we can have our British Bred horses assessed by inspectors that are as equally well trained and experienced, in order that we can firmly believe that our horses are being measured by the same yardstick as our EU neighbours??

[ QUOTE ]
Perhaps you have not been to one recently?

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes I have, one of the first, with an open mind and every intention of supporting the philosophy, however my experience left me somewhat bemused and we shall leave it at that. Rumblings from fellow colleagues who also attended, wholeheartedly, were also left bewildered when their initial first premiums were revoked and replaced with third premiums at the finals last year. Once again this made me question if indeed the evaluations were and in your words:

"totally in line with the Hunter in hand and SHBGB sports horse showing (not grading) where the judgenent is totally on the day and is on phenotype only.

Finally I would like to ask just one question

[ QUOTE ]
why would any 'foreign' judge be altruistic enough to take a major role in developing a breeding plan for an unrelated stud book in another country

[/ QUOTE ]

That is not the role of a hired grader/inspector, they are merely employed for exactly the same reason that in any realm of business one employs outside expertise, to learn, develop and progress.....

If the BEF can achieve what they set out to do and do it on thier own and bring British Sport Horse Breeding on a par with the leading stud books then Bravo!

 

[Ciss]

As Opie obviously considers herself to have a far wider and more generous view of the foreign stud book situation than I (but then although I can't claim to have gone to thousands of gradings as I only go to about 5 or 6 events abroad every year. often in a PR capacity for the stud book concerned <ROFL&gt, perhaps the forum would be interested in the answer to a few questions that have been troubling me for a while -- and that are also ones I have been asked to answer many times both here and abroad (usually as the only friendly Brit present ) and have failed to, but not becuase I have not searched for the answers in a wide variety of sources. They are:

1 In all this high quality, progeny-led constant re-assessment of stallions situaion that you so rightly promote, where do Listed stallions sit, especially those that insist on describing themselves as graded?

2 If even only one system is allowed to flourish in the UK in which (so I have heard) a stallion only has to turn up and score 50% or more in order to be added to the List, what sort of standard does that indicate, especially when Listed stallions are given permission to cover alongside fully graded stallions?

3 Isn't blaming the insularity, xenophiobia and hostility of British breeders and judges for our current lack of high status as a sports horse breeding nation somewhat inconsistent when such lax breeding rules are allowed to continue, even when the 'selection' process takes place under 'foreign' judges, especially as these judges would never accept stallions of such a standard in their own home stud books?

4 How can we ever be considered to be on any sort of serious breeding nation, however skilled our graders (even visiting foreign ones) and knowledgable our breeders are, and however successful such schemes as the BEF Futurity might be in the long run (regardless of whether the judges know the identity of the animals before them or not) if such anomalies are introduced -- and allowed to continue -- in the teeth of much disapproval by WBFSH members?

Just interested in views on this.

 

[springfallstud]

Wow Opie you should go and work with the BEF?! fastinating reading

 

[springfallstud]

Just saw your reply Ciss and this is now a little above my head, well was at the start LMFAO, i think it is great to be able to throw this around and some very valid points imo have been made on both sides, which i and others reading this will learn from, it is interesting to see how it really is, very easy for us to knock judges bla bla but of course it all runs deeper than that and watching my mum judge at international level in dogs for many years sometimes you just cannot do the right thing for everyone!

 

[Damien]

[ QUOTE ]
In all this high quality, progeny-led constant re-assessment of stallions situaion that you so rightly promote, where do Listed stallions sit, especially those that insist on describing themselves as graded?

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess you could ask John Whitaker directly as Cruisings Mickey Finn is now competing very successfully with him.....
and currently BSJA Silver...

Tartan Special is competing at FEI level in Dubai and is due for re-assesment, I believe his listed status was only given as the pedigree information supplied at that time fell short of stud book requirements but has since been supplied by his breeder and is due for re-assesment next year.. providing that his progeny can also be viewed then chances are he will be promoted.

Honeybrook Crosby now retired to stud is a successful International Grade A and has sired a series of top class jumping ponies.

Pall Mall H has had a superb career to date.. and produced some very nice foals.

Di Niro is competing in Germany and Otis is coming up through the ranks with his first foals showing great promise and quality... winning best foal at the North of The Border Foal show.

and last years grading report revealed that listed stallions were producing consitantly high scoring foals and first premium progeny.... so I guess that is where some "sit"

And for the sceptics, let us not forget that these first premium progeny could very well have become Main Stud Book KWPN stock had things not moved in a different direction........ so you are quite right, whilst they may not have wanted to accept the stallions they were more than happy to accept the premiun graded progeny that the above stallions were producing.....

 

[Ciss]

[ QUOTE ]
And for the sceptics, let us not forget that these first premium progeny could very well have become Main Stud Book KWPN stock had things not moved in a different direction........ so you are quite right, whilst they may not have wanted to accept the stallions they were more than happy to accept the premiun graded progeny that the above stallions were producing.....

[/ QUOTE ]

Just a question: how 'moved in a different direction' ? Did people finaly realise that animals with KWPN reg B papers were not and never could be entered into any of the main KWPN studbooks? Sad some foal buyers who mistakenly purchase foals by ungraded stallions out of KWPN mares don't realise that the KWPN papers they get with such foals are really a dead end <sigh>

Also have heard a rumour that NRPS judges rather than KWPN judges are officiating at the next SSH grading. Anyone else heard that?

 

[Damien]

Dead end?

Not at all, KWPN Reg B RP fillies when bred to KWPN approved stallions have their progeny entered into the VB (main) book providing they meet the three generation pedigree requirements. Why do you consider this as a dead end? Or were you simply not aware of the KWPN studbook guidelines?

When KWPN REG B fillies are bred to other EU approved stallions recognised by the KWPN their progeny can be registered into the A register (foreign Stallions).

The only disadvantage is that a KWPN Reg B colt cannot be presented at a KWPN stallion inspection or Keuring in Holland only.

But lets remain realistic and keep things in perspective,

ALL colts sired by ANY British licensed or approved stallion can only obtain Reg B papers as the KWPN do not recognise any of the British stallions other than ISH stallions, not just those by the SSH.

Then again I see this of very little importance as cannot imagine anyone purchasing a KWPN reg B colt with the expectation of presenting him at a KWPN stallion inspection and would hope that anyone selling progeny By a non KWPN approved stallion which is registered KWPN Reg B would inform their clients of such.

Let us not forget also that within the UK the British studbooks do cater for KWPN Reg B colts as stallion prospects and can be presented at the majority of gradings held by UK studbooks, some cater for their paperwork in different ways and request that the stallion obtain higher marks.

All set aside purchasers of KWPN Reg B papered animals can however be secure in the knowledge that within the UK they can present Reg B colts or fillies at a UK/KWPN Keuring and are reassured that KWPN Reg B fillies purchased can have their future progeny registered VB RP if that is the route they wish to take at a later date.

I think you will also find that many

"delighted"

buyers are well informed of all of the facts prior to purchase!

so your point is?

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Also have heard a rumour that NRPS judges rather than KWPN judges are officiating at the next SSH grading. Anyone else heard that?

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Rumour? It is a well publiced fact!

The SSH have simply declined to enter into a license agreement with the KWPN' which stipulated:

• Both KWPN and SSH want to promote the breeding of KWPN horses and to improve the standard of quality of KWPN horses in Scotland....

The SSH has an open stud book policy which caters for all Breeds and Types of Sport Horse, Scottish breeders use a variety of EU approved stallions and a variety of breeding mares, not only KWPN thus the SSH declined to sign the license agreement and the KWPN and the SSH will now operate independently within the UK allowing breeders to draw the benefits from both organisations.

<<<even bigger sigh>>>