Why are dressage judges 'anonymous'?

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I suppose it's a leftover from my days growing up with dog showing, where judges are listed when a schedule for a show is issued, but I don't understand why dressage judges are never shown? Sometimes I come away with a scrawled signature on my test sheet that I cannot decipher and I am left none the wiser who made the comments and gave me the marks :) just a random thought as I plan my next outing.
 
lamlyn2012 said:
There is a box at the top of the sheet where the judges name should be printed.
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yup, ive never had a blank one.
Virtually every show I go to shows the judges name at the top of the list of times for each class too :)

You can always ask the organisers.
 
i suppose my main point is that I will never know in advance which judge I will get? It is a subjective sport and I know there are some who will love my horse and some who won't?
 
People do phone up and ask before entering :)

FWIW I don't give the argument that some won't like my horse any weight ;) i've always had marmite kind of horses and I've never felt that we've been given a poor score that we didn't deserve. If a judge is critical of their way of going there is usually a home truth to take away from it, so I try to accept the feedback in the manner it is given and not take it personally :)

If you feel you are experiencing judging bias - 3 things:
1. video your test and watch it back with a clear head +/- your trainer to see if the comments are actually fair
2. speak to the organisers as they can only react if they get feedback
3. go affiliated! I REALLY don't believe there is a bias against a type at BD, if anything it is becoming more inclusive, and I say this as someone competing a nappy small welsh who parked next to CDJ at regionals last week. I wasn't laughed out of the arena ;)
 
The judge's name is always on the sheet whenever I have competed (rarely these days...). And often on the schedule too, although sometimes you have to ring up to find out.
 
Maybe it is just round here then, I've never seen a name on a schedule :)

As far as bias is concerned - I have mentioned it to the organisers, we aren't ready to go BD yet (I don't believe in wasting my money lol!) and I don't have anyone who can video ;(
 
Judges name should be printed at the top of the sheet.

the reason some sows don't put the judges up is because until the day they often don't know which judge is doing which class as it depends on entries - you may need 2 or 3 and the classes would split differently.
 
Lévrier;13501531 said:
i suppose my main point is that I will never know in advance which judge I will get? It is a subjective sport and I know there are some who will love my horse and some who won't?
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Centres don't always know exactly which judge will do which class. It often depends on the number of entries and timings as to how judges are split across classes on the day. I've never seen judges listed in schedules, but they are always on the board and on top of sheet out doing BD.
 
More to the point, competitors and horses should be nameless!

I have related this story before about when I was dressage writing for quite an important Regional event. The judge looked down the list of entries and noted that one of the horses was sired by her stallion. It was a very even class with not much between the competitors mostly. Only AFTER the horse sired by her stallion had completed the test and I handed her the sheet for judges comments did she realise, and proceeded to give the horse the best overall marks of the whole class, apart from the winner. It was enough to bring the horse into the rosettes and qualify. It was many years ago now, but I have always had a little chuckle about it and wondered how much of that sort of thing went on.
 
Lévrier;13501531 said:
It is a subjective sport and I know there are some who will love my horse and some who won't?
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Not something I've found at affiliated level. All my dressage sheets have judges name on them at top. I use these to read up on what a particular judge may focus on as they often have their own little things. Overall though the judging is fairly standard.
 
Have often seen judges names published before the comp and always have them on my sheets. From experience of organising dressage, sometimes judges bail out for valid reasons just before show to need to change them hence why not always published. But as others have said organisers will give you the names if you contact them.
 
I agree that judges normally put their name on the sheet.

But I had a friend who had a rather heavy cobby horse and found that some judged what they saw and others would hardly bother to judge her at all, so she tried to avoid them. She was competing at a high level - top hat and tails.
 
Sometimes I think it would be nice to know in advance as a dressage scribe, too :D!

I usually get on very well with 'my' judges, but there's one local one who is bat sheet crazy and a bit of a stirrer, who I would rather not scribe for again, ta very much.

IME, judges always sign their sheets after they write their comments, though the signature is not always legible :).
 
Agree with whats been said and I think for unaff maybe they know in less time about who will be judging?

At affiliated you should know who's judging at least on the day and you can ring up in advance. I've found even those that at first may have marked us harshly (marmite horse over here too) once we've really worked on all those niggly bits and made the improvement even our harshest critics have marked us highly. A judge back in our first novice days use to give us low 60's every time (even some sub 60 scores :eek3: when most others we were around the mid 60 mark), however when we became more established at that level he also gave us our highest ever score of 74%, so try not to discount an opinion of a judge, try to find out what it is they are looking for (and it will generally not be that they just want wow paces ;)).
 
Just to add it is the writers job to print the judges name at the top of the sheet with horse, rider and venue name etc (technically the judges responsibility to check that it is there but we do have a lot to do ;) ).
 
Batgirl said:
Just to add it is the writers job to print the judges name at the top of the sheet with horse, rider and venue name etc (technically the judges responsibility to check that it is there but we do have a lot to do ;) ).
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I've never been asked to do that? Just the name of horse and rider plus their number? Though I mostly scribe for BE.
 
Batgirl said:
Just to add it is the writers job to print the judges name at the top of the sheet with horse, rider and venue name etc (technically the judges responsibility to check that it is there but we do have a lot to do ;) ).
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Tiddlypom said:
I've never been asked to do that? Just the name of horse and rider plus their number? Though I mostly scribe for BE.
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Batgirl is right, it's the writer's responsibility to fill out the entire sheet except collectives and judge's comments (and total scores, obviously!).

I find that some judges value different aspects more highly - be that accuracy, impulsion, rhythm, whatever. That can give the effect of skewing the results in favour of a type of horse/particular way of going, though generally I've found that the type itself isn't a factor.
 
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milliepops said:
People do phone up and ask before entering :)

FWIW I don't give the argument that some won't like my horse any weight ;) i've always had marmite kind of horses and I've never felt that we've been given a poor score that we didn't deserve. If a judge is critical of their way of going there is usually a home truth to take away from it, so I try to accept the feedback in the manner it is given and not take it personally :)

If you feel you are experiencing judging bias - 3 things:
1. video your test and watch it back with a clear head +/- your trainer to see if the comments are actually fair
2. speak to the organisers as they can only react if they get feedback
3. go affiliated! I REALLY don't believe there is a bias against a type at BD, if anything it is becoming more inclusive, and I say this as someone competing a nappy small welsh who parked next to CDJ at regionals last week. I wasn't laughed out of the arena ;)
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You're lucky with your experiences then I would say!

I also have a marmite horse. I've had very personal and unjustified comments from a judge to the point where I won't waste an entry fee if I know she's judging. It's not just my horse, but all horses of his type. I don't risk getting those scores on my BD record now, so just compete elsewhere.

I have also had occasions where I'm marked harshly and it's all completely fair. With the non-flashy horses you don't get the free points for showing up that some horses seem to receive, but the rest of the scores are fair for an accurate but basic test.

A couple of the venues local to me now advertise which judges they have on the schedules. I think that's a good step forward.
Sometimes I think they don't advertise which judge it is in advance because some people would avoid a harsh marking judge or shop around for the more generous one!
 
The sheets are slightly different for BE - the Judges Name slot is at the bottom instead of the top and you should fill it in as a writer though some judges do as it is next to the signature box.
 
helenalbert said:
You're lucky with your experiences then I would say!

I also have a marmite horse. I've had very personal and unjustified comments from a judge to the point where I won't waste an entry fee if I know she's judging. It's not just my horse, but all horses of his type. I don't risk getting those scores on my BD record now, so just compete elsewhere.

I have also had occasions where I'm marked harshly and it's all completely fair. With the non-flashy horses you don't get the free points for showing up that some horses seem to receive, but the rest of the scores are fair for an accurate but basic test.

A couple of the venues local to me now advertise which judges they have on the schedules. I think that's a good step forward.
Sometimes I think they don't advertise which judge it is in advance because some people would avoid a harsh marking judge or shop around for the more generous one!
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Ah well I'm not *proud* of my BD record, I'm not a pro and I don't depend on it for my livelihood so if we get a lower score than usual that's not a problem ;) Round me there are definitely judges that pick up on something more than others, but I can't disagree with their comments, in the cold light of day, even if I wish they'd been more generous on the day.

I started BDing 12 years ago with a 15hh cob x and since then I've also ridden a TB eventer, an iberian and now a 14hh welsh at all levels from Prelim to AM... we divide opinion that's for sure but actually my favourite judge is one who is frequently regarded as being harsh- I think she is brave enough to give the scores we really deserve rather than just a long line of 6.5s. to see 9s and 3s on the same sheet is giving me useful feedback ;) and that's what I pay for.

FWIW the judges on the BD forum do say that competitors should give feedback to BD if they think there has been an issue with judging, I think there is a feedback form somewhere I think? If you truly believe there to be bias then I think it's quite important that this should be dealt with. ;)
 
milliepops said:
Ah well I'm not *proud* of my BD record, I'm not a pro and I don't depend on it for my livelihood so if we get a lower score than usual that's not a problem ;) Round me there are definitely judges that pick up on something more than others, but I can't disagree with their comments, in the cold light of day, even if I wish they'd been more generous on the day.

I started BDing 12 years ago with a 15hh cob x and since then I've also ridden a TB eventer, an iberian and now a 14hh welsh at all levels from Prelim to AM... we divide opinion that's for sure but actually my favourite judge is one who is frequently regarded as being harsh- I think she is brave enough to give the scores we really deserve rather than just a long line of 6.5s. to see 9s and 3s on the same sheet is giving me useful feedback ;) and that's what I pay for.

FWIW the judges on the BD forum do say that competitors should give feedback to BD if they think there has been an issue with judging, I think there is a feedback form somewhere I think? If you truly believe there to be bias then I think it's quite important that this should be dealt with. ;)
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I did complain to BD in my case. Thankfully my test was filmed so I and a few others wrote in. The opinion on my test was I was marked 20% below what they would have placed me at. So fairly extreme!

I absolutely agree with you on the other incidents. Sometimes you do get your score, it's a bit below what you felt but the comments are fair and accurate so you can see where they were coming from. You can't really complain about that!

But when you get a sheet that just says "boring horse" on it with no further comments it's a tad unhelpful. Or the ones that say "accurate test, obedient horse. Get a warmblood for higher marks" there's not much you take away from that!
 
Lévrier;13501579 said:
As far as bias is concerned - I have mentioned it to the organisers, we aren't ready to go BD yet (I don't believe in wasting my money lol!) and I don't have anyone who can video ;(
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Don't know what level you're competing at, but you can do BD prelim on a £30 club membership with free horse registration. We are nothing special and did our first one a couple of weeks ago, next one on Saturday! Nobody laughed at us or said we shouldn't be there and the judge's comments were spot on, constructive and really rather kind.
 
I have been advised by a trainer/judge to take all the hair off my Clydesdale cross to make him look more like a warmblood if I want to get the best scores. She thinks he is easily capable of advanced medium, but she obviously believes that not all judges can see through the hair to how the horse is actually going. I'm not going to, I love every hair of him :)
 
Micropony said:
Don't know what level you're competing at, but you can do BD prelim on a £30 club membership with free horse registration. We are nothing special and did our first one a couple of weeks ago, next one on Saturday! Nobody laughed at us or said we shouldn't be there and the judge's comments were spot on, constructive and really rather kind.
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I am actually a BD member and have registered my boy, but the entry fees are double (at least!) those of unaff dressage? Until we get our canter sorted there doesn't seem to be much point trying BD.

Unfortunately a lot of people seem to have missed my actual intention behind the post (clearly I didn't express myself properly!) - I don't get why dressage judges are not announced on schedules. A dog show judge never knows how many dogs they will have as an entry (for example my mum judged Crufts and got an entry far higher than usual, yep absolutely name dropping as a proud daughter!) but they just get on with it?
 
I think the bd venues have to agree their dates with bd way in advance though. There are schedules published until end August on the website at the moment ... i should imagine the judge juggling goes much closer to the wire ;)


Eta the higher up the levels, the tighter the squeeze. For my horses, reducing numbers of judges qualified at their respective levels. If a show runs up to a higher level, they need one of those judges in high demand because otherwise it's a pita for them to just come and judge a small class of psg, say, when They could have done the ele , med, am at as well... so even more juggling around availability
 
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lol my mum has just accepted a judging appointment for 2 years hence, which is very common at high levels with dog showing ;) mind you having experienced BD's efficiency or otherwise since I joined them I guess I can understand why that isn't a possibility....!!!
 
I should *imagine* that the top judges would agree the major fixtures first and then slot in the everyday shows but that's just speculation.. I do know that venue organisers sometimes struggle to get the right people in on the day so it's clearly not them just being obstructive. As mentioned before it's never a secret if you phone and ask ;)
 
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