Why are certain judges unfair ?

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horse.love92

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Yesterday I took my coloured into a coloured class . He was in pristine condition , did a beautiful individual show , cantered on the correct leg and we didn't even get placed ( 9 people in my class) the horses that were placed cantered - 3 cantered on the wrong leg , were a little scruffy , one was bay with one splodge of white on it and still had its winter coat . Yet my horse was impeccable and even many spectators did not understand why I was not placed ! My friend said the show I did was the best of them all and she's very honest.

Later on I went in hand with a different judge and came 2nd out of 9 !!

I'm starting to think showing is completely unfair
 
horse.love92 said:
I'm starting to think showing is completely unfair
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Of course it is, it's one person's view of your horse. Maybe she took an instant dislike to you, maybe she doesn't like your coloured's markings, maybe she is jealous of your transport...
 
Why is it unfair when you don't do well but not when you do? ;) The fact is, you are asking someone's opinion and, as such, not everyone is going to agree all the time. I figure at the end of your life you have the right number of prizes, you just don't always have them for the right things. :)

I've been on all sides of this, judging included. I was once accosted by the father of a girl who was sure she should have won. She was, in fact, the best rider but she had made a simple mistake early, uncorrected mistake early in the class that ruined her chance, at least in my opinion
Tbf, once I explained the father calmed down, although his daughter did not! I was glad they asked as otherwise they would have gone home with completely the wrong idea. She did win another class, btw.
 
Sadly showing like dressage is subjective so is always going to appear unfair. I go showing and dont really care where I come we have been champion and last in the same week at county level it just depends on the judges honest opinion on that day. Largely due to personal preference too your horse may have a pretty head and the judge likes a workmanlike one or vice versa. Just do it for the fun and pleasure of knowing you have perfected your show and turnout if you win a rosette it is a bonus but moaning about it will only make you miserable

I find Dressage even more discriminatory but a lot feel as it is a point system it is fair I can assure you it isnt in my experience as a hairy veteran 13.1 pony with loads of experience and metronome rhythm was beaten comprehensively by one that had no rhythm and was an expensive warmblood type it moved but erratically and at intro and prelim it should be rhythm and obedience that win
 
windand rain said:
Sadly showing like dressage is subjective so is always going to appear unfair. I go showing and dont really care where I come we have been champion and last in the same week at county level it just depends on the judges honest opinion on that day. Largely due to personal preference too your horse may have a pretty head and the judge likes a workmanlike one or vice versa. Just do it for the fun and pleasure of knowing you have perfected your show and turnout if you win a rosette it is a bonus but moaning about it will only make you miserable

I find Dressage even more discriminatory but a lot feel as it is a point system it is fair I can assure you it isnt in my experience as a hairy veteran 13.1 pony with loads of experience and metronome rhythm was beaten comprehensively by one that had no rhythm and was an expensive warmblood type it moved but erratically and at intro and prelim it should be rhythm and obedience that win
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This. There may have been many reasons why the other horses placed higher than yours - some fair, and some not. If you want to go showing, I'm afraid you need to grow a thicker skin (which is why I wouldn't take my boy showing - he's gorgeous to me, but I'd need to accept that other people wouldn't/don't agree - if the judge just doesn't like greys, we'd be done for ;)).

P
 
On the flip side . . . years ago, my daughter took our share pony into a maxi cob show (mare had been put on the lorry purely as a companion for the other two horses who were competing - and the other two riders entered Em as a thank you for being so helpful with their two). Em was wearing all the wrong gear, Nell was brushed but not washed, tack was wrong. The judge really, really liked Nell and really wanted to place her, but felt he couldn't b/c it wouldn't have been fair to the other entries (who were all turned out within an inch of their lives). He said Nell gave him the best ride all day . . . but she didn't place. Fair enough.

That's judging/showing . . . you just have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

P
 
The only person who is really happy after a showing class is the one who won. You are showing in front of a judge and the "judge's decision is final." Who know what each one is looking for in their winner? Some will overlook a mistake because they love other things about one exhibit, for another judge a mistake in the show - wrong canter strike off for instance - would put the horse down the line.

You enter, take part and be happy with the result, whatever it is. Rejoice when you do well, and just accept it if it isn't your day.
 
Yes at the end of the day I would've understood if I had made a mistake but I hadn't. One horse bolted off and it came 2nd ! I think they took an instant dislike to me , probably cause I beat her daughter in jumping classes at other shows ! Haha
 
Orangehorse said:
The only person who is really happy after a showing class is the one who won. You are showing in front of a judge and the "judge's decision is final." Who know what each one is looking for in their winner? Some will overlook a mistake because they love other things about one exhibit, for another judge a mistake in the show - wrong canter strike off for instance - would put the horse down the line.

You enter, take part and be happy with the result, whatever it is. Rejoice when you do well, and just accept it if it isn't your day.
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I agree with most of that just not the first statement I am happy not to win if the other horses are better than mine and I am very fair about that I was showing this weekend at county show and was fine about the fact mine didnt deserve to win. Showed with a friends colt he is 2 in a stallion class she didnt expect to win and was very happy with her placing too
 
windand rain said:
I agree with most of that just not the first statement I am happy not to win if the other horses are better than mine and I am very fair about that I was showing this weekend at county show and was fine about the fact mine didnt deserve to win. Showed with a friends colt he is 2 in a stallion class she didnt expect to win and was very happy with her placing too
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Some judges ARE unfair - they can't help it - we all have personal preferences and it's inevitable that those creep in sometimes.

A few weeks ago, while Kal warmed up with Z, I watched a dressage test performed by a rider with very "busy" hands . . . she wasn't just sawing, she was independently rowing - however, her very lovely, genuine horse just ignored her, kept his head still and went round like an angel. Z rode Kal with impeccably quiet hands, but Kal is still quite green and was unsteady in his head. Of course I felt that Z did a better job b/c she rode "properly" - I have my own prejudices after all ;) . . . but what the judge saw was a nice still head, rather than nice still hands and the other combination beat us by some margin. That's dressage - and showing.

P
 
You say your horse was pristine and cantered on the right leads etc, but does he have flawless conformation? If he's poorly put together, or blemished, that will easily explain why you can't fathom your placing.
 
Showing is the subjective opinion of judges. In a coloured class, honestly, for the limited pictures I seen I would be tempted to move him down the line too, as I'd rather see a typier horse in that class - i.e. a sports horse or a traditional, rather than a trimmed cob, as that's my personal opinion.

You may have been marked higher in the other class(es) because your horse was closer to the type the judge preferred.

I've been showing a warmblood, who recently won the best young horse at the largest show in country. But we've been way down the line before too, because the judge didn't like her type. It's not something to get chewed up over - move on, appreciate that if you see the judges name on the programme maybe avoid that class. Or maybe the other horses were jut better? No one ever wants to think that about their horse, but hey - that's showing!
 
PolarSkye said:
Some judges ARE unfair - they can't help it - we all have personal preferences and it's inevitable that those creep in sometimes.

A few weeks ago, while Kal warmed up with Z, I watched a dressage test performed by a rider with very "busy" hands . . . she wasn't just sawing, she was independently rowing - however, her very lovely, genuine horse just ignored her, kept his head still and went round like an angel. Z rode Kal with impeccably quiet hands, but Kal is still quite green and was unsteady in his head. Of course I felt that Z did a better job b/c she rode "properly" - I have my own prejudices after all ;) . . . but what the judge saw was a nice still head, rather than nice still hands and the other combination beat us by some margin. That's dressage - and showing.

P
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The thing is, it's all judging the horse unless it's an equitation class (both showing and dressage). If the horse is going correctly, the rider could be sitting on its ears playing a banjo for all it will affect the marks... Al gets it too- she can ride well, but get considerably lower marks than someone riding badly on a horse going correctly if Reg is not feeling the twinkle toes vibe. They tend to penalise in the collectives for poor riding, but it won't change the fact the horse went well and so got good marks.

In terms of showing, it's literally asking someone to judge your horse. If your horse went overbent or pokey nosed, or has limited paces, it will get marked down. Or it could just be that he's not quite the judge's type.

I would really advise spending a day stewarding, and a day dressage writing, because it is enlightening and very helpful for how you present your horse, and for understanding marks. And speak to your judge afterwards and ask for advice... Since Al spent time doing that she can accurately predict her dressage marks and knows how best to show off Reg in the show ring.
 
My old retired show jumper years ago got into showing late in life but one week he won the in hand open riding horse then went riding horse champion beating the foal winner, the mare winner, the youngstock winner etc.

Next week, 8th in the hand riding horse. Judge that week preferred the lighter frame riding horse.

Smile and wave as they say!
 
In addition to what everyone else has said, if you can't understand why you have been placed where you have, choose a quiet moment after the class and ask the judge. Be very polite and unaccusing and you should get an honest answer. That answer may still be unfair (my favourite ever - I should have put black mascara on my cremello horse's eyelashes, okaaaaaaay...) but you might get a good answer with some constructive criticism.
 
horse.love92 said:
Clearly it's all about preference. A horse that was a similar build to my horse came 3rd !
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There is always going to be some subjectivity, and remember that for a lot of the smaller shows especially, most judges volunteer their time and I'm sure don't set out to be unfair. As others have said, do have a chat with the judge discretely at the end of the class. Don't forget though that build is not the same as conformation. I can't really tell much about the conformation of your horse from the pictures you have posted in your other thread (but you and he do look to be enjoying yourselves!), and I don't know what the other horses were like in the class. But two horses can have similar builds but be very different in terms of the quality of their conformation.
 
Or you could just face the fact that some judges are so incredibly bent no amount of ironinh will ever straighten them out. It's showing! I did an open ridden on class on my shettie - flawless walk, trot, canter, gallop as did the pony next to me. The winner? Walked 2 circuits of the ring, trotted 5 strides and that was it. The judge did come over and appologise afterwards saying that she judged it as a first ridden class to which I replied - if it were first ridden both myself abd the other girl were too old, we shouldnt have galloped and the other one should have cantered. She didn't have a reply and looked ever so sheepish but to stay in her (and every other shetland pony person in scotlands!) good books I said that I had no qualms about standing down to the pony to give the kid confidence as it wasn't a major show or qualifier. Face saved on all parts - til she gave it the ridden championship over the lead rein pony which did more trotting!

Lik it or lump it! The judge either preferred the other horses or humans. Get a tougher skin and kick on!
 
I've done both inhand and ridden showing in a breed class where there is a limited pool of other horses and ponies because of the class, back in 2004 I stood champion in hand at Royal Windsor with stable mates in Reserve and 4th in the class, following week, the line up had the exactly the same horses and ponies, the results were the complete opposite of Royal Windsor!

I used to go out with the aim of producing and turning out my ride that day to the highest standard I could and doing as well as I could. If I thought maybe there was something that had placed me down the line I'd politely ask the judge if there was anything I could do to improve for my next show.
 
That's showing for you! You're asking the judge on that day's opinion.

I remember one show I did riding a new forest for someone. He was the big, chunky type, did a foot perfect show and we were pulled in 6th which was behind several horses who did not do great shows. As the judge came down the line and awarded the rosettes she said great show but sorry I just like his type. I thanked her, made a note of her name and I now know not to compete any of the chunky foresters in classes she judges. I've asked for her opinion of the pony I'm riding by entering the class, no point getting upset if I don't agree with her.
 
It goes both ways with showing, sometimes you benefit from the judge's prpreferences/prejudices other times they work against you.

Perhaps the judge missed the incorrect lead and the winner is feeling a bit embarrassed now.

Certainly I have won a showing class I didn't feel I deserved to win. I was riding a heavy draft cross. He wasn't mine so it wasn't down to me that his very feathery legs were overdue a clip, or that he had been hogged leaving a forelock, or that the hog was growing out a touch, or that his noseband was a bit small and wouldn't stay fastened up. He was clean, but I was in a black jacket and skull cap.

We did a WH class (not cob or maxi cob) and won. I wasn't concerned about placing above thise who had a pole but was a bit embarrassed about beating a couple of very smart well turned out more typey horses who had gone clear and done decent shows.

The judge explained to me in front of everyone that the thing that swung it was that both me and the horse looked to be having such fun. He said he really wanted to ride the horse and would have loved to take him hunting and a working hunter had to look like they would give you a good days hunting above all else.

I'm sure thst the girl who came second was a bit miffed and didn't appreciate the working hunter being judged as if it were a "pony the judge would most like to take home class".

Judges all have their own ideas, that is showing.
 
I know nothing about showing but as far as I can see Orangehorse hit the nail on the head. You are exhibiting your horse (and yourself?). Just like at an art exhibition, everybody likes different pictures.
 
I don't know much about showing, I admit, but I was puzzled by one I was watching on Sunday. It was an in-hand class, riding horse I think. Three horses were in it, my favourite was a lovely chunky chestnut, nice stride and very well behaved. One of the others was a TB type, showed a few very nice strides in trot, but apart from that bucked, reared and cantered around the ring. The TB type won. I understand a lighter type is more suited to that type of class, but I would've expected the behaviour to move it down the line. :confused:
 
PolarSkye said:
On the flip side . . . years ago, my daughter took our share pony into a maxi cob show (mare had been put on the lorry purely as a companion for the other two horses who were competing - and the other two riders entered Em as a thank you for being so helpful with their two). Em was wearing all the wrong gear, Nell was brushed but not washed, tack was wrong. The judge really, really liked Nell and really wanted to place her, but felt he couldn't b/c it wouldn't have been fair to the other entries (who were all turned out within an inch of their lives). He said Nell gave him the best ride all day . . . but she didn't place. Fair enough.

That's judging/showing . . . you just have to be prepared to take the rough with the smooth.

P
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What a throughly nice judge - totally fair if you ask me :)
 
There will be reasons, but unless you asked, you will just have to try again. Quite a few showing peeps will make a note of the judges name and will then select their classes according to the judge.

I know I wasn't given a fair chance by one judge as he had decided that my ISH was a WB and he felt that WB's didn't have a place in the show ring :D In fairness, Rosie really didn't redeem herself, but I was lined up at the bottom of the 2nd row with all the other WB's of which one should've won IMO.

I watched a coloured class last weekend and the judge placed the more 'hunter' shaped over the traditionals. While I personally see her preference, there were 2 traditionals that were foot perfect, moved well with fantastic feather and mane/tails, but they were placed below the coloured hunters, one of which IMHO was too fat, and the other was not correct in it's movement.

It is hard work being a judge. You know that someone will not agree, and if you're lucky will suck it up and just boycott your class next time. Or they might just come onto a forum and call you unfair because they didn't win :D
 
I've only done local shows, by local riding clubs. some have had good judges who opinions I respected,,,, but I have had quite a few occasions when decisions have been interesting shall we say. not because my horse didn't win!
at one show it was technically best in condition, first place understood, but the horse who came in front of me actually trotted up lame. I know it's condition- but what good is a glossy coat when your horse is lame?
I decided to actually stop going to shows at one riding club, as in a riding horse class the horse who came first out of 6 was the worst, my family were watching and they have little knowledge of horses and they were confused at the decision, that's how obvious its faults were! all the other horses, including mine, did perfectly acceptable shows, the horse that placed first only just got into canter, bucked, was very stiff. funnily enough saw them chatting to their friend the judge before hand!!!
but other times I've had nice judges, who have explained what I can improve when I've asked at the end.
showing is impossible to perfect as every judges opinion is different, but I really only do it as I enjoy taking my horses out and showing them off. a pretty rosette is a bonus
 
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